Japanese Death Star Artillery

[Canoerebel]

Gents,

There have been many posts - including a few by me - about the strength of Japanese artillery. Many of these posts have described the absolute devastation wrought by massed IJ artillery on Luzon and at Singapore.

I have just come face to face with this tactic in China in my PBEM with Miller. He brought seventeen (!!! [X(] !!!) artillery units to Chengchow, a key base on the Chinese main line of resistance. Chengchow has/had forts and should have been relatively immune from "artillery death star carnage." The results of back to back bombardments by Miller - 2,399 casualties the first day and 2,088 the second. Two of my units essentially vaporized. What was a strongly fortified position that had held in a long-term seige is suddenly decimated.

There is no way that the designers could intend for artillery to repeatedly cause this kind of damage to troops in fortified hexes. There is no way, as the game is currently configured, that the Allies have a chance to hold China against massed Japanese artillery.

Please, Developers, do something to address this situation. Immediately.

Sincerely,

Canoe "Bludgeoned to Death By IJ Artillery Death Star" Rebel

[EUBanana]

I do like damaging artillery and I think in general it is an improvement over arty in WITP, but it does seem a bit high.

I tried to track down some numbers on massed artillery and casualties. In March 1918 the opening bombardment of Operation Michael - which is probably about as close to a 'bombardment action' as real life gets - inflicted 7500 casualties to those on the receiving end, specifically by bombardment alone.

I'm not sure how many guns that was but it was 1.1 million shells worth, so a number I presume to be orders of magnitude above what the Japanese can manage. I think supply needs to figure into these things a lot more than it does.

Maybe there should be a 'massed bombardment' option that dishes out major casualties at a major supply cost, and a normal bombardment that works kinda like ye olde WITP.

I dunno. [;)]

[LoBaron]

Just wonder what happens if you set 90% of your infantry to reserve and rotate them to combat if
needed. Would the losses drop? Not sure but i think so. And the manual says they get out of reserve
if needed and you face a deliberate attack.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Just wonder what happens if you set 90% of your infantry to reserve and rotate them to combat if
needed. Would the losses drop? Not sure but i think so. And the manual says they get out of reserve
if needed and you face a deliberate attack.

No, this is not how "reserves" are treated on defense according to the manual, which says:
"Units in Reserve mode on the offensive are available to exploit a
possible breach in the enemy line. On the defensive with a proper leadership
check, the commanding officer may release his reserves to plug a potential
gap in his lines and thus alter the outcome of a battle by changing the final
odds. Reserve units are withheld from battle unless a commander passes
a Land leadership check to commit his reserves. The reserve unit will not
suffer casualties unless committed to the battle. In addition only units in
Reserve will be allowed to Pursue in combat. A unit may only be placed
into Reserve if other friendly units are in the hex. If a unit is in Reserve
and no friendly units are in the hex it will revert to Combat mode."

[LoBaron]

Hm this isnt much different from what i thought except for the leader test.
might be worth it if you have at least ok leadership.

it also says:
If attacked and the initial assault adds are greater than 2:1 a unit in reservere
may be added to the combat if the units leader passes a land check.

so basically you trade a bit weaker defense for less bombardement losses.

i gonna try this at the AI at least, note sure about the outcome. but genrally speaking as the
allieds get kicked around in China anyway by what i hear (don´t know how erstads test game
is doing) its worth a try.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gents,

There have been many posts - including a few by me - about the strength of Japanese artillery. Many of these posts have described the absolute devastation wrought by massed IJ artillery on Luzon and at Singapore.

I have just come face to face with this tactic in China in my PBEM with Miller. He brought seventeen (!!! [X(] !!!) artillery units to Chengchow, a key base on the Chinese main line of resistance. Chengchow has/had forts and should have been relatively immune from "artillery death star carnage." The results of back to back bombardments by Miller - 2,399 casualties the first day and 2,088 the second. Two of my units essentially vaporized. What was a strongly fortified position that had held in a long-term seige is suddenly decimated.

There is no way that the designers could intend for artillery to repeatedly cause this kind of damage to troops in fortified hexes. There is no way, as the game is currently configured, that the Allies have a chance to hold China against massed Japanese artillery.

