US entry question

[brian brian]

this thread is silly. it doesn't matter who controls the NEI. The US can play the oil embargo if the NEI is a Vichy colony, if Amsterdam still holds the BEF+Royal Engineers backed by a half dozen battleships, if the Dutch gov't-in-exile is living in London (or Guiana or Batavia), if it is a Free French colony, if a Russia at war with Japan launched a communist coup in the minds of the other Allied players and is the controlling major power, or if it is still neutral, and I really doubt Harry would ever rule otherwise, nor add new Japan<>Vichy options to rule 17 or 13. the Trade Agreement rule is a rule with any exceptions spelled out in the rules. This is not some rules trick activated by not having the CW align the place. It is a strategy available to the USA in every single game of World in Flames; no rules clarification or rules mod required. one thing no one has mentioned is that you might, however, get the Germans to collapse Vichy before the US is in the war, and that is probably worth two more entry chits. but Germany might not do that either. another upside is you might somehow panic the Japanese player.

if the USA wants to run up the US Entry level against Japan real fast (and that might take a while with 1940 chits) just to cut off Japan's oil for a year, Japan could respond once they see it coming by building their SYNTH plants perhaps a bit early, taking the Saudi oil, saving as much as they can, and then beating on the Chinese with leg units (perhaps just surrounding their cities) for a long time. meanwhile the European Axis would be cheering as they throttle the Russians or even the British (both likely ineligible for western aid) while the US struggles to build up the European entry level and tension required to join the war. (plus the CW could be down perhaps 15 BPs worth of very useful assets all through the early war and could not enter Vichy territory until war with Japan arrives at the Japanese player's choice). if the US goes with a normal set of entry options building up tension in both pools, by the time they can declare the oil embargo, it is just about time for Japan to declare war on them anyway, or risk a successful US declaration; normally Japan saves up some oil to cover these few turns. this is a standard calculus in any game of WiF and I don't see how a Vichy NEI changes it very much, nor do I think a pure-embargo entry strategy is very common either. In a Gibraltar campaign, Germany might prefer to collapse Vichy immediately regardless. During an oil embargo, Japan might be prepared to DoW one of the CW, Free France, or a neutral NEI anyway. if the Free French hold it (60% chance aside from Germany's decision on collapsing Vichy) they could hardly even fight back against the Japanese, not that the CW can do that much either, but they still have a lot more options on that than the Free French would. And you might have to make this align-the-Netherlands choice as early as the third impulse of the game, long before you can detect the German overall strategy.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: brian brian
... (plus the CW could be down perhaps 15 BPs worth of very useful assets all through the early war and could not enter Vichy territory until war with Japan arrives at the Japanese player's choice).

As long as the Allies are not dumb enough to make Vichy hostile, they can DoW Vichy and occupy all her terrritory (except NEI prior to US entry option 43) that they are capable of and Vichy still can't lend resources to the axis.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

this thread is silly. it doesn't matter who controls the NEI. The US can play the oil embargo if the NEI is a Vichy colony, if Amsterdam still holds the BEF+Royal Engineers backed by a half dozen battleships, if the Dutch gov't-in-exile is living in London (or Guiana or Batavia), if it is a Free French colony, if a Russia at war with Japan launched a communist coup in the minds of the other Allied players and is the controlling major power, or if it is still neutral, and I really doubt Harry would ever rule otherwise, nor add new Japan<>Vichy options to rule 17 or 13. the Trade Agreement rule is a rule with any exceptions spelled out in the rules. This is not some rules trick activated by not having the CW align the place. It is a strategy available to the USA in every single game of World in Flames; no rules clarification or rules mod required. one thing no one has mentioned is that you might, however, get the Germans to collapse Vichy before the US is in the war, and that is probably worth two more entry chits. but Germany might not do that either. another upside is you might somehow panic the Japanese player.

Oil embargo or not, if NEI goes Vichy, the Japanese cannot sail in and grab the 4 oil resources when they feel like it. So they are oil starved as long as Vichy exists from mid-game onward. As Japan I build the two synths asap regardless.

The two upsides you mention for the Allies do not seem all that silly.

