Road to Leningrad AAR (for Beginners)

[SGHunt]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

From a results oriented standpoint, I'm perfectly pleased with how this little AAR is playing out so far.

If not from a staff officer standpoint, eh, Flavius? [;)] I look forward to your observations...

One last screen shot before close - this is the overview as I get near the end of Turn 3. I still have Totenkopf to move and some of the air units and HQ's. But for those of you who like to think these things through whilst at work ([:)]), here's a picture of my dispositions. (I still intend to follow the main thrusts I indicated earlier but I have used one of the PZ Corps to cut of the blocking units on the Gulf and to secure the gap through the marshes between the lakes - a potential jump off point.

What to with the SS and 8th Pz?

[SGHunt]

...and here's where we're going!

[ComradeP]

How about cutting the rail junction two hexes south of Lake Ilmen?

Judging by the map posted earlier, if you do that the Soviets will have to take a nice little detour with reinforcements coming in from the south, and it will more or less cut the Soviet front in two as they can't really use interior lines effectively as the next rail junction is 110 miles to the east.

The difficult terrain near the rail junction south of lake Ilmen, as well as the many minor rivers, should limit a Soviet response. You could park one division next to the minor river a hex southwest of Lake Ilmen, and the other on the rail junction proper.

The party might be in Leningrad, but you need to prevent as many Soviets as you can from attending.

I'm not sure whether all or just most of your units are from Army Group North, but it does seem that the Soviets have an advantage in the sense that the lower part of the map is basically part of Army Group Center's terrain, Vitebsk, Velikiye Luki, Rzhev and Torzhok all being in AGC's (projected in the case of Torzhok) zone by the end of the year.

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

How about cutting the rail junction two hexes south of Lake Ilmen?

Judging by the map posted earlier, if you do that the Soviets will have to take a nice little detour with reinforcements coming in from the south, and it will more or less cut the Soviet front in two as they can't really use interior lines effectively as the next rail junction is 110 miles to the east.

The difficult terrain near the rail junction south of lake Ilmen, as well as the many minor rivers, should limit a Soviet response. You could park one division next to the minor river a hex southwest of Lake Ilmen, and the other on the rail junction proper.

The party might be in Leningrad, but you need to prevent as many Soviets as you can from attending.

I'm not sure whether all or just most of your units are from Army Group North, but it does seem that the Soviets have an advantage in the sense that the lower part of the map is basically part of Army Group Center's terrain, Vitebsk, Velikiye Luki, Rzhev and Torzhok all being in AGC's (projected in the case of Torzhok) zone by the end of the year.

Two things you have to take into consideration here is that FoW is active and you don't see all of the Soviet units. Even by sending air recon out you are likely to miss a good number of units hidden in forests or see all that is going on in Leningrad.

The other major thing you have to remain cognizant of is your own supply lines. If you start sticking your neck out too far too fast you can get into some serious problems. I've played the Soviets enough in early war to know that if the Germans get too cocky they will pay for it. You might not be able to take an SS division head on, but isolate it far enough from its railhead and then its just a matter of time. I have caused plenty of grief to the German player early on, Trey and Rick can vouch for that.

While the Soviets are weak compared to their German foe at this stage of the game doesn't mean they are completely impotent. Leningrad can be successfully defended as can the approaches to the city but it takes a lot of proper planning and preparation and hope that the German player makes more mistakes than you do.

Andy

[ComradeP]

Two things you have to take into consideration here is that FoW is active and you don't see all of the Soviet units. Even by sending air recon out you are likely to miss a good number of units hidden in forests or see all that is going on in Leningrad.

There's a swamp to the south of the rail junction, with a single railroad. Should the Soviets rail a substantial amount of units into the swamp, the German motorised infantry or the infantry division closing in on the rail line can cut it their supply line turn. The Soviet units in the swamp will then be without a direct supply line and will basically be in the same situation as Volkhov Front during the first Soviet winter offensive: rotting in a place that's almost impossible to supply.

The minor rivers to the north and east of the rail junction should limit incursions, not to mention that the German divisions are still strong enough to attack the majority of the weakened units that try to cut them off.

The rail junction is actually positioned in a way that makes it far easier to attack and defend for an attacker coming from the west, than from any other direction.

Capturing the rail junction could also be the first step for a wide encirclement of Leningrad, east of lake Ilmen. There's another rail junction west of Vyshnyvolocheck that can supply such an encirclement and, if the city is captured, the terrain is fairly ideal for a defensive posture aimed at stopping an attack from the south.

There's also the question of: why invade Estonia ASAP? An advance on Leningrad from the south is probably easier than one through a 3 hex wide land bridge lined with bogs and minor rivers, especially as (after the capture of Novgorod) there are 4 railroads heading north, whilst there's only one going east from Tallinn. Cutting that railroad will also mean the Soviets will only be supplied by the Baltic Fleet, which would also be needed to evacuate units at the same time.

