Pre Combat Air Strikes

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ColinWright
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Why on earth should a player know precisely what the odds are that his move will be severely affected by interdiction? Were real-life generals privileged with this information?

They won't know easily. But they can know if they get out their calculators and grind through the figures - for every move of every unit. And there's bound to be some who will - making it necessary for everyone else if they want to keep up. So we can kiss that "easier to use" thing goodby...

Curtis, you need to take a reality check here. I'm a pretty good -- and infamously diligent -- TOAW player. I can think of one opponent I've played who was clearly better at this game than myself -- and I can take DAYS to actually execute a turn. That's probably the main reason I usually do quite well -- I am careful to consider everything from all angles.

If anyone would actually work out what the specific odds would be on interdiction happening in a specific hex on a specific turn it would be me. And yet I don't; how could I? Do you?

This isn't what happens. Let me pleasure Rhinobones and once again refer to Seelowe.

In Seelowe the Briton is subjected to varying but usually heavy levels of German interdiction. When I'm the Brits, do I ever calculate the odds of being hit in a particular hex on a particular turn?

No -- of course not. I start making moves -- usually with unimportant or distant units -- and see how the weather is this turn, so to speak. Then I modify my behavior accordingly. If it looks like Jerry's being frisky today, I avoid sending any artillery units by rail. If things don't look too bad, I try running one part of the way south and see what happens.

Etc. I'm not even sure I could calculate the odds in a given hex. But it's academic -- I wouldn't try.

And yet, in pursuit of your argument, you will seriously assert that if the mechanism becomes even more opaque, that there are people who will seriously start trying to crunch the numbers -- assuming the numbers are even there to crunch. Is there any way for a player to calculate precisely what the odds are of being interdicted in a specific hex? Then too, why would knowing this number with precision affect one's decision? After all, there is the minor consideration of just how important it is that one make the move. If one has to make it, one will just take one's chances whether you know the odds are something like one in two, or know that there's actually a 57.31204% chance. If one can avoid moving when the weather's that bad, one probably will.

The precision of that damned number that may or may not be obtainable and that no one actually ever works out isn't the critical factor in the first place.

Out of sheer pigheaded stubbornness, you are drifting into absurdity. No one does this.

'...But they can know if they get out their calculators and grind through the figures - for every move of every unit. And there's bound to be some who will - making it necessary for everyone else if they want to keep up. So we can kiss that "easier to use" thing goodby...'

Every statement in that passage is untrue.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Curtis, you need to take a reality check here. I'm a pretty good -- and infamously diligent -- TOAW player. I can think of one opponent I've played who was clearly better at this game than myself -- and I can take DAYS to actually execute a turn. That's probably the main reason I usually do quite well -- I am careful to consider everything from all angles.

If anyone would actually work out what the specific odds would be on interdiction happening in a specific hex on a specific turn it would be me. And yet I don't; how could I? Do you?

Don't bet on it. Some players are serious - and want any edge they can get. A reference table could be devised and used - with difficulty. Do I calculate interdiction odds now? Of course not. They're a fixed constant. But I do calculate the fraction of turn left for each unit before I add them to an attack - I don't trust the Attack Planner or the Stars.
Out of sheer pigheaded stubbornness, you are drifting into absurdity.

That takes a lot of nerve, considering you're clinging to this idiotic method for no reason.
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ColinWright
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Curtis, you need to take a reality check here. I'm a pretty good -- and infamously diligent -- TOAW player. I can think of one opponent I've played who was clearly better at this game than myself -- and I can take DAYS to actually execute a turn. That's probably the main reason I usually do quite well -- I am careful to consider everything from all angles.

If anyone would actually work out what the specific odds would be on interdiction happening in a specific hex on a specific turn it would be me. And yet I don't; how could I? Do you?

Don't bet on it. Some players are serious - and want any edge they can get.


Oh I'll bet on it. You're on. Terms and amount?

