OT: Red Tails

[Grfin Zeppelin]

Our "white" pilots wont protect the bombers.........like little kiddies who wont listen so whe need you guys O.o. This movie is so bad I have no words.
Oh and of course its smart to portray the Germans in a film in which racism plays a great part like that.

[mdiehl]

TBH, I thought the caricature of the bad German was perfectly reasonable and not at all a distortion. If you had to personify the basic characteristics of German occupation policies and warfare in a single crude character, "Pretty Boy" was the right way to do it.

[geofflambert]

I saw the movie today. I was mostly happy with it. I know we purists will never be happy, but no one will ever come up with the money to make a movie like this that satisfies us. I know there have been great ones (Tora Tora Tora, the Sand Pebbles, the Blue Max etc.) this one I think was comparable to the Rod Steiger Waterloo. Yes we would prefer that they skip the character development and romance to leave time for one or two more dogfight scenes, but the amount of money spent if we all went to see it in theatre ten times would still not amount to crap. None the less, some of the problems were unnecessary and avoidable. I don't give a **** about the markings on the planes or stuff like that but there were problems.

The first is forgivable in my view (it's a movie) where they seemed to have an unlimited amount of ammunition. Following up a dogfight with an attack on an airfield, especially involving more than one pass is clearly impossible. However, a filmaker cannot include such an attack without adding 20 minuten to the film. As it was they edited out a lot of stuff that I know they filmed/animated. Filmakers are good at what they do and we are not, but I feel Lucas made a good effort herel

The attack on the ship: I have no idea what that was (an armed merchant cruiser confiscated from the Italians?) but even if it were a heavily armed tanker full of oil, it wasn't, 50 cals could not cause those explosions. An unarmored locomotive, absolutely, those 50's could easily penetrate the boiler and then watch out. I've seen a lot of gun camera footage that demonstrates that. Tbolts included, they all had 50 cals.. Don't bring up the rockets, I've seen MG only attacks taking out trains. In any case I think that anecdote was made up out of whole cloth.

I've seen some discussion about European racism or lack of it. Let's begin with the Nazis, who were certainly racist, but most Luftwaffe pilot's racism did not hold a candle to southern US racism, actually to northern racism either. Before the war, American jazz musicians and singers were treated like royalty throughout western Europe, and the Germans in particular could not get enough of this American invention, Jazz. Yes, there is racism in Europe to this day, but we are in no place to cast aspersions on them. As for Italians, they had been dealing with Africans for thousands of years, and mostly they knew better, much better.

There's a whole lot of other things I would have liked to have seen, such as their time in Alabama, but I cannot fault Lucas's time management here. I say worthy effort, better than most.

Anyway I don't think mass formations of 262's occurred, but whadda I know. Also it went by in a flash, but I thought I saw an FW-190 on the ground in the attack on the airfield scene, can anyone confirm that?

[geofflambert]

Oh, and Tsugaru minelayer fangirl, I'm not convinced you are a girl, but you probably get that a lot. Plan 9 from Outer Space was so bad it was good, I think your review was not quite that bad. Try again if you want my respect.

[geofflambert]

Oh, but Tsugaru minelayer fangirl, that avatar has got to be the spookiest and scariest avatar I've seen yet. On that count, you go girl!

[LoBaron]

geofflambert, never again doubt the integrity of our only officially recognized hex field fangirl. She´s bright, you
might learn a thing or two.


Ah, and behind that Minelayer sig lies an interesting story involving the forums most disregarded movie.
But this is her story to tell...

[LoBaron]

Though "integrity" might be the wrong word. Considering the background of how the Tsugaru class got her
current fame... [:'(]

[BrucePowers]

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Our "white" pilots wont protect the bombers.........like little kiddies who wont listen so whe need you guys O.o. This movie is so bad I have no words.
Oh and of course its smart to portray the Germans in a film in which racism plays a great part like that.

GZ, I think this was balanced somewhat by showing the racism of the USAAF officers in the officers clubs, the attitude of many in the Pentagon (again shown in the film) and by the attitude of the B-17 pilots when they first saw the 332nd in the air.

[mike scholl 1]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I've seen some discussion about European racism or lack of it. Let's begin with the Nazis, who were certainly racist, but most Luftwaffe pilot's racism did not hold a candle to southern US racism, actually to northern racism either. Before the war, American jazz musicians and singers were treated like royalty throughout western Europe, and the Germans in particular could not get enough of this American invention, Jazz. Yes, there is racism in Europe to this day, but we are in no place to cast aspersions on them. As for Italians, they had been dealing with Africans for thousands of years, and mostly they knew better, much better.

