Servere Issues - Aircraft Preformance?

[mdiehl]

I'm unimpressed by the example. First because it does not address my question. Assuming a Zero's optimal mvr is 29 at 252 mph, it ought to be something like 7 or 8 at 350 mph.
 
Second because I think the mvr and EXP ratings are a fantasy. They seem indexed to nothing in the real world.
 
Third because in the example provided, a Zeke below a P-40 and moving at some 40mph slower, you either have a Zeke looking at the back end of a P-40 as it walks away (and there's nothing the Zeke can do about it with a set-up as given) or else you start with a nose to nose engagement in which the Zeke is at a strong disadvantage. In most such circumstances, assuming that the P-40 driver is a typical 1942 USAAF advanced flight school grad with minumum combat air time, regardless of the pilot EXPs and MVRs, the P-40 would have a good first shot.

[1275psi]

ORIGINAL: 1275psi

actually -we don't think he does[8|]
Im actually looking forward to some one trying to tell our proffesional fighter pilot "that its not really like that"[:)][:)][:)][:)][:)]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'd like to see AE eliminate the "Zero bonus" entirely and bump all Allied exp levels 20 points across the board. As it stands, it already vastly exaggerates the quality of Japanese aviation.

So when is the last time you played?

It didn't take long did it[8|][8|][8|][8|][8|]

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'm unimpressed by the example. First because it does not address my question. Assuming a Zero's optimal mvr is 29 at 252 mph, it ought to be something like 7 or 8 at 350 mph.

Second because I think the mvr and EXP ratings are a fantasy. They seem indexed to nothing in the real world.

Third because in the example provided, a Zeke below a P-40 and moving at some 40mph slower, you either have a Zeke looking at the back end of a P-40 as it walks away (and there's nothing the Zeke can do about it with a set-up as given) or else you start with a nose to nose engagement in which the Zeke is at a strong disadvantage. In most such circumstances, assuming that the P-40 driver is a typical 1942 USAAF advanced flight school grad with minumum combat air time, regardless of the pilot EXPs and MVRs, the P-40 would have a good first shot.

Obviously, nothing will satisfy you. Elf could have reported that it was the 3 P-40s climbing to fire on the Zeke and if the Zeke got a good first shot, you would have been screaming about how unrealistic and ahistorical the example was.

Your attempt to denigrate Elf's example is laughable. Let's see... who should I believe.... a man who has read books on the subject or a man who has lived, and is living the life? Elf is a Navy LCDR who pilots F-18s for a living. He has a few years of doing this so should know what he is talking about. After all, I do believe Elf is a product of the very same combat flight schools that you use as basis to contradict his analysis.

Seriously, you state you have not played WitP in 4 years or more. That would put it somewhere around v1.3 if not earlier. Now, I can respect that you were not pleased with the game and decided not to play it. Fair enough. But it's been 4 years! Give it a rest please. The game has gone through many changes and is certainly a better product now than it was when released. It will be a much better product when AE is available but it isn't going to be perfect. It is still based on the same engine.

Your attempt to persuade falls short because you don't have the firsthand knowledge of the game in its current configuration, let alone AE. You're like a 16 year old with a new driver's license trying to tell a professional racecar driver how to race. And your constant pratter about how the allies should always best the Japanese is like a priest telling a married couple that the missionary position is the only way 2 people can have sex.

Chez

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'm unimpressed by the example. First because it does not address my question. Assuming a Zero's optimal mvr is 29 at 252 mph, it ought to be something like 7 or 8 at 350 mph.

Second because I think the mvr and EXP ratings are a fantasy. They seem indexed to nothing in the real world.

Third because in the example provided, a Zeke below a P-40 and moving at some 40mph slower, you either have a Zeke looking at the back end of a P-40 as it walks away (and there's nothing the Zeke can do about it with a set-up as given) or else you start with a nose to nose engagement in which the Zeke is at a strong disadvantage. In most such circumstances, assuming that the P-40 driver is a typical 1942 USAAF advanced flight school grad with minumum combat air time, regardless of the pilot EXPs and MVRs, the P-40 would have a good first shot.

Why do you think that MVR and EXP ratings are illusionary?


Regarding MVR:[

The combat aircraft most certainly have "Instantaneous Turn Rate" and "Sustained Turn Rate" and also there are complex graphs derived from speed, altitude and turn rate that can 100% depict and model aircraft performance - those graphs are very real and very very accurate!


Regarding EXP:

This is quite nice way of "judging" pilot's skill since pilots are not the same - some pilots have better "feel" of aircraft and can better utilize the true potential of airframe, better utilize the weapons on board, pay more attention to situation awareness, execute certain maneuvers better etc. !


