Allied fighters suck

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mdiehl
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by mdiehl »

This Allied superiority imposed the unacceptable rate of pilot attrition on Luftwaffe and IJN/IJA, so their pilot quality plummeted during 1944.

Apart from the fact that the USN pilots who started the war broke the back of the IJN pilot corps in 1942, and that the USAAF held their own against the IJN/IJA pilots beginning in June 1942, your "analysis" is "spot on."

The USN won at Midway because the Japanese showed up with an inadequate number of a.c. to do the job and a really really really abysmal operational plan, and the USN showed up with more than enough a.c. to do the job and a really really simple, fault-tolerant operational plan. American "luck" at Midway could hardly have been worse than it was. The Americans still won despite that.

Same old same old for WitP/GGPW admiral's sedition or whatever.

Don't pay any attenention to me, return to your regularly scheduled Incotrination.
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EUBanana
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by EUBanana »

ORIGINAL: DicedT

Amazing that we've had two big patches to fix major flaws like artillery Death Stars and pilot experience. But any suggestion that the air combat model might be flawed brings on innuendo that the player must be at fault.

For the first time, I understand the meaning of "fanboy".

True enough.

Cast back to when the game was first released, you had people bitching incessantly about P40Es being too good because they were holding their own against Zeroes in 1941.

A patch later and the P40s were soon being whipped again.

Incidentally I don't remember many accusations of Japanese players being crap when the P40s were holding their own, it was all 'this game is broken' back then, too.

Consistency is a virtue. [;)]
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Rob Brennan UK
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by Rob Brennan UK »

Cool. I wondered if that would work, although I would have been inclined to put the inferior plane at low altitude and the superior one on the top.

Only reason i went high with the oscars was that they still remain pretty manauvreable even over 30k while the zero conks out and nosedives down [;)]. also if the lightnings remained high i would only risk the army fighters to boot.

Now that our game has moved along i can also report that these oscars went from 10 fat to upto 84 ! in one day at height and in 2-3 fights. no idea if high alt=more fatigue but it seems (rightly) to be so.

FYI oscars were at 35k .. lightnings reported at 32k (do not know actual alt) while zeros lurked down at 11k(on LRCAP from another base). if anyone wants to replicate it.
sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)
mjk428
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by mjk428 »

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Up until end of '42 Allied fighters will suck.  Anyone who tries to engage the Zero (or the Oscar) in a low-speed turning duel will loose.  Period.  Joe Voss of the Cactus Airforce summed it up perfectly in his memoirs :  'If you fight a Zero with a Wildcat 1:1 you are outnumbered'.  F4F Wildcat,  Buffallo, P49, P39 & P26/P36 + the dutch types just could not compete, even the British Hurricanne's couldn't do very well against them. 

Yet the outnumbered Cactus Air Force prevailed in '42.

Here's another quote:

“The Zero could outmaneuver, outclimb and outspeed us,” summed up one Wildcat pilot, “One Zero against one Grumman is not an even fight, but with mutual support two Grummans are worth four or five Zeros.”

http://www.historynet.com/cactus-air-fo ... eature.htm
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freeboy
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by freeboy »

I really don't have anything like a testbed of info to address this, BUT in my long ae vs ai game, now suspended as pbem has started, the US naval planes where terrible, then all of a sudden the combination of better exp, better ship aa the air war just changed... sometime late in 42 I noticed a night and day difference in results, albiet naval only as the ai stalled out in Burma...
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by jomni »

Wait till you get the Corsair...
mdiehl
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by mdiehl »

However after the Allies captured a Zero intact at the Aleutians and had a chance to evaluate it, they realised its strengths and weaknesses and tried to develop tactics and manuevouers that would prove effective against it and then train fighter pilots accordingly.

Actually, none of that is correct. You have confused multiple independent phenomenon and linked them to the Aleutians Zero.

So here's what happened. In face to face engagements in 1942, USN F4F drivers defeated A6M drivers in every battle, when you measure "defeat" in terms of number of wildcats and zeros shot down. That was mostly accomplished without using the beam defense and despite the fact that the Wildcats were operating at very extended range. The reasons for that were two: (1) USN pilots were every bit as good as Japanese pilots. Japanese pilots especially had a tendency to pull up in front of F4Fs at ranges that were lethal to the Zero because the Japanese simply weren't as expert at deflection shooting and therefore did not expect anyone else to be especially good at it. (2) The Wildcat was a tougher plane, and more maneuverable at high speed.