All depends on how you define "race". The Nazi's had little trouble obtaining help all over Europe in their campaign to eradicate Jews, Gypsies, and other "undesirables". American racisism never reached the "final solution" stage.

Both groups basically shot themselves in the foot with their racial stupidity. If you check the records for the First World War you will find that German Jews had one of the best records of any group in the Kaiser's Army...., and the American "Colored Division" (I think it was the 93rd) that served with the French was highly decorated and regarded by them. The racist policies followed by both Armies in the Second World War deprived them of a large pool of excellent combat manpower.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I've seen some discussion about European racism or lack of it. Let's begin with the Nazis, who were certainly racist, but most Luftwaffe pilot's racism did not hold a candle to southern US racism, actually to northern racism either. Before the war, American jazz musicians and singers were treated like royalty throughout western Europe, and the Germans in particular could not get enough of this American invention, Jazz. Yes, there is racism in Europe to this day, but we are in no place to cast aspersions on them. As for Italians, they had been dealing with Africans for thousands of years, and mostly they knew better, much better.

All depends on how you define "race". The Nazi's had little trouble obtaining help all over Europe in their campaign to eradicate Jews, Gypsies, and other "undesirables". American racisism never reached the "final solution" stage.

Both groups basically shot themselves in the foot with their racial stupidity. If you check the records for the First World War you will find that German Jews had one of the best records of any group in the Kaiser's Army...., and the American "Colored Division" (I think it was the 93rd) that served with the French was highly decorated and regarded by them. The racist policies followed by both Armies in the Second World War deprived them of a large pool of excellent combat manpower.

Guys,

Let's recenter this discussion on the movie, please. The direction this thread has taken is very dangerous.

[Thayne]

Having just seen the movie, i found it passable. Parts of it were clearly included for eye candy. They did stress the fact an escort's mission is to protect the bombers. And they got the American racism historically accurate.

Now, what i want to see, is a good quality movie covering the 442nd Infantry Regiment.

[YankeeAirRat]

ORIGINAL: Thayne

Having just seen the movie, i found it passable. Parts of it were clearly included for eye candy. They did stress the fact an escort's mission is to protect the bombers. And they got the American racism historically accurate.

Now, what i want to see, is a good quality movie covering the 442nd Infantry Regiment.

You will want to hunt down a made for DVD movie called "Only the Brave" it is very good

[Justus2]

ORIGINAL: Thayne

Having just seen the movie, i found it passable. Parts of it were clearly included for eye candy. They did stress the fact an escort's mission is to protect the bombers. And they got the American racism historically accurate.

Now, what i want to see, is a good quality movie covering the 442nd Infantry Regiment.

Also just saw the movie, some good parts, and an added benefit, my wife actually enjoyed it (always good to keep an eye on the home front!). I did find myself wondering if they were operating from a Level 2 or Level 3 airfield (when I saw the metal matting, I could picture the 'AF has expanded' in my ops report... ) [;)]

[geofflambert]

I'd like to apologize for my previous behavior, it was uncalled for. I got angry at the idea that the filmmaker was effectively being racist because he depicted the black pilots as being better than the white ones. This was largely true but not because they were black, but because they had much more training than the others since they were kept back from the front lines. As a result they were among the most highly trained pilots in the Air Force and perhaps 3 or 4 parts training can be equivalent to one part experience. There were a lot of things they didn't point out in the film that I wish they had, but they simply didn't have room for all of it.
I'll try and take a few deep breaths before opining in the forum again.

[BigBadWolf]

So, 4 P-40s on 100 ft airfield attack destroy 63 aircraft on the ground? Damn...


[:D]

[geofflambert]

.

[Thayne]

In the movie, they explained the difference as a difference in training. The existing fighter squadrons were trained to agressively attack enemy fighters - while the Tuskegee squadrons were not allowed to agressively hunt enemy fighters. Whether true or not, that is how the movie accounted for the difference - not as a difference in race ir character but of training.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

I finally watched "Red Tails" last night... ahhh...

The air combat depicted is almost totally implausible (and in direct confrontation with laws of physics)...

In the end... watchable and forgettable... almost in the same category as the "Pearl Harbor"...


Leo "Apollo11"