[brian brian]

what I meant was calls to 'change the game' are a little too much, nor is this a dangerous new rules exploit requiring Australian intervention; the oil embargo strategy is always an option for the USA. unless the USA decides to do the embargo, little changes with NEI Vichy. given no embargo, or an embargo shortly before war, what the Allies will get is a very quick end to the existence of Vichy France once Germany and the US are at war. this is perhaps something the Axis might already want, so they could jump into the power vaccuum themselves; it could be especially appealing if the CW hadn't declared war to keep Vichy from going active and cutting off the CW oil when they could have been making easy progress retaking the Vichy colonies. or maybe the Allies will want this at the time, but that is hard to know when they have to make the Netherlands alignment decision far earlier in the game.

to me, the minuses for the Allies outweigh the pluses of this 'pressure' on the Japanese. I hope my next Allied opponent tries this.

I am more scared of CW reinforcing Pacific or NEI options than this idea or the embargo, and Vichy NEI takes that CW reinforce NEI action one off the table....err maybe. I could see a broken code gasket when the Allies try to play USE option 43 on a Vichy NEI.

[paulderynck]

Changing the game isn't necessary. What is necessary is receiving clarifications on the following:

1. Should the Netherlands minors follow the disposition of which one became the Dutch home country (meaning one roll, not two, under Admin Groups).
2. If the Dutch home country became France does it follow that it would be Vichy or Free French upon Vichyfication? If Vichy, players could guarantee a Vichy NEI. If FF, players could guarantee a FF NEI. That is; along with the assumption the Dutch minors follow the government-in-exile and don't roll separately.
3. Does a neutral Vichy NEI give 2 oil to the CW because of the FAQ question Micheljq quoted in post #73 and/or because the Netherlands became neutral again?
4. Is there any possibility that a Vichy NEI would ignore the Oil Embargo?

IMO RAW already answers #1 and #4 both as 'No' although it may not have been written anticipating this development. IMO #2 and #3 need clarification, so why not go for all four.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Changing the game isn't necessary. What is necessary is receiving clarifications on the following:

1. Should the Netherlands minors follow the disposition of which one became the Dutch home country (meaning one roll, not two, under Admin Groups).
2. If the Dutch home country became France does it follow that it would be Vichy or Free French upon Vichyfication? If Vichy, players could guarantee a Vichy NEI. If FF, players could guarantee a FF NEI. That is; along with the assumption the Dutch minors follow the government-in-exile and don't roll separately.
3. Does a neutral Vichy NEI give 2 oil to the CW because of the FAQ question Micheljq quoted in post #73 and/or because the Netherlands became neutral again?
4. Is there any possibility that a Vichy NEI would ignore the Oil Embargo?

IMO RAW already answers #1 and #4 both as 'No' although it may not have been written anticipating this development. IMO #2 and #3 need clarification, so why not go for all four.

Here is one you might want to add to your list:

If France has added the Netherland units to its force pool this would include Netherland units.

Move all French controlled non-naval units and markers on the production circle to Metropolitan Vichy France.

[peskpesk]

Big, sigh about this NEI Vichy controlled oil embargo trick [:(]

IMO IF NEI was Vichy controlled, historical would Japan have occupied it when the oil embargo came anyway, (although I’m not sure that a Vichy controlled NEI would have followed the US/Western allied demand of an oil embargo in the first place). The gamy trick of forcing the Axis to collapse the Vichy government in order for the Japanese to be able to secure the vital oil is unacceptable and breaks the intent of the game! Remember IMO. [:)]

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Big, sigh about this NEI Vichy controlled oil embargo trick [:(]

IMO IF NEI was Vichy controlled, historical would Japan have occupied it when the oil embargo came anyway, (although I’m not sure that a Vichy controlled NEI would have followed the US/Western allied demand of an oil embargo in the first place). The gamy trick of forcing the Axis to collapse the Vichy government in order for the Japanese to be able to secure the vital oil is unacceptable and breaks the intent of the game! Remember IMO. [:)]

Personally I think this makes more sense.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Here is one you might want to add to your list:

If France has added the Netherland units to its force pool this would include Netherland units.

Move all French controlled non-naval units and markers on the production circle to Metropolitan Vichy France.

No, this is already covered under Incomplete Conquest: "Remove from the game all the conquered home county’s land and aircraft units that are in the conquered home country. Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map."

