Japanese Death Star Artillery

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by jwilkerson »

ORIGINAL: Feltan

The issue isn't the effectiveness of the artillery, nor even guns wearing out (which they would) -- rather, it is an issue of doctrine and logistics in general.

The Japanese military historically was not trained for mass fires. Like most countries (other than the U.S. and U.K.), the Japanese did not have the concept of a Fire Direction Center (FDC) that could concentrate the fires of multiple units on a single target. Each unit had a Forward Observer that used a common point of reference to direct fire (i.e., I see the church steeple, you see the church steeple, aim at 320 degrees 3 KM from said point). A single artillery unit normally supported a single ground maneuver unit. This is primarily the method used by the Japanese, Germans, Russians and most other countries during this period. A corallary to this was a planned fire scheme that was based on pre-sited coordinates. The aforementioned doctrine is effective and simple, it doesn't require detailed maps, it doesn't require radio communication (normally used land line) but precludes the effective quick massing of fire. Hence, the effect of multiple regiments of artillery in a Japanese attack would not be equal to the sum of the parts -- each added unit would only add a fraction of its strength to the attack. Perhaps a simple way to model this would be to restrict the number of artillery units to the number of land units, with no more than a regiment of artillery per infantry division in support.

The logistics is a bit more straight forward. Units normally did not stockpile enough ammo for multi-day bombardments. However -- they could and sometimes did. I agree witht he postings that state a heftier supply consumption is in order. It is. I don't have a handy reference to state what a normal Japanese basic load consisted of -- but I would venture to guess it was no more than several dozen rounds per tube. Enough for sustain fire for a few hours at most. More could be brought in, but we are talking a more substantial logistic effort than is portrayed in the game. For a dozen artillery regiments, we are talking a significant tonnage of shells for a multi-day sustained bombardment. The game currently doesn't do a good job of modelling this.

Lastly, one could safely assume within the context of the game -- if mulitple tons of supply were being shipped in to support a bombardment, that some small percentage of that tonnage would be replacement tubes for the guns. Such an item is major end item replacement, and is generally part of the supply chain. So, I don't see a special problem with that issue once the logistics is made more realistic.

Regards,
Feltan

Have you read Nomonhan? I was actually surprised at the "sophistication" of IJA Artillery capability presented in that story. Certainly not "modern mobile battle" capable - but multiple artillery units operating together at least. Perhaps Nomonhan is mostly "Russian versus Japanese" a la a WWI capability - but the Nomonhan example is not one that would be familiar with those who only known about IJA artillery capabilities as demonstrated in the "Pacific" sense there were very few cases of massed IJA artillery in the Pacific!

As to logistics, a basic calculation for 105mm would be, 33 lbs per round, 4 rounds per minute (sustained rate of fire), 50 minutes per hour sustained. This results in 200 rounds per hour or 6600 pounds per hour or 3.3 tons per hour. If a WITP/AE supply point is one "ton" then this would be 3.3 supply points per hour. So then if we assume a game "bombardment" is 2 hours long, then this would be 6.6 supply points per tube per bombardment. Or for an artillery park (about 4 regiments worth) of 100 tubes, this would be 660 supply points per bombardments.

In some of the examples we see in this thread, the cost would be 2 to 4 times this amount. Also we might want to factor in the supply cost of getting the rounds to the guns. If any mechanized transport is used this cost could be a significant amount.

But a case can thus be made for dramtically increasing the supply cost of "bombardments" and I'm sure this will be considered for the future.

In the interim, if players see too much concentration of artillery, they can try a combination of house rules and also spreading out of the defenders to avoid concentrated targets for concentrations of artillery.
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RE: Q-Ball vs. Canoerebel (poor Q-Ball)

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I might be disappointed if she wasn't a vegetarian, and could act worth a crap.[:D]

Seriously, after her performance in Star Wars I, I wanted the Empire to win. At least they have a pair.

Hopefully Jar Jar was on Alderon when it was toasted.

I guess this is getting a little OT from modelling of Japanese Artillery....
Not at all, Q-ball.

The Death Star's beam was totally overrated in Star Wars. It should have used much more supply.
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by tigercub »

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Well we did get the Death Star bombardment fleets fixed, so I guess this is what takes its place.

The fleet bombards were better, since they could only get coastal hexes. The Death Star Artillery can go anywhere.
I think they are over fixed!with good recon i am get poor return for effort after 3 months into the war can not say navy bombardment is what it should be.