Please, Developers, do something to address this situation. Immediately.

Sincerely,

Canoe "Bludgeoned to Death By IJ Artillery Death Star" Rebel

So not counting the artillery at Hong Kong/Canton I see a total of 9 Artillery units in north and central China....sounds like Miller bought out some Kwantung Army artillery... perhaps time for a house rule...and maybe get Andy to "permanently restrict" the heavy guns in Manchuria.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: treespider
So not counting the artillery at Hong Kong/Canton I see a total of 9 Artillery units in north and central China....sounds like Miller bought out some Kwantung Army artillery... perhaps time for a house rule...and maybe get Andy to "permanently restrict" the heavy guns in Manchuria.

Yes, he paid political points to pull in Kwangtung units. We don't have any house rules in our game, anyhow, so I've gotta take my medicine while trying to figure out how to defend China.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
Hm this isnt much different from what i thought except for the leader test.
might be worth it if you have at least ok leadership.

it also says:
If attacked and the initial assault adds are greater than 2:1 a unit in reservere
may be added to the combat if the units leader passes a land check.

so basically you trade a bit weaker defense for less bombardement losses.

i gonna try this at the AI at least, note sure about the outcome. but genrally speaking as the
allieds get kicked around in China anyway by what i hear (don´t know how erstads test game
is doing) its worth a try.

The Chinese don't have leaders that can pass Leadership Tests. Chinese Leaders are generally in the 30s and 40s at this point of the war. Roll for a Leadership Test and they are likely to commit suicide.

[Canoerebel]

Here's the first artillery bombardment at Chengchow - note the number of IJ artillery units and the devastation wrought:
 
Ground combat at Chengchow (88,44)
 
Japanese Bombardment attack
 
Attacking force 8676 troops, 335 guns, 442 vehicles, Assault Value = 1765
 
Defending force 67475 troops, 410 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1430
 
Japanese ground losses:
      Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
      Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
 
 
Allied ground losses:
      2399 casualties reported
         Squads: 45 destroyed, 26 disabled
         Non Combat: 58 destroyed, 46 disabled
         Engineers: 6 destroyed, 1 disabled
      Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)
 
 
Assaulting units:...
    3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade...
    15th Division...
    58th Infantry Brigade...
    52nd Infantry Brigade...
    7th Ind.Mixed Brigade...
    35th Division...
    59th Infantry Brigade...
    62nd Infantry Brigade...
    56th Infantry Brigade...
    32nd Division...
    1st Army...
    7th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
    5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
    1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
    4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
    13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
    4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
    11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
    12th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
    9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
    6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
    22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
    2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment...
    4th RF Gun Battalion...
    Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment...
    12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
    7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
    20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
...
Defending units:...
    27th Chinese Corps...
    40th Chinese Corps...
    85th Chinese Corps...
    93rd Chinese Corps...
    96th Chinese Corps...
    56th Chinese Corps...
    80th Chinese Corps...
    48th Chinese Corps...
    13th Chinese Corps...
    9th Chinese Corps...
    98th Chinese Corps...
    39th Group Army...
    1st War Area ...
    Jingcha War Area ...
    4th Group Army...
    24th Group Army...
    10th Chinese Base Force...

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

ORIGINAL: treespider
So not counting the artillery at Hong Kong/Canton I see a total of 9 Artillery units in north and central China....sounds like Miller bought out some Kwantung Army artillery... perhaps time for a house rule...and maybe get Andy to "permanently restrict" the heavy guns in Manchuria.

Yes, he paid political points to pull in Kwangtung units. We don't have any house rules in our game, anyhow, so I've gotta take my medicine while trying to figure out how to defend China.