What you quoted was under the heading "French Units" although it is questionable then why the wording "French controlled" is used. But the only time this would matter is if the Netherlands is DoW'd and conquered in the same turn as France is Vichied. Conquest occurs before Vichy in the Sequence of Play so all the Netherlands units on the spiral and in the French force pool are gone. This would not apply to the NEI Militia if it were sitting on the spiral for next turn however, since NEI is not conquered. The wording you quoted would say move it to Metropolitan Vichy France, but Militia units can only be placed in their named city.

[morgil]

But if NEI goes FF, and Dutch Guyana (as new Netherlands home country) goes Vichy, then CW still gets the 2 Oil, being shipped to Russia, as Netherlands are now Neutral.
That is, Netherlands are still at war with Germany, only they are being controlled out of Vichy, that is German controlled, so they deside to not fight, except the units in NEI that are FF controlled, that is controlled by the Russian player, giving Oil to Japan that they are at war with.
Now my head really hurts...

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Changing the game isn't necessary. What is necessary is receiving clarifications on the following:

1. Should the Netherlands minors follow the disposition of which one became the Dutch home country (meaning one roll, not two, under Admin Groups).
2. If the Dutch home country became France does it follow that it would be Vichy or Free French upon Vichyfication? If Vichy, players could guarantee a Vichy NEI. If FF, players could guarantee a FF NEI. That is; along with the assumption the Dutch minors follow the government-in-exile and don't roll separately.
3. Does a neutral Vichy NEI give 2 oil to the CW because of the FAQ question Micheljq quoted in post #73 and/or because the Netherlands became neutral again?
4. Is there any possibility that a Vichy NEI would ignore the Oil Embargo?

IMO RAW already answers #1 and #4 both as 'No' although it may not have been written anticipating this development. IMO #2 and #3 need clarification, so why not go for all four.

3) No. Once Netherlands enters war it is no longer neutral and then the trade agreement with CW is cancelled. There is no mention in the rules that Netherlands are forced into a new trade agreement if they are once again neutral. Note that the rule say that the trade agreement continue untill the the "event" that is specified below.

Cut from.
5.1 Trade agreements
Trade agreements are agreements automatically in place between countries at the start of each game. They continue until either country involved in the trade agreement is completely conquered or as specified below.
Netherlands
A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.

4) Harry has already answered this question in FAQ.
Q5.1-1 5.1 Are Trade Agreements cancelled upon
(a) Incomplete Conquest?
(b) Complete Conquest?
(c) Vichyfication?
A: (a) No
(b) yes
(c) no. Date 05/07/2007

EDIT: Note that all the trade agreements for the minor countries are cancelled when the minor in question enters war except the agreement between Japan and Netherlands.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Changing the game isn't necessary. What is necessary is receiving clarifications on the following:

1. Should the Netherlands minors follow the disposition of which one became the Dutch home country (meaning one roll, not two, under Admin Groups).
2. If the Dutch home country became France does it follow that it would be Vichy or Free French upon Vichyfication? If Vichy, players could guarantee a Vichy NEI. If FF, players could guarantee a FF NEI. That is; along with the assumption the Dutch minors follow the government-in-exile and don't roll separately.
3. Does a neutral Vichy NEI give 2 oil to the CW because of the FAQ question Micheljq quoted in post #73 and/or because the Netherlands became neutral again?
4. Is there any possibility that a Vichy NEI would ignore the Oil Embargo?

IMO RAW already answers #1 and #4 both as 'No' although it may not have been written anticipating this development. IMO #2 and #3 need clarification, so why not go for all four.

3) No. Once Netherlands enters war it is no longer neutral and then the trade agreement with CW is cancelled. There is no mention in the rules that Netherlands are forced into a new trade agreement if they are once again neutral. Note that the rule say that the trade agreement continue untill the the "event" that is specified below.

Cut from.
5.1 Trade agreements
Trade agreements are agreements automatically in place between countries at the start of each game. They continue until either country involved in the trade agreement is completely conquered or as specified below.
Netherlands
A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.

4) Harry has already answered this question in FAQ.
Q5.1-1 5.1 Are Trade Agreements cancelled upon
(a) Incomplete Conquest?
(b) Complete Conquest?
(c) Vichyfication?
A: (a) No
(b) yes
(c) no. Date 05/07/2007

EDIT: Note that all the trade agreements for the minor countries are cancelled when the minor in question enters war except the agreement between Japan and Netherlands.

