Oleg's German supermen

[Zort]

Now I must be a really poor German player. Have yet to take Leningrad. Have not gotten to Rostov. Have taken Orel, Kursk and Kharkov. But have been lucky I think to get to basically the historical german lines. Now Oleg has stated numerous times how supermen the Germans are. Hmmm, I have surrounded sov units and they won't surrender after multiple attacks. I have had the soviets make my panzer divs retreat.

Now yes the game doesn't allow for things like Brest to hold out for a month, now how would you get the rail lines thru if they could hold out. I think a lot of the ability for the sovs comes in the way they are defensively handled. So making them stronger or making the germans weaker would probably not allow for the germans to get as far. I don't know about anyone else but each time I have started a GC41 game, I as the germans have felt the need to push as hard as I can, the need to push those panzers past the point they should be. But if you make the russians stronger so they can destroy them sooner then why have a GC41 scenario.

I know I probably shouldn't be responding to Oleg but he has put have some good info. What I have seen in 4 GC41s against human players is the soviets get smarter and defend better. I might get almost as far but in worse shape, but I think I am getting better.

So are the germans supermen in 41, naaa, the russians are just really weak. A very good german player against an average soviet player should have an easy time. Is there room for improvement yep, but if the germans are weakened to the point that they can't push the panzers out then it becomes a WW1 game in the eastern front. Should there be a few more soviet divs that have good CV so they can do those couple of attacks that Oleg wants, maybe.

[larryfulkerson]

remind me to play you as the Soviet side sometime

[PeeDeeAitch]

My germans are Super-Duper Supermen.
 
(Vee bring the verld dis order!)

[Oleg Mastruko]

There are some good German players as of late, read the AARs by PDH (How to lose a war), Return to Smolensk by Scar and IdahoNY or AARs by Q-Ball. Edit: Ketza vs 76mm too. Leningrad is almost routinely taken by some of them. Go read them and tell me these are not supermen! [:D]

What makes those Germans supermen is not necesarilly how far they go or what cities they take, but the fact they are practically immune to counterattack. I am not saying isolation - you can isolate mechanized units, and if you're lucky and there is mud next turn - yay. However counterattacking Germans in summer is almost impossible. Incidentally there is a post about just that, in another therad started today:

fb.asp?m=2752873

[Commanderski]

Currently summer and winter of 41 are very one sided affairs.

(quoted from my other post)

As they generally were in real life along with the summer and winter of '42. It wasn't until '43 that the Soviets could push the Germans back during warm weather. Their counter attacks in the Center and other areas definitely hurt the Germans in isolated areas but over the scope of the entire front it didn't slow them down enough where they couldn't make significant gains.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

Currently summer and winter of 41 are very one sided affairs.

(quoted from my other post)

As they generally were in real life along with the summer and winter of '42.

Not as one sided as this game makes it to be. I am pretty sure that, with growing player skill from both sides, the community and developers will tend towards reducing "supermanism" on both sides, and giving both sides some chance of counterattacking.

I am patient, and am enjoying the game A LOT as it is. If the game never changes I will still play it and enjoy it. I just kinda predict where the game will go, and that sooner or later people will sorta-kinda agree with me [:D]

Someone mentioned that weakened sides could lead to WW1 game(s). That's possible, but then again as the game matures more and more people will wish to play a proper 41-45 campaign, not just expresso kill-murder-burn affairs we have now (we have yet to see a PBEM game starting in 41 that was playable till summer 42). So, some WW1-ization is actually welcome IMO.

Decisive, killer breakthroughs and encirclements should require tons of skill, not be a routine affairs we see now in most games played (from both sides, summer/winter etc).

[Zort]

Incidentally there is a post about just that, in another therad started today:

Yea but didn't want to hijack that thread.

Not having read a lot on battle around Smolensk, but didn't the Germans finally surround and capture several hundred thousand at the end of the battle? I think a lot goes to command and control. Give the soviets more counterattacking capability but handicap them in a big way with bad C&C. That is how I look at the game now. They don't have the CV's to conduct good constant counterattacks because they have bad C&C. Can they now make the german life miserable yep.

Guess I better read the AAR's again. So far each of those hasn't shown me much I didn't know and didn't seem to have a soviet player who did as good a defense as has been done to me. Of course it could be just me.

Edit: Looking at some of the scenarios, when the germans send 3-4 panzer corps north I figure they should take Leningrad. Are you are saying that the germans are supermen if they mass large amounts of panzers and inf with SU's and can take Leningrad and the russian player defends the most vulnerable hex with the weakest stack? To me if the germans want Leningrad and commit large amounts to take it they probably should be able to take it. That is not supermen to me. Now if they can take it with just AGN against good soviet play then yes they are supermen.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Zort
Guess I better read the AAR's again. So far each of those hasn't shown me much I didn't know and didn't seem to have a soviet player who did as good a defense as has been done to me. Of course it could be just me.