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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by Walloc »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

In the interim, if players see too much concentration of artillery, they can try a combination of house rules and also spreading out of the defenders to avoid concentrated targets for concentrations of artillery.

As too the 2nd part i dont think its very sound. First it effect means u hafta give up ur cities and there by ur supply. Atop spreaing out is easily counted by a jap player too. All the evidence i've seen in AARs and my experience tells me. If chinease spead out u just see a death star of 4-5 jap division going around beating up the "spread" out forces. Exchanging 1 death star with another doesnt seem much of a solution to me.

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RE: Q-Ball vs. Canoerebel (poor Q-Ball)

Post by Miller »

The answer is simple.........have each bombardment eat up 5 times (or whatever) more supply than it does now. I am already having to pull large amounts of supply from the HI into China as it stands.

Anyone reading Dans AR will know that he caught the KB "With its pants down" early in the game, we both lost a carrier or two but he has put most of the rest of my carriers in the body shop for the next six months.......therefore no more IJN expansion unless covered by LBA or perhaps China.......

I am not an IJN "Fanboy" by any means, but there is a lot less room for error as the Jap in AE compared to WITP. If the Jap player is forced to play out the game as in real life then no game will get beyond the end of 43.
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by seydlitz_slith »

I agree. Overly nerfed. You can bombard with a division of battleships and not even close a coastal runaway for a morning airphase.
ORIGINAL: tigercub

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Well we did get the Death Star bombardment fleets fixed, so I guess this is what takes its place.

The fleet bombards were better, since they could only get coastal hexes. The Death Star Artillery can go anywhere.
I think they are over fixed!with good recon i am get poor return for effort after 3 months into the war can not say navy bombardment is what it should be.

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RE: Q-Ball vs. Canoerebel (poor Q-Ball)

Post by JohnDillworth »

I might be disappointed if she wasn't a vegetarian, and could act worth a crap.

Seriously, after her performance in Star Wars I, I wanted the Empire to win. At least they have a pair.

Hopefully Jar Jar was on Alderon when it was toasted.

I guess this is getting a little OT from modelling of Japanese Artillery....

Wow, I have seen threads hijacked but this was impressive
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

I agree. Overly nerfed. You can bombard with a division of battleships and not even close a coastal runaway for a morning airphase.

Recon... Recon ... Recon


Naval bombardment of Port Moresby at 98,130

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IA: 1 destroyed on ground
Catalina I: 3 destroyed on ground
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed on ground
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed on ground
P-39D Airacobra: 1 destroyed on ground
A-24 Banshee: 1 destroyed on ground
LB-30 Liberator: 1 destroyed on ground

Japanese Ships
BB Yamashiro
BB Mutsu
CA Kako
CA Furutaka
CL Kitakami


Allied ground losses:
376 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 15 destroyed, 50 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)


Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 70
Port supply hits 1

BB Yamashiro firing at Port Moresby
BB Mutsu firing at Port Moresby
CA Kako firing at Port Moresby
CA Furutaka firing at Port Moresby
CL Kitakami firing at Port Moresby

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

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RE: artillery - WWI and reserves

Post by seydlitz_slith »

ORIGINAL: wpurdom

At the beginning of this thread, I saw it asserted that reserve status doesn't protect against bombardment, elsewhere the contrary has been asserted - perhaps in Seydlitz's AAR, perhaps by Treespider. It would be appropriate to have a definitive answer. I don't really think quoting the manual answers the question since the manual is not that clear on that point to me.

It does indeed appear to work as described in section 8.2.1.1 Operations Mode section of the rulebook. This is the bottom of page 185 and first part of page 186 in the American manual (you know, the one that has the "made in China" sticker on the back[:D]).

I am using in it my game to shield my higher experience infantry units and to keep them from being destroyed in the huge artillery melee that I am engaged with in the Voroshilov hex against the Russians. Both of us have well over a dozen artillery units. In fact 90% of the Japanese artillery units in the theater are there as are about the same percentage of Russian artillery units. The counterbattery fire is awesome as the artillery units destroy each other's guns.



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RE: artillery - WWI and reserves

Post by treespider »

ORIGINAL: seydlitz
(you know, the one that has the "made in China" sticker on the back[:D]).


Oh the irony...

PS.
Remember to Recon.
Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

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RE: artillery - WWI and reserves

Post by WITPPL »


Sounds Reasonable.