A reference table could be devised and used - with difficulty. Do I calculate interdiction odds now? Of course not. They're a fixed constant. But I do calculate the fraction of turn left for each unit before I add them to an attack - I don't trust the Attack Planner or the Stars.
Out of sheer pigheaded stubbornness, you are drifting into absurdity.

That takes a lot of nerve, considering you're clinging to this idiotic method for no reason.

'idiotic...' The nice thing about this is that it kind of gives me a free hand, doesn't it?


My idea might not be the ultimate solution, but it stands head and shoulders above doing nothing. I also -- for reasons I have already stated -- think it is clearly superior to your idea. The method is only 'idiotic' if we accept as the definition of 'idiotic' the following:

'idiotic. A proposal made contrary to something Curtis has proposed, to which he can pose no more cogent objection.'

Indeed, it is invariably at this stage that you descend to abuse. It's what you do when others would concede that their interlocutor's point has merit.

This is why you are the five hundred ton boulder in the mountain road of any sort of cooperative development of TOAW. Not only do you appear to lack any decent ideas of your own, you refuse to accept the most obvious suggestions of others. This is coupled with a breathtaking lack of actual knowledge of military history, and an apparent inability to grasp the consequences of simple logic. You are the quintessential wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's like having George Bush running the war on terror.
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Panama
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by Panama »

Interdiction was only mentioned because it was tied into the airstrikes before each combat round and end of each turn and because someone thought their aircraft should get to bomb something no matter what. Wrong headed but there it is. Personally I would very grudgingly allow only the end of turn airstrike. Just because I might use most of my movement points before the first round of combat shouldn't mean someone gets free shots at my units each and every round. [:-]

Having said that, some allowance for night movement might be made for turns over half a day. But...depending on time and latitude night can be either very long or very short. During the winter near Leningrad I have at least a fourteen hour window to move in the dark. During the summer near Stalingrad I have about eight hours. That six hour difference is alot of movement. You'll have to come up with an average.

How do you determine what part of the movement is during the day and what part at night? Maybe I want to move towards the front at night and, with movement points remaining, move to contact during the day. Also, moving at night with no lights would slow you down. Just try it. Even blackout lights don't help much.

I really don't see how you could logically separate night movement from day movement and keep everyone happy. Personally I think you would be opening up a whole new can of worms.

Just get rid of the pre combat round airstrikes and limit it to end of turn if you must have it. Doing it a eight times a turn is ludicrous. That's what this thread was supposed to be about anyway till it got mugged. [:D]
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Panama That's what this thread was supposed to be about anyway till it got mugged. [:D]

Well, it's still about interdiction -- sort of. Most thread muggings are much worse. Anyway, I certainly agree with you that the interdiction air strikes on units that aren't moving make no sense. It must be something Curtis advocated.
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rhinobones
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by rhinobones »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Let me pleasure Rhinobones and once again refer to Seelowe.

Once again it appears that I have hurt your feelings. Sorry . . . didn’t realize that you were so thin skinned.
ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Out of sheer pigheaded stubbornness, you are drifting into absurdity. No one does this.

This is not a true statement. You are quite adept at pigheaded stubbornness as exhibited in this thread.

Regards, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year . . . oink!
RhinoBones
Colin Wright:
Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

Post by broccolini » Sun Nov 06, 2022
. . . no-one needs apologize for douchebags acting like douchebags
ColinWright
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: rhinobones
ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Let me pleasure Rhinobones and once again refer to Seelowe.

Once again it appears that I have hurt your feelings. Sorry . . . didn’t realize that you were so thin skinned.

No fear. That only happens with people I respect.

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Out of sheer pigheaded stubbornness, you are drifting into absurdity. No one does this.

This is not a true statement. You are quite adept at pigheaded stubbornness as exhibited in this thread.

I wouldn't deny it -- at least not in general. I don't think it was ever exhibited in this thread. However, that wasn't my meaning in the first place.