I don't know what the supply capabilities of the Baltic Fleet are like, but if a number of infantry divisions continue to put pressure on the Soviets, Estonia will be impossible to defend on the long term, which suits the Germans fine as there's no strategic hurry to capture Tallinn, just like there wasn't one in real life. The Estonians regretted that, but sadly it's true. Von Jaeger seems to prepare most of his armour for an advance towards Leningrad from the south, which is the correct choice from a strategic perspective in my opinion.

[PyleDriver]

Estonia needs a quick sweep. What happens is areas that are controled (frendly ZOC's), in front, will allow units behind the lines to force march... I perfer a fan attack early where your ID's can reach the front and cover your flanks a soon as possiable...

[ComradeP]

What does capturing Estonia quickly achieve? Soviet units will withdraw when pressured, Soviet casualties will probably be not all that high (compared to the fighting on other fronts, just like in real life) and the Soviet player knows exactly where you're going: Leningrad. Giving the impression that you're advancing on multiple fronts, without knowing where the blow will fall, might convince the Soviet player to keep some forces in Estonia (inland Estonia that is, not in ports waiting for the Baltic Fleet Taxi Service).

Aside from VP's for Tallinn, the Germans won't gain much if they capture Estonia, say, two turns earlier than in a scenario where the infantry clears the place without tank support.

For the Soviets, it's all about delaying the German arrival at the gates of Leningrad, and they can't really afford to leave approaches unexposed. Attacking slowly also has a psychological effect: many people are reluctant to abandon territory they control, even if it has zero strategic value or holding it actually poses a threat to their own war effort. The Germans have more mobility than the Soviets, and one good way of making use of that is by being everywhere at the same time from the Soviet perspective, whilst in reality they're pushing through a single sector.

If the Soviets are fighting at a place that isn't Leningrad or close to it, and are not inflicting noticeable losses on the Germans in the process, whilst the Germans are advancing elsewhere, the Soviets are doing something wrong.

It will be interesting to see how the AI would respond to a slow and methodical walk through Estonia. Personally, as the Soviets I'd probably strip the Baltic states of anything useful aside from a significant quantity of blocking and delaying units and form a wide layer of rings around Leningrad. In this scenario, Tallinn's VP's might be significant too, so it might be worth forming a ring around Tallinn too (which is easier than it would be for most other cities, as it can only be attacked from four surrounding hexes instead of six).

[Neal_MLC]

How many turns do you have to take Leningrad?

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: Neal_MLC

How many turns do you have to take Leningrad?

This scenario is 15 turns long.

[PyleDriver]

ComradeP its about your flank. Do sweep some PzD's into Estonia and clear an 120 mile flank and reduce it to 30 miles or leave it open to a Soviet counter while you drive on Leningrad? You can't take Leningrad without your infantry, 4th PzG will become lunch if it goes it alone...Andy spoke above how he's tormented players by doing what youv'e recomended...

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

What does capturing Estonia quickly achieve? Soviet units will withdraw when pressured, Soviet casualties will probably be not all that high (compared to the fighting on other fronts, just like in real life) and the Soviet player knows exactly where you're going: Leningrad. Giving the impression that you're advancing on multiple fronts, without knowing where the blow will fall, might convince the Soviet player to keep some forces in Estonia (inland Estonia that is, not in ports waiting for the Baltic Fleet Taxi Service).

Aside from VP's for Tallinn, the Germans won't gain much if they capture Estonia, say, two turns earlier than in a scenario where the infantry clears the place without tank support.

For the Soviets, it's all about delaying the German arrival at the gates of Leningrad, and they can't really afford to leave approaches unexposed. Attacking slowly also has a psychological effect: many people are reluctant to abandon territory they control, even if it has zero strategic value or holding it actually poses a threat to their own war effort. The Germans have more mobility than the Soviets, and one good way of making use of that is by being everywhere at the same time from the Soviet perspective, whilst in reality they're pushing through a single sector.

If the Soviets are fighting at a place that isn't Leningrad or close to it, and are not inflicting noticeable losses on the Germans in the process, whilst the Germans are advancing elsewhere, the Soviets are doing something wrong.

It will be interesting to see how the AI would respond to a slow and methodical walk through Estonia. Personally, as the Soviets I'd probably strip the Baltic states of anything useful aside from a significant quantity of blocking and delaying units and form a wide layer of rings around Leningrad. In this scenario, Tallinn's VP's might be significant too, so it might be worth forming a ring around Tallinn too (which is easier than it would be for most other cities, as it can only be attacked from four surrounding hexes instead of six).

