Allied fighters suck

[DTomato]

It's October '42, and I have a gaggle of P-38, P-40 and Hurricane squadrons in Burma. They are being shot out of the sky by Oscars, Tojos and a few Zeroes. I've tried flying at high altitudes. I've tried flying everyone at high altitude. I've tried flying the P-38s and Hurricane IICs at 30,000 feet, and the P-40s and Hurricane IIBs at 10,000 or 15,000 feet. Same results. The P-38s bounce the Oscars, and then the Oscars get on the tail of the P-38s and shoot them down. I won't even describe what happens to P-39s.

I know the P-38 wasn't a wonder plane, but it should have some capability to fight Oscars. This concerns me a lot because the Allies do not receive many advanced fighter aircraft until 1944. Until then, the older aircraft - plus P-38s and Spitfires - are all they have. Looking at the aircraft data, Japanese aircraft are always more maneuverable, which seems to be the only factor in the WITP air combat model. Which makes me wonder how the Allied air forces managed to win in real life.

One thing I have noticed is that Allied fighters die like flies when flying offensive fighter sweeps or bomber escort. They don't do quite as badly when flying CAP. Yet even on CAP, P-38s, P-40s and Hurricanes can only bounce bounce Oscars once before the Oscars get on their tail. The WITP air combat model doesn't seem to factor in dive-and-zoom tactics by heavier, faster Allied fighters.

I love playing WITP, but there is something badly wrong with the air combat system.

[witpqs]

Speed is a huge factor.

Also, the pilots' relative experience ratings.

[DTomato]

I realize that Japanese pilots are more experienced at the beginning of the war, but I gave P-38s to the most experienced American squadrons, with experience in the 60s. Some of the Hurricane squadrons have major combat skills, and they're still getting blasted out of the skies. Not all the time. Sometimes Allied fighters shoot down an equal number of Japanese fighters, but on the whole the Allies are coming out on the losing side in late '42. Given skimpy Allied fighter production, this concerns me a lot.

One question I have is with drop tanks. In one huge Allied bomber strike in Burma, the escorting Allied fighters used drop tanks. I lost something like 36 Hurricanes, plus several P-38s and P-40s, versus maybe 6 Oscars. I wonder if there's a problem with drop tank modeling.

[PaxMondo]

Why are you concerned?  Think about it from the USN pilots perspective: 1942 even into 1943 was a VERY scary time.  This is exactly why the USN was so timid and careful (in general) until 1944 ... they didn't have enough planes and their losses were higher than they were willing to accept.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Speed is a huge factor. Yes it is..., and any Oscar that attempted to get on the tail of a diving P-38 would rip it's own wings right off!

Also, the pilots' relative experience ratings. Japanese pilots are way over-rated because of their skill in dog-fighting. As soon as the Allies stopped trying to play the dogfight game, the Japanese lost their experience edge (being the greatest acrobat in the world doesn't help a bit when your faster opponent turns the contest into a 100-yard dash!).

[DivePac88]

Hi DicedT, what are your tactics, are you using Fighter sweeps to suppress his airfields before the Bombing raids. If you are tying your Fighters just as Bomber escorts, your casualties are going to be higher than sweeping. My tactics dictate that I will sweep the target airfields with dedicated Fighter units for up to a Week before the Bombers go in. The advantage of this method (which was USAAF Doctrine) is that the enemy's fighter force is already fatigued when it faces a fresh Fighter escort.

[khyberbill]

I have cleared the skies in Burma with the Hurricanes against Zeros and Tojos and in Northern Oz against mainly Tojos with the P38. It took about six months in each place and I started in earnest about 6/42. This is in two separate PBEM's. I would expect it to take less time against the AI.

[DTomato]

I'm curious how Khyberbill managed to clear the Burmese skies with Hurricanes. I haven't been able to do this in my PBEM, and I flown both fighter sweeps and bomber escorts.

It's the P-38s that seem almost totally helpless. I'm flying them at high altitude, which seems historical. Should I fly fly them lower? The Oscars will still be more maneuverable. I'm curious what the P-38 has in WITP that gives it an edge over an Oscar. From what I've seen, a P-38 bounce from high altitude, on Oscars escorting Sallies, quickly turns into a dogfight that the Lightnings can't win.

[Canoerebel]

I've been on the short end of the stick as the Allied player with fighters.  Particulary in Burma where massed stacks of P-38s, P-40s, and Hurricanes have performed poorly.  There are so many zillion factors that could enter into the equation that I won't pretend to have a clue as to what the source or sources of the problem might be.  Chief among my suspicions is that I'm not very good at employing my fighters.
 