Regards, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year . . . oink!
RhinoBones

You seem to have recovered from your hangover. I suppose there isn't much to do about you -- but we can always hope you never have children. It seems unlikely to happen.
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rhinobones
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by rhinobones »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
You seem to have recovered from your hangover. I suppose there isn't much to do about you -- but we can always hope you never have children. It seems unlikely to happen.

Colin, I am seriously disappointed in you. I wished you Merry Christmas and you respond with such anger. I do not know why.

Your last response was extremely ugly and certainly undeserving. I do not understand why you want to give me and all the good people on the TOAW forum a show of how spiteful and hateful a person you are.

I do not know how others will take your ugliness, but I will guess that your NAV is near zero on the TOAW Exchange.

Regards, RhinoBones

And, BTW, I have two children and two grandchildren. Eat your words.
Colin Wright:
Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

Post by broccolini » Sun Nov 06, 2022
. . . no-one needs apologize for douchebags acting like douchebags
ColinWright
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: rhinobones
And, BTW, I have two children and two grandchildren.

I feel sorry for them. Golden Delicious says you make good maps, so perhaps that's so, but I can't say I've ever personally seen any redeeming qualities whatsoever. You're basically a Black Hole.

Looking at it abstractly, it's particularly depressing when someone retains such deficiencies into what must be -- speaking strictly in a chronological sense -- late adulthood. After all, with some twenty-year old punk* -- which is what I took you to be -- there's always hope he'll get over it.

But then -- except when you are expressing spite -- I've never seen the least trace of sincerity in anything you've ever said. So perhaps the children and the grandchildren are a fictional device (which is a good thing right there) and you are a twenty year old punk, and you will get over it. You really do seem like you must be about twenty. I find it hard to believe you could be old enough to have grandchildren.

* No offense intended to any of the chronologically deprived. Many twenty-year olds are fine people...just not all of them.
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rhinobones
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by rhinobones »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: rhinobones
And, BTW, I have two children and two grandchildren.
After all, with some twenty-year old punk* -- which is what I took you to be -- there's always hope he'll get over it.

But then -- except when you are expressing spite -- I've never seen the least trace of sincerity in anything you've ever said. So perhaps the children and the grandchildren are a fictional device (which is a good thing right there) and you are a twenty year old punk, and you will get over it. You really do seem like you must be about twenty. I find it hard to believe you could be old enough to have grandchildren.

I do not know why you continue to insult me, my children and my grandchildren. I have never done any of this this to you. You should be ashamed of yourself for making personal attacks on another's family.

As for being a 20 year old punk, you obviously have a deficient memory and do not recall that I am a USMC VN veteran. I joined the Marines in June 1969.

You are not a veteran. You read books and dream about combat. You play computer games and try to tell veterans that this is the way it was. You have never seen blood spilled on the field . . . . you are shit. You have no right to tell veterans about combat.

If you ever degrade my children, or grandchildren again, I will find you.

Regards, RhinoBones
Colin Wright:
Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

Post by broccolini » Sun Nov 06, 2022
. . . no-one needs apologize for douchebags acting like douchebags
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Panama
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by Panama »

Uhm...I am going to assume there is no monitor for this board.
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Curtis Lemay
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

'idiotic...' The nice thing about this is that it kind of gives me a free hand, doesn't it?

Let's just rattle off the idiotic litany this suggestion contains:

1. It is divorced from reality. Real units moving through interdiction zones do not incur increasing risk of triggering interdiction as their move progresses. The risk is uniform over the entire move. The consequences of this non-reality will have an adverse impact on player strategies. They can unrealistically exploit it by focusing their AAA and AS assets near the end of the planned move. Plus, they can choose to more safely move over open terrain at the start of the move, switching to terrain with better protection at the end of the move. Such idiotic strategy will have to become the norm.