The Aleutian Zero evaluations weren't widely known until 1943, long after the introduction of the beam defense in October 1942, and long after the USN pilots broke the back of the IJN pilot corps in April and June 1942. The only effect that the Aleutian zero tests had was to hasten the transition of Grumman A.C. from F4F production to F6F production (by turning over production of the F4F to General Motors who produced it as the FM1 and then later the upengined FM2).
Also they developed the Hellcat which was especially designed to beat it in combat,

Incorrect. The F6F was in design in 1941 and slated to replace the F4F in 1943 even before the first shots were fired.
and loaded up guns with incendiary ammunition knowing that the Zero was so lightly armoured it woudl blow or crumple up if hit

All US fighters received incendiary coated bullets in their standard load out. The weren't needed to kill Zekes. The .50cal had an impact energy at 300 meters of about 9,000 foot pounds. What set zekes on fire was the fact that a 700 grain bullet hitting the flimsy gas tank with 9K foot pounds of energy tended to burst the tank, and bullets are generally hot, without incendiary coating, and tend to give off sparks when they hit metal. The incendiaries were gravy. Made it that much easier to kill Japanese planes which was important when taking on a.c. with two engines like Betties.
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xj900uk
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by xj900uk »

Yet the outnumbered Cactus Air Force prevailed in '42.

Here's another quote:

“The Zero could outmaneuver, outclimb and outspeed us,” summed up one Wildcat pilot, “One Zero against one Grumman is not an even fight, but with mutual support two Grummans are worth four or five Zeros.”

It's more than just a question of planes and individual pilot quality. Joe Voss and his team-mates developed tactics and teamwork/support flying which coudl counter the Zero's - the IJN put more emphasis on individuals than mutal support flying (although there were a few exception,s like for example Sabaru Sakai never loosing a wingman in combat) and the American pilots were more inclined to put their heads together and come up with novel tactics to try and beat the opposition (IJN doctrine & training positively discouraged this sort of thing). Funnily enough Clare Chennault had done the sme thing back in the summer of '41 in China, and Thatch with the USN
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Miller
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by Miller »

Well I'm almost into 43 in my PBEM and I have no complaints with A2A results to date.

OK, there have been one or two outcomes that have been a bit wacky and I think carrier based F4Fs are rather weak compared to the Zero, but mabe that is down to pilot exp. Its a game, a damn fine game....but it will never be "perfect" for everyone.
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Miller

Well I'm almost into 43 in my PBEM and I have no complaints with A2A results to date.

OK, there have been one or two outcomes that have been a bit wacky and I think carrier based F4Fs are rather weak compared to the Zero, but mabe that is down to pilot exp. Its a game, a damn fine game....but it will never be "perfect" for everyone.

Well said, I see it the same way (although I´m not nearly as far in PBEM as you).
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FatR
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by FatR »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

So here's what happened. In face to face engagements in 1942, USN F4F drivers defeated A6M drivers in every battle, when you measure "defeat" in terms of number of wildcats and zeros shot down. That was mostly accomplished without using the beam defense and despite the fact that the Wildcats were operating at very extended range.
Dead wrong. While Zero losses during Guadalcan campaign were indeed heavier (significantly so, if we discount Wildcats that went down with the ships), it is Zeroes that were forced to operate at extreme extended range, and routinely forced to fight without dropping external tanks, while Wildcats almost always fought in immediate vicinity of their airfields/carriers.
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
The Aleutian Zero evaluations weren't widely known until 1943, long after the introduction of the beam defense in October 1942, and long after the USN pilots broke the back of the IJN pilot corps in April and June 1942.
Too bad that no one mentioned to IJN pilot corps that its back has been broken before July 1942.




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mdiehl
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by mdiehl »

Dead wrong.


You are incorrect.
While Zero losses during Guadalcan campaign were indeed heavier

I was commenting about Zero losses in the Coral Sea and Midway campaigns, not counting Zeros that went down with their ships. F4Fs in both those campaigns were mostly operating at the end of their range. One of the Coral Sea sub-engagements only turned out favorably for the Zekes because the F4Fs went into the battle at relatively low power settings due to lack of fuel at range.

As to Guadalcanal, the Zeros there were operating at their end of the extreme range, a fact that almost compensated for the F4Fs at Guadalcanal operating under very poor logistical and billeting circumstances.
Too bad that no one mentioned to IJN pilot corps that its back has been broken before July 1942.


No one needed to mention it. All that was and is needed is to look at the losses they took in A2A combat in April and June 1942. The better part of four carriers worth of pilots was basically erased. The pilots that filtered into the IJN replacement pool weren't as good as the ones the USN shot down at Midway and Coral Sea. Japanese sources make note of that. USN sources make note of that. It's pretty much an unavoidable established fact that the Zeroes tended to lose, from the outset, when they faced F4Fs. Things just went from bad to worse for the Zeroes when the F4F drivers started using the beam defense. About the only Allied a.c. that the Zero could regularly defeat without the element of surprise were the P-39, The F2, and the Hurricrate.
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LoBaron
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by LoBaron »



Interesting...I think you both have some good points...
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John Lansford
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by John Lansford »

I thought the bulk of the CV pilots at Midway were picked up by other ships and brought back to Japan.  Certainly the ones shot down over the US carriers weren't, but the CAP and returning planes would have ditched and the pilots rescued.
mdiehl
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by mdiehl »

I'd have to dig out Parshall and Tulley to answer fer sure but IIRC about 65% of the Japanese pilots on Kaga & Co died at Midway, mostly from the strike elements of those CVs, mostly in A2A combat or from flak. Similar losses were experienced by the Japanese at Coral Sea, and worse losses at Eastern Solomons (wherein greater proportions of Zeros were also shot down than in previous engagements).