There really is not much a Soviet can do with his 1=1 ants to make "good" or "bad" defense. It's all up to German player in the opening months. I mean, I played what appear to be good and bad Soviet games (make it excellent and atrocious, really). Looking at some of those AARs it might appear I am very good or very bad Soviet player but really I am neither. I only do what German allows me to do by not being aggressive enough!

If the German is super-aggressive and knows how to use his units there isn't much I or anyone could do. Until blizzards that is. Then everything I said turns upside down [;)] Be more aggressive.

Lets put it this way. In the opening turns Germans have 80% of all power on the map. Probably even more, like 90%, but I don't want to start more flame wars. There isn't much a Sov player can do with his 10% unless German allows him by playing his cards badly. Many German players do bad, overly cautious opening moves then blame it on the game mechanics or think their Sov opponent was "good".

[Zort]

Yea I agree.  Presently if the germans want leningrad they got it.  Interesting article in the World at War magazine of a "what if Manstein had attacked" Leningrad instead of stopping for 2 weeks and if he could have taken it.  The article concludes that he probably could have.  But what gets me is that the soviets took 900 days to break the siege, you will never see that in this game.

[bednarre]

ORIGINAL: Zort

Now I must be a really poor German player. Have yet to take Leningrad. Have not gotten to Rostov. Have taken Orel, Kursk and Kharkov. But have been lucky I think to get to basically the historical german lines. Now Oleg has stated numerous times how supermen the Germans are. Hmmm, I have surrounded sov units and they won't surrender after multiple attacks. I have had the soviets make my panzer divs retreat.

Now yes the game doesn't allow for things like Brest to hold out for a month, now how would you get the rail lines thru if they could hold out. I think a lot of the ability for the sovs comes in the way they are defensively handled. So making them stronger or making the germans weaker would probably not allow for the germans to get as far. I don't know about anyone else but each time I have started a GC41 game, I as the germans have felt the need to push as hard as I can, the need to push those panzers past the point they should be. But if you make the russians stronger so they can destroy them sooner then why have a GC41 scenario.

I know I probably shouldn't be responding to Oleg but he has put have some good info. What I have seen in 4 GC41s against human players is the soviets get smarter and defend better. I might get almost as far but in worse shape, but I think I am getting better.

So are the germans supermen in 41, naaa, the russians are just really weak. A very good german player against an average soviet player should have an easy time. Is there room for improvement yep, but if the germans are weakened to the point that they can't push the panzers out then it becomes a WW1 game in the eastern front. Should there be a few more soviet divs that have good CV so they can do those couple of attacks that Oleg wants, maybe.

How many successfull Russian attacks were there in the first 3 months of your campaigns?

[Senno]

I boobooed with my supermen and accidentally a game out of it.

13th Panzer disagrees with your "immune to counterattack" allegation.[;)]

That, and I'm off to cry that I'm not "good" in your estimation.[:(] I'm close to removing the training wheels from my Panzers, at least.

This after someone jumped on Soviets being "tough." I shoulda stayed in bed. I think I will read PeeDee's AAR on how to lose the war in record time. That'll cheer me up.[:'(]

Turn back, btw. But you know that.[;)]

[bednarre]

ORIGINAL: Commanderski

Currently summer and winter of 41 are very one sided affairs.

(quoted from my other post)

As they generally were in real life along with the summer and winter of '42. It wasn't until '43 that the Soviets could push the Germans back during warm weather. Their counter attacks in the Center and other areas definitely hurt the Germans in isolated areas but over the scope of the entire front it didn't slow them down enough where they couldn't make significant gains.

The German high command halted Guderian in July 1941 because of Russian attacks and separation of panzer troops from infantry divisions. This does not sound like a bunch of generals considering the Russians untermenschen! Russian counterattacks caused the Germans worry and losses. Yes the Russian losses were high, but it took valuable time away from the Germans, which they could least afoard. There were some pockets which the Russian counterattacked relieved as well.

Quoting from Guderian's "Panzer Leader", chapter "Crossing the Dnieper", 'While Fourth Army had regarded the threat to the Smolensk area as very serious, we in the Panzer Group were of the opinion that our most dangerous enemy was now to the south of Roslavl and east of Elnya. As a result of units being retained on the Dnieper, west of Smolensk, crises and losses had occurred in the Roslavl area which could have been avoided. The relationship between the commander of the Fourth Army and myself had, in consequence, become strained to an undesirable degree.' Later he rights (September 5 timeframe) "Fourth Army was ordered to evacuate the Elnaya salient. By now the casualties, which I had sought to avoid by a timely withdrawl in August, had been suffered to occur".

Later in the campaign he writes 'On October 6th our headquaters was moved forward to Sevsk. 4th Panzer Division was attacked by Russian tanks to the south of Mzensk and went through some bad hours. This was the first occasion on which the vast superiority of the Russian T34 to our tanks became plainly apparent. The division suffered grievous casualties'.

