Nato symbols only are a no-go for WWII games

[Theng]

ORIGINAL: Chris10

ORIGINAL: Xian
Chris,

you have a choice too. You can mod the game and make it yourself. 99% of the players here would rather prefer a gamer to provide the sprites to "the masses" than the developers. Their talents are best used for other, more valuable tasks.

Xian

Unfortunately it is easier said than done...on the current max zoom the hex fields are to small to display sprites/icons in a way so that they actually make some sense and look nice...another zoom level would be needed but this requieres a little change in the engine, the map and the user interface...I doubt that this can be modded to look professional not to mention the sprites/icons.
As well it would be necessary to make the different country units use of different sprites which would requiere another change in the engine (assign an additional unique path for each unit type depending on country/type which tga image to use. I suppose they are tga) plus a swap over function that from 2nd zoom level the nato symbols come back by default cause sprites/icons get to small (so that the sprites are actually only displayed when zoomed in full)and an on/off button in the game-options so that people can make use of the icons/sprites or not...so all in all there would be some work to do but without official dev support this is not possible...
but I bet it would look really nice when done and implemented properly

So we are back to a lack of information density with sprites. In any case, if you get more people to support your cause (which you haven't really yet based on an informal tally in this thread) then the devs might actually help you. They are incredibly responsive to the needs of the player base.

[HRL58]

ORIGINAL: Omat

Hello

I am not sure if it is right..maybe this :

He wrotes that these are from the official German handbook of military symbols (H.Dv. 272) of 1938 :

http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... ls_39.html

Omat

One of Niehorsters symbols is quite interresting: "Light tank company (truck-borne)". I think these where used by the german light divisions in Poland 1939, and the divisons armoured battallion sometimes "trucked" their light Pz I companys into combat on heavy Büssing-NAG trucks and offloaded them prior to engagement.

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: fbs

With all this talk of NATO counters...

...APP 6A didn't start from scratch. I'm pretty sure that the X for infantry comes from the two crossed bandoliers, which may be from before WW1.

Anyone actually has some pictures of the symbols used by the Germans and Soviets during WW2?

Neither Germans nor Russians did used symbols in military maps anyway...they always used acronyms of the units types and numbers.
The added map is an original wehrmacht map describing combat missions of the 1st tank army around the Don in Juli/August 42.
There are plenty of original German and Russian miitary maps on the net and none makes use of counters or symbols and in High Commands they used actual miniature models to push around on huge map tables

[Joel Billings]

I understand the desire by some to play with weapons icons instead of NATO symbols and don't want to belittle it. I worked on Panzer General and loved it and understand where Chris10 is coming from. As pointed out later in the thread, providing the weapons icons that are more than just a simple "generic" icon to replace each NATO symbol would require coding work (especially if you wanted more than one per country per unit type, i.e. to show changing weapons over time). We made a decision early on that due to the target audience of this product, we could not afford the time and resources to provide this option for the few that would use it. We actually provided both options in our Civil War game War Between the States. However given the information that the counters provide and the detailed nature of this game, and the customer base we were targeting, we just didn't think there would be many players that would feel strongly about the need for icons and decided to use our limited resources on other items. I wish we had unlimited resources and could provide this option, but we don't as we don't think it would result in more than a few extra sales of the game.

[HRL58]

ORIGINAL: Chris10

ORIGINAL: fbs

With all this talk of NATO counters...

...APP 6A didn't start from scratch. I'm pretty sure that the X for infantry comes from the two crossed bandoliers, which may be from before WW1.

Anyone actually has some pictures of the symbols used by the Germans and Soviets during WW2?

Germans did not used symbols in military maps anyway...they always used acronyms of the units types and numbers.
The added map is an original wehrmacht map describing combat missions of the 1st tank army around the Don in Juli/August 42

Thats not a military map, that's a map summarizing the operations for the staff in Berlin or for the public. A real german military map had the symbols that Omat describes in the link

[henri51]

HRL, I don't see any symbol for say an infantry division or Corps. Is the HQ symbol itseld supposed to represent the division or corps?

Henri

[HRL58]

ORIGINAL: henri51

HRL, I don't see any symbol for say an infantry division or Corps. Is the HQ symbol itseld supposed to represent the division or corps?