The important point for this discussion is that there was no interval at any time during the war during which Zeroes dominated over F4Fs.
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spence
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by spence »

Neither fighter could protect its carrier sufficiently to keep their opponents' bombers from getting through. Neither fighter was the be-all, end-all, epitome of fighter design. The pilots of both sides tried to exploit the advantages of their machines and the circumstances of each engagement would give more or less advantage to one side or the other.

Far more important to the outcome of the battle or campaign was the ability of the respective fighter to effect the attacks of the enemy's bombers. By that measure the F4F served well enough (in conjunction with USN flak) because most of the superbly trained aviators of IJN carrier aviation were dead by the end of 1942.

(According to Tully and Parshall only about 110 IJN aviators died at Midway. Most IJN aviators died in the air in 1942. That applies even to a large percentage of the losses at Midway.)

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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I thought the bulk of the CV pilots at Midway were picked up by other ships and brought back to Japan.  Certainly the ones shot down over the US carriers weren't, but the CAP and returning planes would have ditched and the pilots rescued.

According to Shattered Sword (page 476), the KB lost 110 aircrew at Midway:

Akagi 7
Kaga 21
Hiryu 72
Soryu 10

Total 110

On page 432 in the chapter entitled "The Myths and Mythmakers of Midway" they write:
"The Japanese naval air corps was all but wiped out at the Battle of Midway." Not True. Japanese casualties at Midway amounted to fewer than a quarter of the aviators embarked. Rather, it was the attritional campaign in the Solomons that destroyed the elite corps of Japanese naval aviators.

Elsewhere in the text they discuss the numbers of IJN naval aviators as a whole and go into more detail on the matter.
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by witpqs »

Spence types faster than I do! [:D]
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by ChezDaJez »

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
So here's what happened. In face to face engagements in 1942, USN F4F drivers defeated A6M drivers in every battle, when you measure "defeat" in terms of number of wildcats and zeros shot down. That was mostly accomplished without using the beam defense and despite the fact that the Wildcats were operating at very extended range. The reasons for that were two: (1) USN pilots were every bit as good as Japanese pilots. Japanese pilots especially had a tendency to pull up in front of F4Fs at ranges that were lethal to the Zero because the Japanese simply weren't as expert at deflection shooting and therefore did not expect anyone else to be especially good at it. (2) The Wildcat was a tougher plane, and more maneuverable at high speed.

The Aleutian Zero evaluations weren't widely known until 1943, long after the introduction of the beam defense in October 1942, and long after the USN pilots broke the back of the IJN pilot corps in April and June 1942. The only effect that the Aleutian zero tests had was to hasten the transition of Grumman A.C. from F4F production to F6F production (by turning over production of the F4F to General Motors who produced it as the FM1 and then later the upengined FM2).

Incorrect.

On 7 Aug 42, 17 Zeros of the Tainan group engagd 18 VF-5 Wildcats and shot down 9 of them for the loss of two Zeros.

For the entire Guadalcanal campaign, 31 Wildcats were shot down by Zeros. Wildcats shot down 25 Zeros in return. After 7 Aug 42, losses tended to even out. The side with an altitude advantage tended to win the engagement. Source: Lundstrom's "The First Team and Guadalcanal Campaign" page 529.

Without long range early warning provided by radar and coastwatchers, the Wildcats would seldom have been able to achieve a favorable attack position due to their very poor rate of climb. This was the single greatest advantage the Wildcat had over the Zero.

I would agree that US NAVY pilots were as well trained as Japanese NAVY pilots. What was lacking was experience in combat which was gained throughout 1942. As to deflection shooting, Japanese pilots were every bit as good at deflection shooting and numerous examples are detailed in Lundstrom's book. The Japanese also tended to have more experience in type aircraft in that they tended to stay in fighters once assigned during training.

One fact everyone overlooks is that deflection shooting wasn't part of the US Navy flight training program prewar. It wasn't until the development of the Carrier Replacement Air Group (CRAG) concept in late 1942 that deflection shooting began receiving greatly increased emphasis in the training command. Prior to that, deflection shooting was taught at the operational unit level. Jimmy Thatch covers this with some detail and its omission in the 1940 flight training syllabus is telling. Source: U.S. Navy Flight Training Syllabus 1940 and Naval Aviation News magazine published by the U.S. Navy.

