Oleg's German supermen

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
One does not need to be an "expert" player if his srmy is made of supermen. As for being "abused", I lost twice as the Soviets. Not because the Axis were supermen, but because I played very badly.

Here's the thing. It is very, very, easy to claim that the Axis are supermen. But that is all it is, a claim. And until you step up and prove it, by playing ComradeP, (His experience at playing is meaningless as you claim that the Axis are supermen.), then that is all it would remain. A claim.

An empty one at that.

Aurelian you seem to be hell bent on turning this into a flame and I have no idea why. Pieter is sometimes like that too, but he seems to calm down as fast as he boils up and is generally calm and reasonable guy [;)]

It's OK if you consider what I said or think an "empty claim" but it's not OK if you fail to understand or misinterpret what I said. So let me clarify one more time.
One does not need to be an "expert" player if his srmy is made of supermen.

I call Germans in summer 41 "supermen" simply because I like that term and is very convenient in getting the idea accross pretty fast. They are overpowered and too invulnerable for my taste. They don't suffer enough fatigue, TOE, supply, morale problems as they, IMO, should. They are not the kind of supermen where you can just click one button and let them go. They do require lots of skill to be used properly, but when used properly, and with lots of skill, they are nigh on unstoppable. Like a Jedi lightsabre. Will this analogy help you understand? In my hands it's a light stick. In hands of a Jedi it's a weapon capable of defeating army of clones or whatever. But Jedi sabres should belong to SF kiddie movies, not realistic wargames. I guess it's not a good analogy because in SW Jedi is overpowered, not the sabre itself. In WITE the sabre (Germans) is overpowered but still require skilled player to show how really overpowered they are.

In hands of expert player they make the game completely one sided, in any case too one sided for MY taste. They can make the game so ridicolously one sided and as to make it almost unplayable for Soviet. That's my opinion, and that's pretty superman-y to me.

What's so hard to understand in the above paragraphs? If you disagree - fine. Just let the matter drop. No need to misinterpret my words or make it seem like you don't understand what I want to say or I am speaking Klingon.

(I always feel I have to add Soviets have their supermen etc phase, but their phase requires almost no skill to be used, so it's perhaps even more dangerous for the world stability [8D])
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by ComradeP »

There's a difference between trying to start a flame war, and trying to get you to actually prove your argument, which is what Aurelian, others and me are trying to do. I get frustrated because you dodge the bullet and your opinion changes with the majority view, which again illustrates how hollow it is.

Currently, you have an opinion, not an argument, and present it like an argument. The fact that you're a big fan of using hyperbole just shows how hollow your "argument"/opinion is. If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network. I don't come here to be confronted by the same kind of simplemindedness.
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

There's a difference between trying to start a flame war, and trying to get you to actually prove your argument, which is what Aurelian, others and me are trying to do. I get frustrated because you dodge the bullet and your opinion changes with the majority view, which again illustrates how hollow it is.

Currently, you have an opinion, not an argument, and present it like an argument. The fact that you're a big fan of using hyperbole just shows how hollow your "argument"/opinion is. If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network. I don't come here to be confronted by the same kind of simplemindedness.

Everything we all post here is an "opinion", this or that side is too strong, swamps or forests provide too much of a bonus, forts build too fast or too slow, someone doesn't like the interface or the color of German counters.... and we all argue that our stance is correct. What for you makes a key difference between "opinion" and "argument"?

If someone thinks forts build too fast it's his opinion and it's his right to have an opinion. Where do you see a problem? The only way to turn the opinion about building forts into what you call an "argument" would be to get division of Soviets build something for a week in real world. Even then it would be hard to judge is the result of their work a fort level 1 or level 2? And if the result of their work is "2", how much should it influence combat results?

My opinion on some issues is well known. Some of it is shared by others (that blizzard effects are overpowered is almost universally shared opnion), some of it is not-so-shared by others. I would however disagree I sway with the majority view, but if you think so, then so be it. There is nothing bad per se, even if it's true.

So, basically, reason why some people can't stand me is because I write more forum posts than they think I should be writing or I am using "hyperbole"? Pretty lame.
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by squatter »

"If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network."
 
Watch what you say, you pinko cheese eating surrender monkey eurofag. Fox news is the bomb. Glenn Beck tells it like it is. FACT.
 
I once watched European tv, and it was all "blah, blah, compromise, blah, dialogue, blah blah, debate" SCREW THAT!!!! Cut to the chase man! I want someone telling me LIKE IT IS!!! European news is only slightly less pointless than the UN.
 
You must either be from France, or somewhere else where they eat the back legs off amphibians. 
 
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Senno »

Some thoughtful analysis would be nice. Not hyperbole.

I am outlining the steps I take to prep the assault, breakthrough and exploitation. It has helped me improve my game, I think. I don't see supermen though. I hope to in the next game.[:)]

But the game is 'fun" at least, and you have a myriad of choices.