I really don't know how folks get away with the Allied fighters sweeping tactic, though.  Allied fighters have such short legs and tend (in my experience) to get chewed up in fights against massed Japanese fighters (I'm facing Oscars and Tojos).  If I send in big fighter sweeps, I come out on the short end.  Then, I have few if any escorts left to accompany the bombers, which get chewed alive too.

[Titanwarrior89]

Thats why I believe that a Midway type battle for the allies is impossiable in this game.....A lot of things are ahistorical.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Thats why I believe that a Midway type battle for the allies is impossiable in this game.....A lot of things are ahistorical.

Or, as many would say, Midway was an atypical outcome that wouldn't be replicated in a 1000 attempts.

War has a lot of those. Ask Mao and Chiang Kai Sheck.

[Halsey]

Here's the best 38 Sqdrn in the Air Force.

[Halsey]

Nurture, timing, experience.

It all takes a little time.

[stuman]

Chief among my suspicions is that I'm not very good at employing my fighters.

Well at least for you it is just a suspicion. With me it is a certainty.

[1275psi]

Well, I am playing japan , and in my PBEM in Burma -Allies are kicking butt, may 42

I think i will mention the elephant here in the corner of this discussion.
My opponent is very, very good......................

(and some of us are very, very bad....................)

[Chris21wen]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Thats why I believe that a Midway type battle for the allies is impossiable in this game.....A lot of things are ahistorical.

Or, as many would say, Midway was an atypical outcome that wouldn't be replicated in a 1000 attempts.

War has a lot of those. Ask Mao and Chiang Kai Sheck.

Much greater odds in my mind.

[moose1999]

I had my troubles against the Japanese in Burma too.
But I overcame them and now dominate the skies.
I stationed a couple of P-38 and P-40K squadrons there and drew all the Hurricane squadrons I could find to the area.
I even drained Ceylon dry - leaving only one Hurricane squadron there.

I then used a very defensive strategy.
High-altitude CAP, concentrating my forces so to avoid having one or two Hurricane squadrons going up against an escort of 80+ Japanese fighters.
The concentrated, high-altitude CAP turned out to be so effective that I made a house-rule that limited CAP altitude to 25.000 feet, so not to ruin the gameplay.

I had 2-3 months of very heavy fighting in the air and I did take some losses, especially in the beginning and expecially from low-experience squadrons, but as my squadrons rose in experience and the enemy started showing up in smaller numbers because of his much higher losses, I eventually gained air supremacy in Burma.
The Oscar squadrons were the toughest nuts to crack, but I don't think I lost more than a handful of planes to any other plane-type.

When the Oscar IIb (the first armored version) showed up in early 43, I started having some tough fights again with some fights ending with roughly equal losses.
But through aggressive sweeping with my P-38s and P-40Ks I soon took control again.

Overall, I saw no glaring faults with the air combat model when fighting in Burma.
I had it tough in the beginning, as I expected, but after reorganizing, getting better planes and trying out different tactics, I was able to challenge the Japanese and after heavy fighting finally came out on top.

So with the air war in Burma I got exactly what I always hope for in a wargame:
A very challenging and enjoyable playing expereince - with me ending up as the winner...!

[Nemo121]

Some workmen always blame their tools, some choose to engage in a period of self-reflection, reading and asking questions of those who seem to achieve better outcomes with their tools and then, lo and behold, find that suddenly their tools aren't quite so blunt and uni-dimensional as once believed.
 
 
From what I've seen from my testing the A2A combat model is a major improvement. I would like to see some particular changes which I think would allow a greater modelling of combat realities and doctrinal changes than can be currently modelled given the experience, speed, manoeuvre-centric model but, overall, its a big improvement.

[Puhis]

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

Thats why I believe that a Midway type battle for the allies is impossiable in this game.....A lot of things are ahistorical.

I think it is possible. But I don't think any japanese player is stupid enough not to use proper searc arcs, for example. At least my KB always sail with CS-type ship...

Players do ahistorical decisions, that leads to ahistorical results. Maybe it's just me, but I think most of the "ahistorical" moaning is just silly.

[CaptBeefheart]

My fighters in Akyab and on bases in India have done quite well vs. the AI in 1942, and most squadrons have 75% aces or better as of late December. Even one RNZAF guy had 20 kills in a Buffalo before conversion to Kittyhwak 1A. It helped that the AI threw Betties, Lilies and other bombers unescorted at me in the beginning and allowed my pilots to get some pretty good experience. Now my Hurris and Kittyhawks/P-40s take down Oscars at a ratio better than 8:1. Against a human I'm sure I wouldn't do nearly as well.

Anyway, my point is that the fighters aren't by themselves the reason for lousy results. Also, I usually run CAP at different layers depending on the aircraft, but always between 10,000 and 20,000 feet. Also, I don't see the need to do much airfield bombing as they come to me and do very little damage to my airfields, ports or TFs.