The use of .50 cal MGs is what allowed US pilots to hit with great effect at long range. The 7.7mms MGs on the Zero couldn't provide the same punch. Deflection shooting had little to do with that.

As for Koga's Zero, intelligence first began to be released to fleet units in Spetember 1942. Flight testing results were released in November 1942 and comparison testing vs US fighters was released in December 1942. Flatley saw preliminary flight testing data prior to arriving in the Solomons in OCtober 1942. This data gave details about the Zero's lack of roll rate above 250mph and rolled more slowly to the right than left. It told pilots that the best evasion method was to corkscrew dive at high speed. Source: "Koga's Zero" by Jim Reardon.

The beam defense was Flatley's term for Thatch's "weave" which was first used at Midway, not Oct 1942 as you state.

All US fighters received incendiary coated bullets in their standard load out. The weren't needed to kill Zekes. The .50cal had an impact energy at 300 meters of about 9,000 foot pounds. What set zekes on fire was the fact that a 700 grain bullet hitting the flimsy gas tank with 9K foot pounds of energy tended to burst the tank, and bullets are generally hot, without incendiary coating, and tend to give off sparks when they hit metal. The incendiaries were gravy. Made it that much easier to kill Japanese planes which was important when taking on a.c. with two engines like Betties.

Partially incorrect. Aluminum is generally considered a non-sparking material except when in powder form.

The tanks generally did not burst but were punctured which allowed fuel to stream from the aircraft. From that point, any number of ignition sources existed to light it off including hot exhaust, incendiary bullets or electrical sparking from damaged wiring.
I was commenting about Zero losses in the Coral Sea and Midway campaigns, not counting Zeros that went down with their ships. F4Fs in both those campaigns were mostly operating at the end of their range. One of the Coral Sea sub-engagements only turned out favorably for the Zekes because the F4Fs went into the battle at relatively low power settings due to lack of fuel at range.

...snip...

As to Guadalcanal, the Zeros there were operating at their end of the extreme range, a fact that almost compensated for the F4Fs at Guadalcanal operating under very poor logistical and billeting circumstances.

My bad. I could have swore you said 1942.

Of course, we are forgetting that Zeros owed their extremely long range to very low power settings as well.

And we are overlooking the fact that at Guadalcanal, Zeros were often forced to fight with belly tanks attached due to a lack of fuel at range. Which, in effect, puts them under the same limitations you claim for the Wildcat at Coral Sea.

And, Rabaul, of course, was the equivalent of the Hilton.


"Too bad that no one mentioned to IJN pilot corps that its back has been broken before July 1942."

No one needed to mention it. All that was and is needed is to look at the losses they took in A2A combat in April and June 1942. The better part of four carriers worth of pilots was basically erased. The pilots that filtered into the IJN replacement pool weren't as good as the ones the USN shot down at Midway and Coral Sea. Japanese sources make note of that. USN sources make note of that. It's pretty much an unavoidable established fact that the Zeroes tended to lose, from the outset, when they faced F4Fs. Things just went from bad to worse for the Zeroes when the F4F drivers started using the beam defense. About the only Allied a.c. that the Zero could regularly defeat without the element of surprise were the P-39, The F2, and the Hurricrate.

Shouldn't that be losses in May and June 42?

The majority of Japanese fighter pilots survived those clashes so could hardly be considered erased. Their units, yes, not the pilots themselves. That the Japanese naval pilots were of increasingly poor quality as the war went on is a given. But it wasn't due to losses at Midway.

And it's pretty much an unavoidable established fact, at least according to Lundstrom, that Zeros shot down more Wildcats than they lost.

And its pretty much unavoidable established fact that the reason the Wildcat was as successful as it was had little to do with the aircraft itself. Without being on a defensive posture, without long range early warning, and without team tactics, the Wildcat would not have been as effective as it was. Zeros had none of these advantages.
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Shark7
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RE: Allied fighters suck

Post by Shark7 »

As I read this what seems to be the running theme is: Allies should be better in A2A starting in the second half of 1942, without regaurd to any facts. In the real war, yes in general late 1942 and into 1943 was the turning point due to attrition losses in the Solomons.

However, if people are trying to argue that the Allies in game should automatically start being better than Japanese fighter pilots starting in 7-42 then they are way off base. The game has a major difference to history, that being my input as a player. And if I can avoid the disaster at Midway or the grinding campaign in the Solomons then there is absolutely no reason I should have weaker fighter squadrons going into 1943 or even 1944.

Basically, the Japanese player should not be automatically put at a disadvantage especially if the Japanese player has done good management of his fighter corps and pilot pools.
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