No pressure on the turn though. Take your time.[:)]
ORIGINAL: squatter

"If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network."

Watch what you say, you pinko cheese eating surrender monkey eurofag. Fox news is the bomb. Glenn Beck tells it like it is. FACT.

I once watched European tv, and it was all "blah, blah, compromise, blah, dialogue, blah blah, debate" SCREW THAT!!!! Cut to the chase man! I want someone telling me LIKE IT IS!!! European news is only slightly less pointless than the UN.

You must either be from France, or somewhere else where they eat the back legs off amphibians.

[;)]

The "Stereotypical American" strikes again.
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: squatter

"If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network."

Watch what you say, you pinko cheese eating surrender monkey eurofag. Fox news is the bomb. Glenn Beck tells it like it is. FACT.

I once watched European tv, and it was all "blah, blah, compromise, blah, dialogue, blah blah, debate" SCREW THAT!!!! Cut to the chase man! I want someone telling me LIKE IT IS!!! European news is only slightly less pointless than the UN.

You must either be from France, or somewhere else where they eat the back legs off amphibians. 

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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Senno »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: squatter

"If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network."

Watch what you say, you pinko cheese eating surrender monkey eurofag. Fox news is the bomb. Glenn Beck tells it like it is. FACT.

I once watched European tv, and it was all "blah, blah, compromise, blah, dialogue, blah blah, debate" SCREW THAT!!!! Cut to the chase man! I want someone telling me LIKE IT IS!!! European news is only slightly less pointless than the UN.

You must either be from France, or somewhere else where they eat the back legs off amphibians. 


Oleg, do you take Squatter seriously?
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by ComradeP »

"If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network."

Watch what you say, you pinko cheese eating surrender monkey eurofag. Fox news is the bomb. Glenn Beck tells it like it is. FACT.

I once watched European tv, and it was all "blah, blah, compromise, blah, dialogue, blah blah, debate" SCREW THAT!!!! Cut to the chase man! I want someone telling me LIKE IT IS!!! European news is only slightly less pointless than the UN.

You must either be from France, or somewhere else where they eat the back legs off amphibians.

Indeed, the stereotypical "everybody in Europe is a socialist"-type American strikes again. Considering the number of floods my country and my countrymen have faced, I'm sometimes surprised that we Dutchmen are not amphibians ourselves.
What for you makes a key difference between "opinion" and "argument"?

Opinion: the Germans are overpowered.
Argument: the in-game Germans are overpowered compared to their historical counterparts because they face fewer supply problems and get more replacements.
Factual statement that can be used in an argument: historically the Germans got X amount of replacements, in the game they get Y.
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: Senno

Oleg, do you take Squatter seriously?

I did my best to try to take him seriously but "amphibians" gave him away [:D]
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Senno »

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

ORIGINAL: Senno

Oleg, do you take Squatter seriously?

I did my best to try to take him seriously but "amphibians" gave him away [:D]

Hehe.

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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by TulliusDetritus »

I don't buy this "Germans supermen" thing (and I might be wrong) but for all I care, I am pretty certain all Oleg wants is to IMPROVE the game (is he right or wrong on this issue is irrelevant). I very much doubt he is here to start any "flame war" [8D]

After all, something will be done about the blizzard, or not? So he was not 100% wrong after all [:-]
"Hitler is a horrible sexual degenerate, a dangerous fool" - Mussolini, circa 1934
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Oleg Mastruko
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Oleg Mastruko »

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
What for you makes a key difference between "opinion" and "argument"?

Opinion: the Germans are overpowered.
Argument: the in-game Germans are overpowered compared to their historical counterparts because they face fewer supply problems and get more replacements.
Factual statement that can be used in an argument: historically the Germans got X amount of replacements, in the game they get Y.

If you put it that way, you will very very rarely get what you call an "argument", ie verifiable proven numerical fact about something in game that everybody would agree with. Only production and TOE can be argumented with clear numbers (probably not even that, because even documented numbers are not reliable sometimes)

Mostly you will get an opinion. This or that is too strong in my opinion, builds too fast, moves too slow etc. Germans in summer 41 are overpowered in my opinion. I cannot present anything that YOU would call argument according to your own definition, and I don't claim that I can.

Something somewhat close to what you call argument would be presenting TOE for German units pre blizzard, which in reality was as low as 30-50% and in game those same units on same lines of advance have TOEs well above 80%. Excellent morale and supply too, but how do you measure historical morale? So it will always be opinion A vs opinion B get over it mate [;)]

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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by 76mm »

As far as fact vs opinion, I think it would be interesting to get more info on the % TOE and supply for the Germans just prior to the blizzard in the game, vs IRL. Sure, for any particular game it might not mean much, but if most of the German players suffered fewer losses or are in greater supply than IRL (for which we have at least anecdotal evidence), it might mean something is amiss.
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by alfonso »

From Glantz and House, "When titans clashed"

Table C

Total numbers

German Army (East) 22-Jun-1941: 3.050.000
German Army (East) 1-Dec-1941: 2.700.000

Is that compatible with TOE above 80%? And with TOE 30-50%?
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Senno »

Well, in my game I think those number look roughly ok.