You hit the nail on the head about delay, it is very important for the Soviets to delay and for the Germans to push hard. I've tried about every angle of attacking the Leningrad area and there are basically 4 approaches. All 4 have their pros and cons. I tend to use one or more depending on how the situation develops. Heading north to Narva, especially with armor, puts a threat real close to Leningrad and can yield some quick rewards if the soviets aren't expecting it. If that area is not defended in depth, Leningrad will fall quick.

Same with the land bridge between the 2 lakes. Even though there is swamp there, a panzer corps that gets thru there can compromise the entire Pskov defense line further south and cut off the defenses along the Narva.

Another option is to go right to Pskov or near there and force that route. That tends to be the most common approach.

The last approach that works well for me is to divert the panzers down towards Velikie Luki linking up with panzers from AGC. This can really wreck havoc with the center defenses but then I turn 4th P north on the east bank of the Dvina and come up behind Pskov and then choose to either continue north or northeast.

Andy

[SGHunt]

This is a really useful discussion.   I plan to push wider on the Eastern flank, but only as far as Novgorod (your junction South of Lake Ilmen, Pieter, looks to be a very good spot for an ID to hold this long flank, but I am not planning on going any further East).  

Jon, I will clear Estonia  just as quickly as I can (and take Tallinn by storm -that's what Model's reinforced Corps is mustering for down by Riga),  but I was planning to use 18th army to do that, not my armour.   But maybe I can spare a division or two to help do it more quickly?!   The logic of losing an entire flank, and using the coast for that job instead of my precious landser, is inescapable for me.  

I also planned to slip some armour through the marshes, as you suggest Andy, to support the main drive of Tot and 8th Pz from Pskov.   (Does driving through marsh or rough country increase the chance of mechanical breakdown attrition, do you know?   No point arriving on time with no tanks!)

More this evening
Stuart

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

I've tried about every angle of attacking the Leningrad area and there are basically 4 approaches. All 4 have their pros and cons. I tend to use one or more depending on how the situation develops. Heading north to Narva, especially with armor, puts a threat real close to Leningrad and can yield some quick rewards if the soviets aren't expecting it. If that area is not defended in depth, Leningrad will fall quick.

Same with the land bridge between the 2 lakes. Even though there is swamp there, a panzer corps that gets thru there can compromise the entire Pskov defense line further south and cut off the defenses along the Narva.

Another option is to go right to Pskov or near there and force that route. That tends to be the most common approach.

The last approach that works well for me is to divert the panzers down towards Velikie Luki linking up with panzers from AGC. This can really wreck havoc with the center defenses but then I turn 4th P north on the east bank of the Dvina and come up behind Pskov and then choose to either continue north or northeast.

Andy

Andy is true master! [:)][&o]

As for Soviet player - this scenario is as "nightmarish" as it can be... you have to defend so much with so little... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Sabre21]

ORIGINAL: von Jaeger

This is a really useful discussion.   I plan to push wider on the Eastern flank, but only as far as Novgorod (your junction South of Lake Ilmen, Pieter, looks to be a very good spot for an ID to hold this long flank, but I am not planning on going any further East).  

Jon, I will clear Estonia  just as quickly as I can (and take Tallinn by storm -that's what Model's reinforced Corps is mustering for down by Riga),  but I was planning to use 18th army to do that, not my armour.   But maybe I can spare a division or two to help do it more quickly?!   The logic of losing an entire flank, and using the coast for that job instead of my precious landser, is inescapable for me.  

I also planned to slip some armour through the marshes, as you suggest Andy, to support the main drive of Tot and 8th Pz from Pskov.   (Does driving through marsh or rough country increase the chance of mechanical breakdown attrition, do you know?   No point arriving on time with no tanks!)

More this evening
Stuart

You're doing good here Stuart with this AAR. I usually take Tallinn with a security unit since it is rarely defended and it is an objective in this scenario. As for the swamp hexes, I can't say if there is any additional breakdown possibilities in those hexes, that's a good question to get back to Gary, but it does cost 6 mp's per hex compared to 1 mp in the open.

[ComradeP]

ComradeP its about your flank. Do sweep some PzD's into Estonia and clear an 120 mile flank and reduce it to 30 miles or leave it open to a Soviet counter while you drive on Leningrad? You can't take Leningrad without your infantry, 4th PzG will become lunch if it goes it alone...Andy spoke above how he's tormented players by doing what youv'e recomended...

I'm still missing the strategic reason for why a quick capture of Estonia is essential.

Let's assume the situation is going to be as you say, and the Soviets are trying to threaten the German flank through forces in Estonia. The Soviet forces will be facing most of the purple infantry divisions. From the position shown by Von Jaeger in the last post with a screenshot, the Soviets would have a few options:

-They would have to advance 9 hexes to get to Pskov, across difficult terrain and across two minor rivers, not to mention that they would be attacking Pskov across a minor river too. That isn't going to happen. Pskov is also the only city they can capture that would actually threaten the German supply situation, as all other rail lines are not really essential as long as the rail lines leading to Pskov are working.