Finally, 'On October 9th the Russian attempt to break out near Sisemka, which had threatened on the previous day, succeeded. THe right wing of the 293rd Infantry Division was heavily attacked and forced back through Sisemka and Shilinka.'

I guess the key question is why the Germans waited near the Dnieper in the closest position to Moscow for over a month!

[bednarre]

ORIGINAL: Zort

Incidentally there is a post about just that, in another therad started today:

Yea but didn't want to hijack that thread.

Not having read a lot on battle around Smolensk, but didn't the Germans finally surround and capture several hundred thousand at the end of the battle? I think a lot goes to command and control. Give the soviets more counterattacking capability but handicap them in a big way with bad C&C. That is how I look at the game now. They don't have the CV's to conduct good constant counterattacks because they have bad C&C. Can they now make the german life miserable yep.

Guess I better read the AAR's again. So far each of those hasn't shown me much I didn't know and didn't seem to have a soviet player who did as good a defense as has been done to me. Of course it could be just me.

Edit: Looking at some of the scenarios, when the germans send 3-4 panzer corps north I figure they should take Leningrad. Are you are saying that the germans are supermen if they mass large amounts of panzers and inf with SU's and can take Leningrad and the russian player defends the most vulnerable hex with the weakest stack? To me if the germans want Leningrad and commit large amounts to take it they probably should be able to take it. That is not supermen to me. Now if they can take it with just AGN against good soviet play then yes they are supermen.

I guess what's bothering me is that some of the AARs have a German Panzer Division going tremendous distances without company, and no attempt at a Russian counterattack to break the ring. German Panzer Divisions operated closely with other corps mobile elements, and did not try to take on the entire Russian Army by themselves. I have seen AARs with the Panzer divisions actually broken up in regiments to surround a massive amount of Russian units. Why does this work? Can one German Panzer/Panzergrenadier Regiment be expected to hold back 3 Russian divisions by itself (9:1+), covering 20 miles?

[bednarre]

ORIGINAL: Zort

Yea I agree.  Presently if the germans want leningrad they got it.  Interesting article in the World at War magazine of a "what if Manstein had attacked" Leningrad instead of stopping for 2 weeks and if he could have taken it.  The article concludes that he probably could have.  But what gets me is that the soviets took 900 days to break the siege, you will never see that in this game.

I have heard a similar quote about Stalingrad!

[mmarquo]

So, Oleg - why can't Zort destroyed your surrounded units and why can you successfully counterattack his panzers in '41? What magic is this??
 
Marquo

[Senno]

Are you going to write an AAR, Zort?

[Zort]

Was thinking of putting one up during the blizzard.  My first game didn't have the 1.3 beta 6 patch until after the first turn of blizzard, so now in jun 42 the soviets have 7+ mil people and 4 hexes in most places of lvl 4 forts.  In my next game we are just about finished with mud.  What would be nice is when I get to 42 to be able to post a decent axis 42 campaign.  Will see if I post, thinking on it.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Marquo
So, Oleg - why can't Zort destroyed your surrounded units and why can you successfully counterattack his panzers in '41? What magic is this??

I am not sure I understand the question Marquo? I have a game with Senno going on, among others, but not with Zort.

[Oleg Mastruko]

ORIGINAL: Senno
13th Panzer disagrees with your "immune to counterattack" allegation.[;)]

That, and I'm off to cry that I'm not "good" in your estimation.[:(] I'm close to removing the training wheels from my Panzers, at least.

This after someone jumped on Soviets being "tough." I shoulda stayed in bed. I think I will read PeeDee's AAR on how to lose the war in record time. That'll cheer me up.[:'(]

Senno, 13th Panzer must be reference to some counterattack in our game I managed to pull off? Deliberate attack by tank unit requires 16 (THATS SIXTEEN) MPs. Most, if not all, my tank units in the opening 10 turns have exactly 16 MPs or even LESS which means if they move as much as ONE single hex they cannot attack (and I need delib attack if I am to stand any chance of winning, hasties won't do except maybe vs lone depleted Rumanians).

So, getting counterattack immunity is real easy, just don't park <5 CV units in the adjacent hex to Kiev MD tank units [:D] Presto, you're immune! [8D] Only until winter, of course.

I am not saying you're not good, you're good and getting better, I am trying to explain how much, in my opinion, of the quality of the opening turns, relies on German, NOT Soviet play. If you know a way of saying this, without criticising anybody or stepping on anyone's toes let me know [;)]

[Farfarer61]

It is instructive to play both sides against the AI on Challenging or higher. I figured it would be a cake walk as SU, given that the AI puts up a multi-layered 12=X triple stacked line 100 km deep. Not so easy as a human. I kept Moscow hadily but almost lost Leningrad - against the AI ( for shame). Looking at my tactics, I realized I through away units and formations rather than sorting things out getting organized.