RE: 1.05.61 Axis AI vs fulkerson

[larryfulkerson]

This should be the losses from the Axis half of T9:

[larryfulkerson]

This is the Axis moves in T9:

[randallw]

Yeah, that area directly north of Smolensk is bad to defend.

I look at the map and see areas where a decent defensive line can be made, starting from the north:

South of Leningrad there's a few rough hexes, then heading southeast to Novgorod there are swamps; a reasonably good division in one of those spots will hold against hasty attacks by a single German division.

On the other side of Lake Ilmen you have a river, with the Valdai Hills to the east, then running southeast a few more rivers, light forests and some swamps to the area reaching south of Vyazma.

From there you have the Bola river passing by Bryansk, curving west to Chernigov.

This is a very defendable line, which you can establish before the Germans get there, it's beyond the Axis start line, meaning there will be a few turns of those Germans moving forward beyond supply radius. By the time the first units get there they won't be in strength, and you'll have some time digging in and resting.

Again, a decent ( rifle ) division, around 50+ experience, in a rough, urban, or swamp hex, with a fort level built maybe to 2, will hold against a hasty attack by a single German division. This can provide time for bad divisions ( 25 or 30 experience ) to train up to something kind of useable for defense ( about 40 or 45 ).

[randallw]

Defense modifiers by terrain:

Clear +0 ( squat, nothing! )
City +2
Light urban +6 ( +3 if isolated )
Heavy urban ( +8 ) ( +4 if isolated )
Light woods +1
Heavy woods +2
Rough +3
Mountain +3
Swamp +2

So, don't just sit in the open!

Also look out for this:

15.6.2.3. Terrain CV Modifier
AFV and combat vehicle type ground elements will have their CV (26.1.4) reduced by half when attacking or defending in urban, heavy woods, swamp, broken and mountain hexes. Infantry type ground elements will have their CV doubled when in urban, heavy woods, swamp, broken and mountain hexes.
Mountain units have their CV doubled in mountain hexes, no matter what the weather. Ski units will have their combat value (CV) doubled in snow and tripled in blizzard (22.1).

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

<SNIP>

and lookie lookie the AI made a pocket. I guess I defended too far foward this time.

This is what I have been waiting for! [:)]


Questions:

#1
Was Axis AI too ambitious with that pocket making?

#2
Were Axis units that tried to make that pocket in vulnerable exposed position (i.e. could you surrounded them)?

#3
Do you think that, overall, this was good move by AI (if you take into considerations the next few moves)?



Leo "Apollo11"

[AFV]

ORIGINAL: randallw

Defense modifiers by terrain:

Clear +0 ( squat, nothing! )
City +2
Light urban +6 ( +3 if isolated )
Heavy urban ( +8 ) ( +4 if isolated )
Light woods +1
Heavy woods +2
Rough +3
Mountain +3
Swamp +2

So, don't just sit in the open!

Also look out for this:

15.6.2.3. Terrain CV Modifier
AFV and combat vehicle type ground elements will have their CV (26.1.4) reduced by half when attacking or defending in urban, heavy woods, swamp, broken and mountain hexes. Infantry type ground elements will have their CV doubled when in urban, heavy woods, swamp, broken and mountain hexes.
Mountain units have their CV doubled in mountain hexes, no matter what the weather. Ski units will have their combat value (CV) doubled in snow and tripled in blizzard (22.1).

If I understand it right- if you're in a light woods hex, with 0 fort level, your CV is doubled? (+1 +1) = 2x
And light woods with fort level of 1, then its tripled (+1 +1 +1) = 3x

Do I have this right?

[Seminole]

If I understand it right- if you're in a light woods hex, with 0 fort level, your CV is doubled? (+1 +1) = 2x
And light woods with fort level of 1, then its tripled (+1 +1 +1) = 3x

Do I have this right?

Yes. I think (from the main lines of resistance I see created in AARs) that a lot of people overlook these natural forts.
Artillery and engineers/sappers can reduce man made fortification values, but not god's.

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

BTW, can you please post the savegame files:

- Soviet turn before encirclement try (So Turn #007 if I am not mistaken)
- Axis turn before encirclement try (Ax Turn #008 if I am not mistaken)
- Soviet turn after encirclement try (So Turn #008 if I am not mistaken)


Thanks in advance Larry!


Leo "Apollo11"

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
#1
Was Axis AI too ambitious with that pocket making?

No, not at all. I was hoping to see this behavior all along and the AI finally did it.

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

#2
Were Axis units that tried to make that pocket in vulnerable exposed position (i.e. could you surrounded them)?

As a matter of fact I DID surround one of the pocket sealers. It didn't do much good as far as I can tell but it felt good.

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
#3
Do you think that, overall, this was good move by AI (if you take into considerations the next few moves)?

I think this was an excellent move on the part of the AI. I've got about 6 or 7 divisions isolated and it doesn't look like I can
extricate them either. Moves like this make the game better.

Here's the saved game from turn 7:

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the saved game from turn 8:

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the saved game from turn 6 just in case you need it too.

[larryfulkerson]

I drew some flak for stacking up the isolated troops but there's one stack that was attacked by the Axis 4 times and held their
position throughout the attacks. Maybe it wasn't such a bad idea after all.

[larryfulkerson]

Does anybody need to see the OOB? Here it is for T9:

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

Thanks for savegames and playing Larry! [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"

[randallw]

In a campaign saving units for the long haul may be more important than holding a city ( where industry has already been evacuated ) for an extra turn or two. This is not about a specific thing you've done here but just a general idea.

[KeyserSoze]

Cheers Larry, enjoying reading this!

[larryfulkerson]

@KeyserSoze dude: Good, I'm glad. Anything missing that you really really want to see? I'm flexible and can include screenshots etc. for just about anything.

[larryfulkerson]

ORIGINAL: randallw
In a campaign saving units for the long haul may be more important than holding a city ( where industry has already been evacuated ) for an extra turn or two. This is not about a specific thing you've done here but just a general idea.

Yeah, generally I would agree. But I decided to hold onto Riga as long as possible both because it's a port and therefore has supply and also because as long as I held it the AI couldn't run any rail through there to supply Leningrad. He finally took Riga in a previous turn but the rail building was definately held up for at least a turn or two.

Other than that I can't see wasting troops just to hold a city either.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the situation in Leningrad. That's mud you see for weather. This is a mud turn in the center of the map. A lucky break for me I
guess. Maybe not. Depends on how far I can retreat and how far he can advance this turn.

[larryfulkerson]

Here's the T9 Soviet moves:

I couldn't retreat very far because of all the mud. Otherwise I'd be further to the east by now.