Henri

As I said, this map is for the public ...to show the operations for the homefront, politicians or higher staff.

A real german military map att division, corps or army level would have the following symbols shown here:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... ls_39.html

/HRL58

[Omat]

Hello

The first row shows it (Army, Corps, Division and so on).... the little flag[:)]
There a two symbos..one shows the unit strengh and one the type..

here is an example:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... hodos.html

Omat

ORIGINAL: henri51

HRL, I don't see any symbol for say an infantry division or Corps. Is the HQ symbol itseld supposed to represent the division or corps?

Henri

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: HRL58
Thats not a military map, that's a map summarizing the operations for the staff in Berlin or for the public. A real german military map had the symbols that Omat describes in the link

could you please provide some of these "real" military maps for me/us ?
I really would appreciate that...[:)]

ORIGINAL: HRL58
As I said, this map is for the public ...to show the operations for the homefront, politicians or higher staff.

A real german military map att division, corps or army level would have the following symbols shown here:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... ls_39.html
/HRL58

Can you actually proove that statement my friend ?

those maps where usually hand drawn and showed operations of about 8 days...neither germans, russians nor the allies bothered with symbols

[HRL58]

ORIGINAL: Chris10

ORIGINAL: HRL58
Thats not a military map, that's a map summarizing the operations for the staff in Berlin or for the public. A real german military map had the symbols that Omat describes in the link

could you please provide some of these "real" military maps for me/us ?
I really would appreciate that...[:)]

ORIGINAL: HRL58
As I said, this map is for the public ...to show the operations for the homefront, politicians or higher staff.

A real german military map att division, corps or army level would have the following symbols shown here:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... ls_39.html
/HRL58

Can you actually proove that statement my friend ?

Sure, give me a day or so to get a scanner and i will post a military map from SS-das Reich division from the battle at Charkov 1943.

And if i find one on the net i post earlier

[saintsup]

ORIGINAL: Chris10
PG is the father of all hexfield wargames

You're joking right ?

Tiger in the snow SSI 1981
Battle for Normandy SSI 1983
Gulf Strike AH 1984
...
Crusade in Europe Microprose 1987
...
Battles of Napoleon, SSI 1989
...


I played PzG a lot but it has almost nothing to do with a real wargame. It was a very good try to get a largerpublic though.

[HRL58]

ORIGINAL: saintsup

ORIGINAL: Chris10
PG is the father of all hexfield wargames

You're joking right ?

Tiger in the snow SSI 1981
Battle for Normandy SSI 1983
Gulf Strike AH 1984
...
Crusade in Europe Microprose 1987
...
Battles of Napoleon, SSI 1989
...


I played PzG a lot but it has almost nothing to do with a real wargame. It was a very good try to get a largerpublic though.

Well I actually think he's for real ...I've also played all those you listed, but I think this guy is some 15-25 years younger than us [:)]

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: saintsup

ORIGINAL: Chris10
PG is the father of all hexfield wargames

You're joking right ?

Tiger in the snow SSI 1981
Battle for Normandy SSI 1983
Gulf Strike AH 1984
...
Crusade in Europe Microprose 1987
...
Battles of Napoleon, SSI 1989
...


I played PzG a lot but it has almost nothing to do with a real wargame. It was a very good try to get a largerpublic though.

yeah...I elaborated badly...It was not meant in a way like PG invented the hexgame...but it was the peak of PC hexgames and won numerous awards and is still played while all others are long forgotten...

btw the games you list looked all terrible [:D]

ORIGINAL: HRL58
I've also played all those you listed, but I think this guy is some 15-25 years younger than us [:)]

you are 68 ? [X(]

[Great_Ajax]

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/miscell ... 20(2).html

Trey

ORIGINAL: Chris10

ORIGINAL: HRL58
Thats not a military map, that's a map summarizing the operations for the staff in Berlin or for the public. A real german military map had the symbols that Omat describes in the link

could you please provide some of these "real" military maps for me/us ?
I really would appreciate that...[:)]

ORIGINAL: HRL58
As I said, this map is for the public ...to show the operations for the homefront, politicians or higher staff.