Btw: I am not a Chinese ww2 theater expert but I know something about ww1. I can post some stats of artillery barrages and its effects during major offensives on a western front when I get back home.

a) Casualties were HIGHER (much higher actually - 2x in deaths not to mention disabled WITP is using) than in our game
b) It took months to prepare an artillery for the offensive (most of a time was consumed by building stockpiles of ammo to sustained fire PLUS !roads! to move heavies after first enemy line has collapsed as it ALWAYS did).
c) Sometimes (some rain anybody?) It took weeks not days to reposition pieces to support further advance
D) repositioning anything bigger than 150 is difficult, very difficult. You have to prepare a new solid position to properly deploy your barrels, build warehouses, ammo bunkers etc, etc.

So maybe time is the matter?
Can’t we just slow down anything > 150mm? Can’t we reduce movement capability of heavies OR restrict its redeployment to strategic one? With prolonged time of packing unpacking? It should take weeks to reposition heavy batteries. Weeks gents.

Just my 2c



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RE: artillery - WWI and reserves

Post by Altaris »

I did some testing on the ART vs Chinese tonight by editing via Scenario Edito 5 ART regiments and 2 INF regiments for Japanese to Chenchow. I cycled some Chinese troops in as well, about 750 AV worth, Japanese had about 450 AV of INF.

Ran about 20 turns testing out different scenarios. Here's what I found:

1) When I left all defenders on Combat/Defend mode and all attackers on Bombard, the defenders took 500-600 casulaties a day.
2) If I put one defending unit on Combat/Defend, and the rest of Reserve, my casualties dropped significantly, to around 120 a day. This was consistent over 3 days of bombardment, I even switched back to full Combat again the 4th day, and went immediately back to the 500-600 range, so seems Reserve does keep the units from getting shelled.
3) Now, caveat to 1 and 2. IF the attackers came in at over 2:1 odds, it seemed to be automatic land check pass to bring enough troops in to correct the 2:1 odds. For example, attackers have 450 AV. I put only an 88 AV unit on Combat, and left both my big 350 AV units on Reserve. When bombarded, one of the two 350 AV units came into combat mode, I took about 350 casualties this turn, in line with being halfway between 120 and 500ish. I tested over 4 turns, every single time, a reserve division came to correct the 2:1 odds, and their commander LAND values were in the 20's, so it seems this is an automatic land check pass in bombardment cases.
4) So having established how bombard mechanics work, I tried out leaving all but the 88 AV unit on Reserve for defense, and having the 450 AV of Japanese INF go on Shock Attack. In this case, they slaughtered my defense, only the 88 AV unit defended, and neither of my 2 350 AV units came out of Reserve. I reran the turn 5 times, and finally 1 of the units came out of Reserve, but the battle was still lost. So, it seems to come out of Reserve against a Shock or Deliberate Attack, the leadership test does have to pass in this case... a huge problem for the Chinese.

In short, putting defensive units on Reserve is a great way to reduce the amount of shelling casualties, but you have to leave enough on Combat to hold off an assault by infantry. But, with a reserve system set up, troops could be rotated while staying in the hex to at least prolong the siege as long as possible. I would imagine in non-Chinese theaters, this could work out well to avoid death star shelling, such as PI and Singers, where there's not such a worry about the Reserve units not coming to the defense.

One other side note, I noticed that the attackers only carry just a bit more supply than their needs. If this supply was interuppted, the ART appears as though it will not bombard if it's supplies go into the red. This gave me a rough idea that small guerilla units from China going behind enemy lines to cut supply to a big bombardment force could really be helpful to stalling a siege (as well as putting the attacking force at risk). Since most central China bases only have 1 or 2 roads coming in, in these areas this might be a possibility to break a long, long siege.

I tend to agree with the concensus that bombards should cost more supply (3x-4x) and that forts should definitely be more effective in blocking bombardments. But at least there do appear to be some methods to counter bombardment. Not sure ultimately that it would change China's fate, but it could definitely prolong it.
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by Feltan »

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: Feltan

The issue isn't the effectiveness of the artillery, nor even guns wearing out (which they would) -- rather, it is an issue of doctrine and logistics in general.

The Japanese military historically was not trained for mass fires. Like most countries (other than the U.S. and U.K.), the Japanese did not have the concept of a Fire Direction Center (FDC) that could concentrate the fires of multiple units on a single target. Each unit had a Forward Observer that used a common point of reference to direct fire (i.e., I see the church steeple, you see the church steeple, aim at 320 degrees 3 KM from said point). A single artillery unit normally supported a single ground maneuver unit. This is primarily the method used by the Japanese, Germans, Russians and most other countries during this period. A corallary to this was a planned fire scheme that was based on pre-sited coordinates. The aforementioned doctrine is effective and simple, it doesn't require detailed maps, it doesn't require radio communication (normally used land line) but precludes the effective quick massing of fire. Hence, the effect of multiple regiments of artillery in a Japanese attack would not be equal to the sum of the parts -- each added unit would only add a fraction of its strength to the attack. Perhaps a simple way to model this would be to restrict the number of artillery units to the number of land units, with no more than a regiment of artillery per infantry division in support.