Leo "Apollo11"

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I'm unimpressed by the example. First because it does not address my question. Assuming a Zero's optimal mvr is 29 at 252 mph, it ought to be something like 7 or 8 at 350 mph.

Second because I think the mvr and EXP ratings are a fantasy. They seem indexed to nothing in the real world.

Third because in the example provided, a Zeke below a P-40 and moving at some 40mph slower, you either have a Zeke looking at the back end of a P-40 as it walks away (and there's nothing the Zeke can do about it with a set-up as given) or else you start with a nose to nose engagement in which the Zeke is at a strong disadvantage. In most such circumstances, assuming that the P-40 driver is a typical 1942 USAAF advanced flight school grad with minumum combat air time, regardless of the pilot EXPs and MVRs, the P-40 would have a good first shot.

Obviously, nothing will satisfy you. Elf could have reported that it was the 3 P-40s climbing to fire on the Zeke and if the Zeke got a good first shot, you would have been screaming about how unrealistic and ahistorical the example was.

Your attempt to denigrate Elf's example is laughable. Let's see... who should I believe.... a man who has read books on the subject or a man who has lived, and is living the life? Elf is a Navy LCDR who pilots F-18s for a living. He has a few years of doing this so should know what he is talking about. After all, I do believe Elf is a product of the very same combat flight schools that you use as basis to contradict his analysis.

Seriously, you state you have not played WitP in 4 years or more. That would put it somewhere around v1.3 if not earlier. Now, I can respect that you were not pleased with the game and decided not to play it. Fair enough. But it's been 4 years! Give it a rest please. The game has gone through many changes and is certainly a better product now than it was when released. It will be a much better product when AE is available but it isn't going to be perfect. It is still based on the same engine.

Your attempt to persuade falls short because you don't have the firsthand knowledge of the game in its current configuration, let alone AE. You're like a 16 year old with a new driver's license trying to tell a professional racecar driver how to race. And your constant pratter about how the allies should always best the Japanese is like a priest telling a married couple that the missionary position is the only way 2 people can have sex.

Chez

Ok...I just blew Lucky Charms through my nose. Thanks for the funniest post I have read so far this morning.

[Lanconic]

It seems to me that NOTHING will make the poster happy, except to see the Japanese nerfed
into oblivion. He discounts pilots skill, in favor of plane design.

To summarize: The USA did everything right, the Japanese had nothing to compete.

Odd how they did so well if that is an accurate summation.

Japan invented RADAR for example. I see no one giving kudos for that.

[m10bob]

When ya use the green button, the only time you see the person blocked, is when the person has been quoted, somewhere.

[Nikademus]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11


Why do you think that MVR and EXP ratings are illusionary?

Because they don't favor the US plane and pilot. [;)]

[mdiehl]

Why do you think that MVR and EXP ratings are illusionary?

The "complex graphs" don't seem to be built into the game engine. If they were, the a.c.s various MVR ratings would be expressed as something like an equation rather than an integer, and one important variable would be the roll rate (not just the time in sustained turn). In a simpler world, the MVR rating would be a series of integers, rather than merely one integer.

The EXP rating as such is "illusory" in the sense that there has never been posted (to my knowledge, anyhow) a specific statement about the relationship between flight hours in training (in the various stages) and the consequent "as trained but not yet battle tested" EXP ratings. In a general sense, I agree that Japanese naval aviation and also USN naval aviation should have high initial EXP ratings. But whether that really breaks down to "and therefore a P-40 driver has a 37% chance of not flying his a.c. to its strengths" seems to me to be a rather arbitrary statement.

[mdiehl]

While it's true a P-40 at 330 mph could out turn a Zero also moving 330 mph, it would be very different if a diving P-40 at 330 mph tries to turn inside a Zero going 200 mph. Of course, the P-40 can continue the dive and escape and the Zero will have little chance to follow or even shoot, but a slow moving Zero could probably evade a diving P-40 as long as he knew the P-40 is coming.

Yes, I totally agree.

As an example there are plenty of stories from the Burma theater of Oscars (very similar to Zeros and if anything more manueverable at slower speeds) that were virtually unhittable when flown by a good pilot. The Oscar wasn't a danger, but could evade at will, even against multiple enemies, as long as he wanted (or had fuel remaining).

Yes, also true. And there's plenty of examples of same from the SoPac (I am recalling in particular a Ki-43 that essentially outmaneuvered a flight of P-38s until the latter got bored or used up their ammo IDNR. It was one of the anecdotes in FitS).