Like Obermeister I hope we see an inclusive answer from Harry. How can we be positive that a neutral Vichy controlling the Netherlands home country would not make the Netherlands neutral again? All RAW says is: "A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil." and "Trade agreements... continue until either country involved in the trade agreement is completely conquered or as specified..."

Indeed from the FAQ, if a trade agreement is not cancelled by incomplete conquest or Vichyfication, then doesn't that promote the view that a once again neutral Netherlands must resume sending the oil? I'm not saying it does or does not, I'm saying it's open to question.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Changing the game isn't necessary. What is necessary is receiving clarifications on the following:

1. Should the Netherlands minors follow the disposition of which one became the Dutch home country (meaning one roll, not two, under Admin Groups).
2. If the Dutch home country became France does it follow that it would be Vichy or Free French upon Vichyfication? If Vichy, players could guarantee a Vichy NEI. If FF, players could guarantee a FF NEI. That is; along with the assumption the Dutch minors follow the government-in-exile and don't roll separately.
3. Does a neutral Vichy NEI give 2 oil to the CW because of the FAQ question Micheljq quoted in post #73 and/or because the Netherlands became neutral again?
4. Is there any possibility that a Vichy NEI would ignore the Oil Embargo?

IMO RAW already answers #1 and #4 both as 'No' although it may not have been written anticipating this development. IMO #2 and #3 need clarification, so why not go for all four.

3) No. Once Netherlands enters war it is no longer neutral and then the trade agreement with CW is cancelled. There is no mention in the rules that Netherlands are forced into a new trade agreement if they are once again neutral. Note that the rule say that the trade agreement continue untill the the "event" that is specified below.

Cut from.
5.1 Trade agreements
Trade agreements are agreements automatically in place between countries at the start of each game. They continue until either country involved in the trade agreement is completely conquered or as specified below.
Netherlands
A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil.

4) Harry has already answered this question in FAQ.
Q5.1-1 5.1 Are Trade Agreements cancelled upon
(a) Incomplete Conquest?
(b) Complete Conquest?
(c) Vichyfication?
A: (a) No
(b) yes
(c) no. Date 05/07/2007

EDIT: Note that all the trade agreements for the minor countries are cancelled when the minor in question enters war except the agreement between Japan and Netherlands.

Like Obermeister I hope we see an inclusive answer from Harry. How can we be positive that a neutral Vichy controlling the Netherlands home country would not make the Netherlands neutral again? All RAW says is: "A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil." and "Trade agreements... continue until either country involved in the trade agreement is completely conquered or as specified..."

Indeed from the FAQ, if a trade agreement is not cancelled by incomplete conquest or Vichyfication, then doesn't that promote the view that a once again neutral Netherlands must resume sending the oil? I'm not saying it does or does not, I'm saying it's open to question.

I have no trouble with having Harry answer this question. But if he does not...

My point is that the rule says the trade agreement continues untill a specified event happens. After that event has happened the trade agreement is no longer in effect. Then it matters not if Netherlands once more becomes neutral or not. There is no rule for a forced new trade agreement.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

No, this is already covered under Incomplete Conquest: "Remove from the game all the conquered home county’s land and aircraft units that are in the conquered home country. Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map."

What you quoted was under the heading "French Units" although it is questionable then why the wording "French controlled" is used. But the only time this would matter is if the Netherlands is DoW'd and conquered in the same turn as France is Vichied. Conquest occurs before Vichy in the Sequence of Play so all the Netherlands units on the spiral and in the French force pool are gone. This would not apply to the NEI Militia if it were sitting on the spiral for next turn however, since NEI is not conquered. The wording you quoted would say move it to Metropolitan Vichy France, but Militia units can only be placed in their named city.

Yes, it is covered under Incomplete Conquest.

If the unit is not in the Netherlands at the time of Incomplete Conquest:

If a unit’s original home country is conquered and not yet liberated, remove it from the game if it is destroyed while out of supply. Roll a die if it is destroyed in supply ~ remove it from the game on a ‘5’ or less; otherwise return it to the force pools.