The logistics is a bit more straight forward. Units normally did not stockpile enough ammo for multi-day bombardments. However -- they could and sometimes did. I agree witht he postings that state a heftier supply consumption is in order. It is. I don't have a handy reference to state what a normal Japanese basic load consisted of -- but I would venture to guess it was no more than several dozen rounds per tube. Enough for sustain fire for a few hours at most. More could be brought in, but we are talking a more substantial logistic effort than is portrayed in the game. For a dozen artillery regiments, we are talking a significant tonnage of shells for a multi-day sustained bombardment. The game currently doesn't do a good job of modelling this.

Lastly, one could safely assume within the context of the game -- if mulitple tons of supply were being shipped in to support a bombardment, that some small percentage of that tonnage would be replacement tubes for the guns. Such an item is major end item replacement, and is generally part of the supply chain. So, I don't see a special problem with that issue once the logistics is made more realistic.

Regards,
Feltan

Have you read Nomonhan? I was actually surprised at the "sophistication" of IJA Artillery capability presented in that story. Certainly not "modern mobile battle" capable - but multiple artillery units operating together at least. Perhaps Nomonhan is mostly "Russian versus Japanese" a la a WWI capability - but the Nomonhan example is not one that would be familiar with those who only known about IJA artillery capabilities as demonstrated in the "Pacific" sense there were very few cases of massed IJA artillery in the Pacific!

As to logistics, a basic calculation for 105mm would be, 33 lbs per round, 4 rounds per minute (sustained rate of fire), 50 minutes per hour sustained. This results in 200 rounds per hour or 6600 pounds per hour or 3.3 tons per hour. If a WITP/AE supply point is one "ton" then this would be 3.3 supply points per hour. So then if we assume a game "bombardment" is 2 hours long, then this would be 6.6 supply points per tube per bombardment. Or for an artillery park (about 4 regiments worth) of 100 tubes, this would be 660 supply points per bombardments.

In some of the examples we see in this thread, the cost would be 2 to 4 times this amount. Also we might want to factor in the supply cost of getting the rounds to the guns. If any mechanized transport is used this cost could be a significant amount.

But a case can thus be made for dramtically increasing the supply cost of "bombardments" and I'm sure this will be considered for the future.

In the interim, if players see too much concentration of artillery, they can try a combination of house rules and also spreading out of the defenders to avoid concentrated targets for concentrations of artillery.


When one tries to generalize doctrine and employment, the risk is that someone will point out an exception. Which you did. However, you can probably count on one hand the number of times the Japanese significantly diverged from standard doctrine. In real life, they often didn't see the merit in firepower; rather counting on shock and cold steel to win the day.

But, the fact remains that they could have made better use of firepower. And in a game setting, most players will probably want to do just that.

I'd like to wave you off of using simply a logistic solution to this issue. While logistics need to be tweaked for artillery, I am afraid the liklihood of invoking the law of unintended consequences is pretty high.

Let me try to join together some scattered thoughts:

- For a given unit with organic artillery, or for pure artillery units, their basic load and normal resupply have an affect on combat. They do damage. For most situations, let us say the game models this correctly. One can argue that artillery is too effective, or not effective enough, or uses too little supply, etc. However, for a run-of-the-mill engagement let's just stipulate that the game does an adequate job of modelling combat if moderate amounts of artillery are engaged. From a game modelling point-of-view, I don't think you want to mess with, or risk messing with, something that seems to work just fine. A couple of Chinese divisions, or a handful of SNLF's, conducting a bombarment are modelled just fine.

- The anomolies that have been noted are not run-of-the-mill engagements. The issue is massed fires from several, perhaps a dozen or more, artillery battalions/regiments. Such a force causes large casualties for the defender -- and I would argue that it damn well should. However, in a real sense, it is too easy. As has been mentioned, the logistic tail to support such an effort is greater, much greater, than what the game portrays.

- I'll completely leave alone the fact that the Japanese would likely not do this, or at least not do it often. We have the same problem on the Allied side too, and they did do it in real life.

- So, how do you handle the logistics for the "special" cases?