That said, cases where just because a slow plane is more maneuverable it will tend to escape were unusual, when the faster plane started out moving fast. The problem for P-40s was not that there were many instances in which a P-40 at high initial airspeeds kept trying to maneuver until the Zero had the advantage. It was rather more that in many of those early war combats, the P-40s (and Hurricanes) weren't moving all that fast when the combat began. I attribute much of Japan's early war aviation success to the range of their a.c. and the lack of good early warning in the Allied areas. The consequence was that the Japanese had a nasty habit of showing up when and where they were not expected. The consequence was a tendency in the early war for Japanese a.c. to catch allied fighters in relatively low energy states.

[mdiehl]

Elf is a Navy LCDR who pilots F-18s for a living.

How many hours has he spent in a P-40?

My point is that the issue is what these PARTICULAR historic aircraft could do at different airspeeds. One need not be an F-18 pilot to have a very good understanding of how these planes worked.

[ChezDaJez]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

Elf is a Navy LCDR who pilots F-18s for a living.

How many hours has he spent in a P-40?

My point is that the issue is what these PARTICULAR historic aircraft could do at different airspeeds. One need not be an F-18 pilot to have a very good understanding of how these planes worked.

Probably has as many hours as you do in a P-40.

Your question begs another... how many hours do you have in fighters?

Anecdotal knowledge is a far cry from actual experience. That's kind of like learning to fly from reading a book. Everything's fine until you hit the starter switch and actually have to do it.

Anyways, enough said. You have your opinions, we have ours.

Chez

[anarchyintheuk]

Attack mdiehl's opinions then, not him. It's just a courtesy.

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

While it's true a P-40 at 330 mph could out turn a Zero also moving 330 mph, it would be very different if a diving P-40 at 330 mph tries to turn inside a Zero going 200 mph. Of course, the P-40 can continue the dive and escape and the Zero will have little chance to follow or even shoot, but a slow moving Zero could probably evade a diving P-40 as long as he knew the P-40 is coming.

Yes, I totally agree.

Would you also agree that as long as the P-40 Maintains 330mph that the Zero could never shoot it down?

As an example there are plenty of stories from the Burma theater of Oscars (very similar to Zeros and if anything more manueverable at slower speeds) that were virtually unhittable when flown by a good pilot. The Oscar wasn't a danger, but could evade at will, even against multiple enemies, as long as he wanted (or had fuel remaining).

That said, cases where just because a slow plane is more maneuverable it will tend to escape were unusual, when the faster plane started out moving fast. The problem for P-40s was not that there were many instances in which a P-40 at high initial airspeeds kept trying to maneuver until the Zero had the advantage. It was rather more that in many of those early war combats, the P-40s (and Hurricanes) weren't moving all that fast when the combat began. I attribute much of Japan's early war aviation success to the range of their a.c. and the lack of good early warning in the Allied areas. The consequence was that the Japanese had a nasty habit of showing up when and where they were not expected. The consequence was a tendency in the early war for Japanese a.c. to catch allied fighters in relatively low energy states.

[/quote]
By this rational, though you don't come right out and say so, you should very much like this example as the P-40 is clocked at 293mph. This is almost 40 Mph slower than the airspeed you totally agree is key to a P-40 outmanuevering a Zeke. Meanwhile our Zeke, er I should say Zekes are all around 240mph which is a good A/S for them particularly since they are climbing to meet the Warhawk. They have extra air speed and can perform an --e-g- e-c--si-- & using _________ to help to bring their noses around in a Lo to ______ merge. If they ______ turn this P-40 they can bring their Weapons to bear fairly quickly. <---(Fill in the Blanks)

As a side note the speed you see above is including a bonus for altitude, after being modified by various relevant factors. The point being that the P-40 must have been slow to begin with if after all the possible modifiers it can only manage 293 at the point of combat. Seems to match up well with all your typical-1942-USAAF-advanced-flight-school-grad-with-minumum-combat-air -time points to avoid.

I'm not interested in a debate, I just couldn't let an enormous contradiction like this go unnoticed.

The P-40 in this case is also outnumbered 4 to 1.

Standing by to hear this one...but not really...[8|]

[mdiehl]

Would you also agree that as long as the P-40 Maintains 330mph that the Zero could never shoot it down?

I'd "never say never." A diving Zeke could close in on 400 mph. It was horrid to maneuver, but if it were dive overtaking a P-40 moping along at 330 it could hit the P-40, given enough time between initiation of attack and P-40 driver's response. That is basically the same observation I made about the P-40 closing in on a slow moving Zeke. Something like an "likely miss because the high exp pilot in the high mvr plane may be presumed to evade" doesn't make much sense to me because that's not how it turned out, most of the time, when highly maneuverable Zekes fought against faster but less maneuverable P-38s and other fast types.

By this rational, though you don't come right out and say so, you should very much like this example as the P-40 is clocked at 293mph. This is almost 40 Mph slower than the airspeed you totally agree is key to a P-40 outmanuevering a Zeke.