A primary supply source for a unit is:
• any friendly city in the unit’s unconquered home country; or
• for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
• any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1).

3. Units from a minor country co-operate with units from its controlling major power or minor country.


And it’s in the CRT too.

S - Remove remaining defending units that could retreat. They arrive as reinforcements in the next game turn. Destroy units that cannot retreat

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Yes, it is covered under Incomplete Conquest.

If the unit is not in the Netherlands at the time of Incomplete Conquest:

If a unit’s original home country is conquered and not yet liberated, remove it from the game if it is destroyed while out of supply. Roll a die if it is destroyed in supply ~ remove it from the game on a ‘5’ or less; otherwise return it to the force pools.

A primary supply source for a unit is:
• any friendly city in the unit’s unconquered home country; or
• for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
• any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1).

3. Units from a minor country co-operate with units from its controlling major power or minor country.


And it’s in the CRT too.

S - Remove remaining defending units that could retreat. They arrive as reinforcements in the next game turn. Destroy units that cannot retreat

I am sorry. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Yes, it is covered under Incomplete Conquest.

If the unit is not in the Netherlands at the time of Incomplete Conquest:

If a unit’s original home country is conquered and not yet liberated, remove it from the game if it is destroyed while out of supply. Roll a die if it is destroyed in supply ~ remove it from the game on a ‘5’ or less; otherwise return it to the force pools.

A primary supply source for a unit is:
• any friendly city in the unit’s unconquered home country; or
• for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
• any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1).

3. Units from a minor country co-operate with units from its controlling major power or minor country.


And it’s in the CRT too.

S - Remove remaining defending units that could retreat. They arrive as reinforcements in the next game turn. Destroy units that cannot retreat

I am sorry. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The point I'm making is that there could still be Netherlands units available to be placed in Metropolitan Vichy France even though the Netherlands has been Incompletely Conquered.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Yes, it is covered under Incomplete Conquest.

If the unit is not in the Netherlands at the time of Incomplete Conquest:

If a unit’s original home country is conquered and not yet liberated, remove it from the game if it is destroyed while out of supply. Roll a die if it is destroyed in supply ~ remove it from the game on a ‘5’ or less; otherwise return it to the force pools.

A primary supply source for a unit is:
• any friendly city in the unit’s unconquered home country; or
• for a Commonwealth unit, any friendly city in another unconquered Commonwealth home country; or
• any friendly city in an unconquered home country of a major power the unit co-operates with (see 18.1).

3. Units from a minor country co-operate with units from its controlling major power or minor country.


And it’s in the CRT too.

S - Remove remaining defending units that could retreat. They arrive as reinforcements in the next game turn. Destroy units that cannot retreat

I am sorry. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The point I'm making is that there could still be Netherlands units available to be placed in Metropolitan Vichy France even though the Netherlands has been Incompletely Conquered.

No. If they were spiralled in the turn of Vichyfication they are removed from the game in the Conquest step. They are gone before Vichy is declared. Same thing if they are in the French force pool. As I mentioned earlier the only unit that is in an oddball state is the NEI Militia and that can only happen if the Netherlands is DoW'd and conquered and Vichy is declared all in the same turn. If that ever happens in one of our games and we can't agree on what to do with the NEI Militia, we'll ask Harry then.

May I ask if you have ever played WiFFE ?

[Extraneous]

"Remove from the game all the conquered home county’s land and aircraft units that are in the conquered home country.

Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map."


And what happens if the units were not in the Netherlands?


"All other units remain where they are."


Reinforcement Stage

This is the stage when new units and markers you built in earlier game turns will arrive on the map.


Shattered units arrive as reinforcements the same as a new unit. They would be on the production sprial.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map."

Construction circle is "not on the map", this is what Paul is saying IMO.

[Extraneous]

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

May I ask if you have ever played WiFFE ?

Yes.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
Remove from the game all of its land and aircraft units not on the map."

Construction circle is "not on the map", this is what Paul is saying IMO.

I not disagreeing with that at all.


My point is:

If the units were not in their minor country at the time of Incomplete Conquest and shattered the turn before Vichy France is installed

Or if the minor country is not conqured and its units were in the production circle when Vichy France is installed.


They would be on the production circle to be moved to Metropolitan Vichy France.