- First, I think you need to define what the "special" cases are. Most of us have experienced the bombardment effects at Batan and Singapore. A thousand or two casualties a day are not out of the ordinary from sustained bombardment. Day after day, until the defender is bled white. The same for the Japanese death star(s) in China. In any context other than this game, these battles would be called sieges.

- I think a path to a solution for this issue may be to develop some easy criteria for a battle to be declared a siege, and then institute some special supply rules and consuption rates. Some criteria that pop to mind are: artillery tubes above a certain level; troop totals above a certain level; fortification above a certain level, etc.

- Why not just increase supply consumption for all artillery and call it a day? A couple of problems. First, the defender of a base has a mechanism to draw more supply into the base. The attacker, who does not control the base, does not. Also, if not at a base, neither side has the the ability to manage supply concentration. If all you do is increase supply consumption, I can see situations where no one can do anything even though stockpiles of supply may exist a few hexes away. Or I can see a situation where a defender of a base plasters a numerically superior attacker because the defender can dial up more supply while the attacker cannot, and as a result the attacker sits there waiting as a target.

Sorry for being so lenthy. Basically, a mechanism is needed to declare a seige and some special supply rules are needed for the situation. Don't mess with what works well.

Regards,
Feltan
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by jazman »

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ORIGINAL: khyberbill
The designers said,... working as designed.

I'm sure the designers of the Edsel, the Yugo, the British Comet, and the Tacoma Narrows Bridge said the same thing.

Working as Designed, maybe, but not as Intended.
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by stuman »

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gents,

There have been many posts - including a few by me - about the strength of Japanese artillery. Many of these posts have described the absolute devastation wrought by massed IJ artillery on Luzon and at Singapore.

I have just come face to face with this tactic in China in my PBEM with Miller. He brought seventeen (!!! [X(] !!!) artillery units to Chengchow, a key base on the Chinese main line of resistance. Chengchow has/had forts and should have been relatively immune from "artillery death star carnage." The results of back to back bombardments by Miller - 2,399 casualties the first day and 2,088 the second. Two of my units essentially vaporized. What was a strongly fortified position that had held in a long-term seige is suddenly decimated.

There is no way that the designers could intend for artillery to repeatedly cause this kind of damage to troops in fortified hexes. There is no way, as the game is currently configured, that the Allies have a chance to hold China against massed Japanese artillery.

Please, Developers, do something to address this situation. Immediately.

Sincerely,

Canoe "Bludgeoned to Death By IJ Artillery Death Star" Rebel


I am playing Japan atm, and I like the arty situation just fine. It seems most fair, reasonable, balanced, historical, cool and groovy. It is sort of neat watching Chinese divisions melt away.

It is possible I could change my mind at a later date when playing as the Allies.
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by stuman »

Felto : Well reasoned argument.

And I want to join your club.
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by RevRick »

ORIGINAL: jazman

ORIGINAL: RevRick

ORIGINAL: khyberbill



I'm sure the designers of the Edsel, the Yugo, the British Comet, and the Tacoma Narrows Bridge said the same thing.

Working as Designed, maybe, but not as Intended.
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by tigercub »

IF nothing more i had a good laugh...some funny posts...land base arty and air attack are doing better than navy bombardments even with Recon recon recon.


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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by Sharkosaurus rex »

I think that most players of Japan just put it down to hindsight. They don't see any flaw in their Death Stars in China, they are not playing WWII they are playing WitPAE and they want to get every bit out of the program regardless of how far from history their exploits take them. Most think it is their genius that they capture Singapore weeks before it's historical fall (15th Feb 42) , Bataan months before it fell on 9th April 42, or blasting 3,000 Chinese in their continuous daily bombardments in China. If the program allows it- it must be fine fine fine.
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RE: Japanese Death Star Artillery

Post by castor troy »

ORIGINAL: Sharkosaurus rex

I think that most players of Japan just put it down to hindsight. They don't see any flaw in their Death Stars in China, they are not playing WWII they are playing WitPAE and they want to get every bit out of the program regardless of how far from history their exploits take them. Most think it is their genius that they capture Singapore weeks before it's historical fall (15th Feb 42) , Bataan months before it fell on 9th April 42, or blasting 3,000 Chinese in their continuous daily bombardments in China. If the program allows it- it must be fine fine fine.


100% of this can be said about Allied players too. At some point people should just forget about fanboism. You want fanboism? In WITP (and probably even more so in AE) the majority of the PBEMs ended with the Allied crushing the Japanese FAR before it was done in real life...

it must be the program then...
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