A real german military map att division, corps or army level would have the following symbols shown here:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... ls_39.html
/HRL58

Can you actually proove that statement my friend ?

those maps where usually hand drawn and showed operations of about 8 days...neither germans, russians nor the allies bothered with symbols

[HRL58]

ORIGINAL: Chris10

ORIGINAL: saintsup

ORIGINAL: Chris10
PG is the father of all hexfield wargames

You're joking right ?

Tiger in the snow SSI 1981
Battle for Normandy SSI 1983
Gulf Strike AH 1984
...
Crusade in Europe Microprose 1987
...
Battles of Napoleon, SSI 1989
...


I played PzG a lot but it has almost nothing to do with a real wargame. It was a very good try to get a largerpublic though.

yeah...I elaborated badly...It was not meant in a way like PG invented the hexgame...but it was the peak of PC hexgames and won numerous awards and is still played while all others are long forgotten...

btw the games you list looked all terrible [:D]

ORIGINAL: HRL58
I've also played all those you listed, but I think this guy is some 15-25 years younger than us [:)]

you are 68 ? [X(]

Nope I'm not a commie 68, I'm a 58

Edit: Btw, after a hasty search on the net here is one real german military map from Ukraine 1944: http://www.yogysoft.de/images/440404.jpg ...with quite a lot of small symbols under the command flags, if you zoom it.

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: el hefe

http://www.wwii-photos-maps.com/miscell ... 20(2).html

Trey

fair enough but I can only see the use of symbols for army,division and batallion headquarters and nothing else...lets face it guys...there was a list of fancy symbols but the germmans did not bothered with them on a wider and constant scale.

I have seen truckloads of german maps and they always used the acronyms and numbers of the units and only few symbols sometimes for hqs...

ORIGINAL: HRL58
Nope I'm not a commie 68, I'm a 58

just kidding...when surpassing the 40 the age gap is not of any relevance anymore

ORIGINAL: HRL58
Edit: Btw, after a hasty search on the net here is one real german military map from Ukraine 1944: http://www.yogysoft.de/images/440404.jpg ...with quite a lot of small symbols under the command flags, if you zoom it.

face it...when zooming in you only find hq symbols and not a single unit symbol for infantry or alike...for divisions they only use acronyms and numbers...[:'(]

[Godisard]

ORIGINAL: Chris10

those maps where usually hand drawn and showed operations of about 8 days...neither germans, russians nor the allies bothered with symbols

They all used unit symbols on their situation maps. A simple google search brought up this collection of situation maps from the Twelfth US Army Group from 1944-45: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections ... about.html

[Chris10]

ORIGINAL: Godisard
They all used unit symbols on their situation maps. A simple google search brought up this collection of situation maps from the Twelfth US Army Group from 1944-45: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections ... about.html

you said it : US army group...germans did not used their symbols on a regular base...just accept it

and from the earlier war I have seen lots of allied maps (brits) without any symbols

as well you will have it difficult to find russian maps with more than hq symbols

[HRL58]

face it...when zooming in you only find hq symbols and not a single unit symbol for infantry or alike...for divisions they only use acronyms and numbers...[:'(]

Well the Army-HQ:s and Korps symbols are there, and If you look carefully you'll see that some russian units even have the symbols showing their suspected motorization/armoured levels under their command flags.

But if you still demand small pretty sprites to make this a game appealing to the broad public that plays FPS or Racing games I rest my case

[Omat]

Hi

There is only one important point for military maps. That is efficiency....to get the necessary information with one look....no eye candies, no little tanks and no beautiful ladies. On such maps less is more. Often you see on such maps circles or half circles because is shows how much area a unit occupy. But for games like PG or WitE this is not important because a unit always needs the same space.
So if somebody take the argument with maps which used for military personal than I suggest that only efficiency should be the characteristic to display it. NATO symbols achieve this “task”. With one look many information. Sadly beautiful ladies on the map does not get so many ....
At a certain point even symbols are unimportant. E.g. if I want to take an overview over a large area. Than I am only Interested of concentration of units not which one...

But If somebody wants to hustle ladies over the map there shouldn’t be a problem...you can mod it. So I don`t see a problem.

Omat