I think the low side will be pretty accurate after the blizzard.

Will have to see though.[;)]

We are approaching winter now.

Soviets aren't counter-attacking much. So I probably have a much bigger army than the testers see. They are the expert players if any of us are.[;)]

Well, that and I'm much to cautious.

I might be a better general as a soviet, ultimately.
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: alfonso

From Glantz and House, "When titans clashed"

Table C

Total numbers

German Army (East) 22-Jun-1941: 3.050.000
German Army (East) 1-Dec-1941: 2.700.000

Is that compatible with TOE above 80%? And with TOE 30-50%?
I know that you're not claiming they are, but the two claims cannot both be true. Not in terms of averages, at least. That, I believe, is where a lot of people - players, testers and developers, alike - are getting hung up. A problem is that though *some* units TOEs were in the 30-50% range, not all were. Which were, is dependent upon the type of actions they faced, among many other factors.

Anytime somebody wants to argue from the data, you have to ask and agree upon "What constitutes good data?". Also, how well does the game mirror this data? Further, given that WWII, and Barbarossa was a sample size of ONE, how does this translate into a game where "probable outcomes", "historical fact", and "playability" all have varying weights in terms of individual preference?

I don't pretend to know the answers. I leave that to the experts to debate. I only test, and make marginally informed opinions based on what I like in a game/historical simulation...[;)]
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by Joel Billings »

My understanding is that the German forces were about 300k short of what they needed to replace their losses as of 1 Dec 41. We've been discussing this actively in the tester forum. My guess is that when people talk about being 50% TOE, they are talking mostly about rifle squads and AFVs being far below TOE. Other elements were in fairly good shape, but infantry are always in short supply when the action gets heavy (espeically for attackers). Fundamentally I think the game is falling short in that the Germans are not taking enough casualties that are out of action (disabled in our game) and are thus going in to the winter better than they should (so are Soviets), and that is partially why we ended up needing such a vicious first winter to cut the Germans down. We're working on improving these things.
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by mmarquo »

"I hope, you and the other guys here will fix it, so i can order it. Mentally preordered i have, but this is - for me the no-go-problem. Maybe we find some (at the other side) in later parts of the game, but in the moment the blizzardthing sounds to serious for me.

Oh, i bet i will be a bad axis/russian player for a long time, but that doesn´t matter. Knowing it doesen´t matter ist the problem - so why should i try if it is use- and senseless, cause blizzard ruins it anyway"

Stop beleiving everything you read on the internet; man up and buy the game. [:)]
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by mmarquo »

"Currently, you have an opinion, not an argument, and present it like an argument. The fact that you're a big fan of using hyperbole just shows how hollow your "argument"/opinion is. If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network. I don't come here to be confronted by the same kind of simplemindedness."

I am not certain how to take this comment. I do not come here to confronted by anti-American diatribes; they contribute little to my inderstanding or enjoyment of the game.

This comment did not contribute to my understanding of the game and was somewhat unsettling.


Deze commentaar droeg niet tot mijn begrip van het spel bij en was enigszins van streek makend.

Diese Anmerkung trug nicht zu meinem Verständnis des Spiels bei und war ein wenig beunruhigend.

Этот комментарий не сделал внести вклад в мое вникание игры и был несколько тревожащ.

Ce commentaire n'a pas avancer ma connaissance du jeu et m'a desaxe un peu.


Good evening, gentlemen.
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RE: Oleg's German supermen

Post by JAMiAM »

ORIGINAL: Marquo

"Currently, you have an opinion, not an argument, and present it like an argument. The fact that you're a big fan of using hyperbole just shows how hollow your "argument"/opinion is. If I want opinions reinforced by hyperbole being turned into arguments, I'll watch some American news network. I don't come here to be confronted by the same kind of simplemindedness."

I am not certain how to take this comment. I do not come here to confronted by anti-American diatribes; they contribute little to my inderstanding or enjoyment of the game.

This comment did not contribute to my understanding of the game and was somewhat unsettling.


Deze commentaar droeg niet tot mijn begrip van het spel bij en was enigszins van streek makend.

Diese Anmerkung trug nicht zu meinem Verständnis des Spiels bei und war ein wenig beunruhigend.

Этот комментарий не сделал внести вклад в мое вникание игры и был несколько тревожащ.

Ce commentaire n'a pas avancer ma connaissance du jeu et m'a desaxe un peu.


Good evening, gentlemen.
Dagnabit! Spik Merakin, ya damn Commie!
[;)]
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