Try bombing the guns...[:)]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Here's the first artillery bombardment at Chengchow - note the number of IJ artillery units and the devastation wrought:

Ground combat at Chengchow (88,44)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 8676 troops, 335 guns, 442 vehicles, Assault Value = 1765

Defending force 67475 troops, 410 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1430

Japanese ground losses:
     Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)
     Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
     2399 casualties reported
        Squads: 45 destroyed, 26 disabled
        Non Combat: 58 destroyed, 46 disabled
        Engineers: 6 destroyed, 1 disabled
     Guns lost 4 (1 destroyed, 3 disabled)


Assaulting units:...
   3rd Ind.Mixed Brigade...
   15th Division...
   58th Infantry Brigade...
   52nd Infantry Brigade...
   7th Ind.Mixed Brigade...
   35th Division...
   59th Infantry Brigade...
   62nd Infantry Brigade...
   56th Infantry Brigade...
   32nd Division...
   1st Army...
   7th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   12th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment...
   4th RF Gun Battalion...
   Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment...
   12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
...
Defending units:...
   27th Chinese Corps...
   40th Chinese Corps...
   85th Chinese Corps...
   93rd Chinese Corps...
   96th Chinese Corps...
   56th Chinese Corps...
   80th Chinese Corps...
   48th Chinese Corps...
   13th Chinese Corps...
   9th Chinese Corps...
   98th Chinese Corps...
   39th Group Army...
   1st War Area ...
   Jingcha War Area ...
   4th Group Army...
   24th Group Army...
   10th Chinese Base Force...

Well think of it this way the guns are in china and not on some far flung Pacific Island you might want to invade...Part of the problem with the manchurian garrison requirements is that it only looks at AV...

[Canoerebel]

As noted elsewhere it is nearly impossible to utilize bombers in China - the Chinese bombers have experience in the 40s and supplies are too low to permit use of Allied bombers (or even Chinese bombers if the pilots actually decided to fly).

[Rob Brennan UK]

I'll be interested to see how this discussion pans out. No experience either facing or using the massed artillery tactic, but from AAR's it does seem excessive given chinas paltry 200 replacements/month. The "free units back ay 30% AV" only works if the japanese player is kind enough to clobber them. Most good Japenese players would leave these small units to rot and ignore them.

[Shark7]

Well we did get the Death Star bombardment fleets fixed, so I guess this is what takes its place.

The fleet bombards were better, since they could only get coastal hexes. The Death Star Artillery can go anywhere.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

note the number of IJ artillery units

Assaulting units:...
   7th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   5th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   1st Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   4th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   13th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   4th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   11th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   12th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   9th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   6th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   22nd Medium Field Artillery Regiment...
   2nd Hvy.Artillery Regiment...
   4th RF Gun Battalion...
   Tonei Hvy Gun Regiment...
   12th Ind.Art.Mortar Battalion...
   7th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion...
   20th Medium Field Artillery Regiment...

Unless I am mistaken I would say there are very few Independent Artillery units in Manchuria at the moment ...not that that helps you in any way....[;)]....I think all of these guys started as Kwantung Army Artillery Units.

[Q-Ball]

In WITP, artillery didn't do enough damage. Playing Japan, I never bombarded Chinese troops, because all you would do is train them, and not inflict any casualties. Artillery was of very limited value.

In AE, the pendulum has swung.

Maybe the problem isn't the EFFECTIVENESS of massed artillery, because 17 units IRL would also be doing a number on the Chinese. Maybe the problem is that Artillery doesn't consume enough SUPPLIES. If an artillery unit consumed 300 supplies per turn of bombardment, that would put a crimp in those Bombardments. You could still do a turn or two for assaults, but a month's worth would be impossible.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

In WITP, artillery didn't do enough damage. Playing Japan, I never bombarded Chinese troops, because all you would do is train them, and not inflict any casualties. Artillery was of very limited value.

In AE, the pendulum has swung.

Maybe the problem isn't the EFFECTIVENESS of massed artillery, because 17 units IRL would also be doing a number on the Chinese. Maybe the problem is that Artillery doesn't consume enough SUPPLIES. If an artillery unit consumed 300 supplies per turn of bombardment, that would put a crimp in those Bombardments. You could still do a turn or two for assaults, but a month's worth would be impossible.

[pad152]

Artillery was the leading cause of death to infantry and that is a lot a artillery attacking!

[Nikademus]

If you can navigate this trench, {} you can kill the death star..........[:D]

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
If you can navigate this trench, {} you can kill the death star..........[:D]

[&:]

I have no idea what Nikademus is saying.

P.S. Just played two more turns with two more Jap Artillery Death Star bombardments at Chengchow. This time casualties were 1,590 and 2,470. That's 8,000 casualties in four days.