2. But it isn't even based upon the distance the unit has moved, because the vector used (fraction of MPs remaining) only very poorly correlates with distance previously moved. Both the passing of combat rounds and large terrain costs expend MPs without a proportionate distance shift. Units lose MPs just sitting on their thumbs and lose much more moving through a swamp than on a road. This idea would actually reverse the already built-in feature that favors moving off-road to avoid interdiction.

3. It comes with a built-in time-machine effect. Suppose a player chooses to move a unit only 30% of its movement allowance that turn. He does so, receiving a reduction in risk of interdiction commensorate with the assumption that it is taking its entire turn to get to that location. But, in game terms, it still has 70% of its movement allowance left. It is free to now participate in combat from that location, with seven combat rounds remaining.

4. Contrary to your wishful claims, it will not be easy to implement. That's because, even if the code for it turns out to be easy (and there is no guarantee it will), the testing requirements will be huge. Furthermore, the math necessary to make the effect uniform for all movement allowances will be about as tough as General Relativity. That adds to the implementation costs as well - and to player's problems, too (see next).

5. Players will have the problem of being clueless about how it impacts individual units at any given situation, or facing massive calculation tasks to figure it out.

I'm kind of stumped as to just what isn't idiotic about it.

Add in the fact that not one shred of evidence for any aspect of this has ever been proffered and it gives special meaning to the phrase "Pig-Headed" to any one defending it.

If this is to become a feature, the only rational way to implement it is the way I suggested. If a unit is moving slower than normal, then it is, in effect, paying a higher movement rate for the terrain it passes through. So we need a mechanism that multiplies the cost of terrain in return for a reduction in interdiction risk. That's what I proposed. It lacks every one of the above mentioned idiocies that yours does. It has no mechanical fallacies at all that I can detect. It has the further advantage that players have complete control over where and when they implement it.

I truly can't understand your objection to it other than the fact that you're ticked off. That, of course, says something about you (but nothing I didn't already know).
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ColinWright
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

'idiotic...' The nice thing about this is that it kind of gives me a free hand, doesn't it?

Let's just rattle off the idiotic litany this suggestion contains:

That opening line essentially suggests that it would be a bad idea either to read your post or to respond.

I'll go along with that.
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ColinWright
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by ColinWright »

ORIGINAL: rhinobones
ORIGINAL: ColinWright
ORIGINAL: rhinobones
And, BTW, I have two children and two grandchildren.
After all, with some twenty-year old punk* -- which is what I took you to be -- there's always hope he'll get over it.

But then -- except when you are expressing spite -- I've never seen the least trace of sincerity in anything you've ever said. So perhaps the children and the grandchildren are a fictional device (which is a good thing right there) and you are a twenty year old punk, and you will get over it. You really do seem like you must be about twenty. I find it hard to believe you could be old enough to have grandchildren.

I do not know why you continue to insult me, my children and my grandchildren. I have never done any of this this to you. You should be ashamed of yourself for making personal attacks on another's family.

As for being a 20 year old punk, you obviously have a deficient memory and do not recall that I am a USMC VN veteran. I joined the Marines in June 1969.

You are not a veteran. You read books and dream about combat. You play computer games and try to tell veterans that this is the way it was. You have never seen blood spilled on the field . . . . you are shit. You have no right to tell veterans about combat.

If you ever degrade my children, or grandchildren again, I will find you.

Regards, RhinoBones

I hereby degrade your children and your grandchildren. My address is 2213 San Mateo Street, Richmond, California.

However, it's getting old. I'm signing off.
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rhinobones
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RE: Pre Combat Air Strikes

Post by rhinobones »

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
I'm signing off.

That’s too bad . . . but the fishing was great while it lasted.

Regards, RhinoBones
Colin Wright:
Pre Combat Air Strikes # 64 . . . I need have no concern about keeping it civil

Post by broccolini » Sun Nov 06, 2022
. . . no-one needs apologize for douchebags acting like douchebags
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