-They could move towards Riga. Again, they would have to cross two minor rivers and would face difficult terrain and would have to advance around 11 hexes, and they would be attacking Riga across a major river or from a single non-river hexside hex. That isn't going to happen either.

-They could advance into central Latvia. Big deal, nothing they can do there can really threaten the Germans on the short term.

To achieve any of that, they would have to move substantial forces to their flanks. Meanwhile, those substantial forces are not near Leningrad or anywhere else. The Soviets need those forces more around Leningrad than the Germans need a few additional infantry divisions when facing fewer defenders. The Soviets are never going to have enough momentum to advance quickly.

From a strategic sense, I'd really be in no hurry to get to Tallinn as the Germans, there's just too little to gain from doing so. As such, I'd advise Stuart not to use Panzer divisions in Estonia, but to swing the Panzer Army east to Pskov and then north, and possibly further to the east in the full campaign where you have the time for a wide encirclement, although moving towards Vyshnyvolochek is still an attractive idea even in a short scenario like this.

There's also another reason for doing so, which brings me to the points Andy posted.

Narva, although close to Leningrad, is also seperated from Leningrad by: two major rivers, one major river and a minor river or three minor rivers depending on which hexes the Germans attack. Unless the Soviet player is asleep, that area is the dream of any defender due to the woods, the swamps and the fact that most hexes can only be attacked from two sides and across multiple rivers. If the area is not defended in depth, you'll probably get to Leningrad quickly. If the area is defended in depth, your Panzers are in an area they can't quickly relocate from. It's essential to strike in an area where, if the initial approach isn't working, you can hit another sector. That isn't possible with the Narva or "strike between the swamps between the lakes" option.

The latter option can also yield some good results, but if it doesn't your Panzers will not only be stuck in a swamp with no other sectors to hit, but will also be on the enemy side of a major river at least three hexes from the nearest rail line (in the case of Narva, you'd be sitting on a rail line).

The area between the two lakes and Novgorod/Lake Ilmen seems to be the most ideal attacking route for your Panzers for several reasons:

-Difficult for the Soviet to defend in depth, as there are a lot of hexes to cover.

-Multiple rail lines around to ease supply issues.

-If an attack doesn't work in one sector, Panzers can quickly strike another sector.

-The terrain is mostly horrible around Novgorod, the rest is OK.

-Depending on where you strike there are only one or two minor rivers to cross, minor rivers with conveniently located rail bridges.

-You, not the Soviets, can always decide where you strike (because you have so many options), so you can keep the initiative and momentum.

The last option Andy mention is fairly irrelevant for this scenario as AGC isn't on the map (mostly), and AGN is actually tasked with capturing AGC objectives for some reason.

The option Andy didn't mention, but which Hard Sarge has shown us in an AAR of a wide encirclement aimed at the ports supplying Leningrad is a very solid option, but there's probably not enough time for that in this scenario.

[SGHunt]

Sorry for the delay - no lack of enthusiasm, just short of time.  

Pieter, I take the point about not over-investing in clearing Estonia but I do think the 18th army will have a good jump off for Leningrad over the Narva (and that's where Model's corps will be, fresh and bristling with big guns).

I'll try to post a turn or two tomorrow evening, but I've got a busy day
Stuart

[Sabre21]

ComradeP
 
I use the same strategy Ron mentioned about the ports when playing as the Germans once I get past Pskov, pretty much everyone does, or at least tries. This scenario I think is a bit too short to maybe accomplish that, I'm running a game now with it as the Soviets, so we'll see. It is a lot harder to take those ports from an experienced Soviet player than  from the ai. The Soviets must delay the Germans with any and all means, otherwise the defenses of the city will not stand a determined assault.
 
Andy

[ComradeP]

Pieter, I take the point about not over-investing in clearing Estonia but I do think the 18th army will have a good jump off for Leningrad over the Narva (and that's where Model's corps will be, fresh and bristling with big guns).

The Narva area is certainly a good jump off point, but it does require an advance somewhere else to distract Soviet resources from defending that fairly small area in depth, otherwise you're either not getting across the rivers, or only very slowly.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

In those early turns (until some reinforcements start to come) Soviet player has just a few available (i.e. unforozen) combat units... no defense in depth is possible at all... all you get is paper thin wishful frontline... it is very very hard on Soviet player...


Leo "Apollo11"

[SGHunt]

OK time for some more stuff... here's the final position at the end of turn 3. You can see that Tot and 8 Pz have tidied up near Pskov but not done anything too crazy. I have advanced my air bases and HQ's and reinforced Model with more artillery and rockets with my admin. points.