I think you misunderstand. I don't agree that the P-40 has to be going 332 to outmaneuver a Zeke. The Zeke was progressively less maneuverable as airspeed increased. F4F wildcat drivers found, by experience, that the key was to keep IAS above 280 mph. Erik Shilling (among others) wrote that the P-40 could outroll the Zeke at most combat airspeeds. And because you are a pilot, you know well that the speed with which a plane can roll does in part very strongly affect the speed at which it can bring a plane into its gunsight or get out of another plane's gunsight.

Meanwhile our Zeke, er I should say Zekes are all around 240mph which is a good A/S for them particularly since they are climbing to meet the Warhawk.

I don't see how that is good for them. Any initial maneuver they can make isn't going to increase their energy state. In contrast, any maneuver the P-40 makes will be compensated for by increased energy from the descent. The only time in which the initial set up starts to favor the Zero is if the P-40 in the head to head misses his target and turns to re-engage while still in close proximity to the Zero(s). If the P-40 just dives through and the Zeroes pursue, the P-40 can turn the tables on them, because above around 280 mph that P-40 (and it seems F4Fs as well) can turn with the Zero and stay with it long enough to get hits. At that point, the very lightweight construction of the Zero, the rather good US deflection shooting training, and the rather high energy of the .50 BMG, become telling factors.

The point being that the P-40 must have been slow to begin with if after all the possible modifiers it can only manage 293 at the point of combat.

OK. If you said the Zero has the edge at 250 mph I'd agree. In my view, at 293 the P-40 has the edge. Obviously what matters here is how long the combat lasts. If it stays a turning engagement, the whole fight is going to move into the window at which the Zero(s) are favored.

I'm not interested in a debate, I just couldn't let an enormous contradiction like this go unnoticed.

There was no contradiction. Therefore any noticing was an error on the noticer's part.

The P-40 in this case is also outnumbered 4 to 1.

Which begs the question why he's presumed to opt for a turning engagement rather than simply dive through and keep going.

[m10bob]

A study in combat, Zeke vs the P 40...All please enjoy..


http://www.chuckhawks.com/p-40_vs_zero.htm

[Big B]

Well, that certainly doesn't undercut the positives that people have said about the old P-40.

ORIGINAL: m10bob

A study in combat, Zeke vs the P 40...All please enjoy..


http://www.chuckhawks.com/p-40_vs_zero.htm

[1275psi]

Funniest thing about this to me is that it seems to me that someone has the view that WITP features a fantastic, non historical super zero plane

after hitting just mid 42 8 times in pbem now - WITP sure does not have a super zero -zero losses against non sir robin opponents have always been huge -1 to 1, or worse than the allies.

The zero is not over rated -the game has it pretty right -AE will get it better.

but then again to comment on the zero in how its represented in the game you need to have played a few (not read a few iether AARs are biased).

Complaining about the air model when
a/ we haven't seen it
b/ have'nt played it
c/ sweated bricks putting all our experience and skill into programming it, drawing on proffessional skill and ability

is a rude insult to guys who are doing a mighty job trying to bring us the greatest simulation we could ever hope for

If the GAME was reflecting massive superiority in the zeros (especially in some of the mods we all -well many of us-play ) then there would be reason to go ape about it.
But it doesn't.

All this bitching , based on ONE given test result -is really laughable

Giggle, giggle, giggle.

[bradfordkay]

1275psi wrote: " Complaining about the air model when
a/ we haven't seen it
b/ have'nt played it
c/ sweated bricks putting all our experience and skill into programming it, drawing on proffessional skill and ability

is a rude insult to guys who are doing a mighty job trying to bring us the greatest simulation we could ever hope for "

Very well said.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The "complex graphs" don't seem to be built into the game engine. If they were, the a.c.s various MVR ratings would be expressed as something like an equation rather than an integer, and one important variable would be the roll rate (not just the time in sustained turn). In a simpler world, the MVR rating would be a series of integers, rather than merely one integer.

#1
In current WitP we have one (1) MVR value regardless of aircraft speed and/or altitude.

Also we have no idea if speed modifies MVR at all.

That was rather simplistic and I agree with that statement (I and many other suggested years ago multiple values).


#2
In future WitP-AE there will be five (5) MVR values depending on aircraft altitude and, even more, the MVR will be modified by speed (judged from most excellent Elf's narratory examples)! [:)]

This combined will give us "performance graph" (5 basic dots plus speed variable!!!) which is FANTASTIC thing for such broad strategic game and is, as far as I know, never ever done in any similar complex wargame of such magnitude! [:D]


Therefore I give my biggest salute to Elf and all other hard working WitP-AE programmers! [&o][&o][&o]


Leo "Apollo11"