Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Dili

Italy had only 2 battleships when war started. If we can call rebored 320mm guns battleships instead of battlecruisers. 3 in July with Dullio, 2 Littorios were only op in mid -August so 5, the last Doria only late October. Btw Regia Aeronautica was forbidden by Mussolini of attacking Alexandria until August/September when he finally realized that the war was to go on.
warspite1

Indeed, and with the problems that the Littorios encountered on entering service, lets call them late autumn. IMO, thereafter, post-Spartivento and the change of personnel, the excuses run out.
I found an excuse :)
In autumn they were back to 3 battleships due to Taranto, Taranto attack indeed stopped a naval bombing of Souda bay by the 8"inch cruisers protected by the battleships.
warspite1

As O'Hara himself is at pains to point out, Taranto succeeded in taking out 3 (of 6) ships. Only one of these was permanent. The Italians still had 3 capital ships (one of which was better than anything the British had to offer and all three provided a speed advantage over anything the British had except for Renown. The central position in the Med still allowed the Italians to pick their fights with those three for the few months that the other two were out (Cavour never returned).

In addition, its not just about capital ships. Again, O'Hara tries to make the case that one of the improvements in evidence in 1942 was the actions of the smaller units in the confined waters around Sicily and Malta (and of course the continued failure of the cruiser squadrons (with perhaps the partial exception of the Harpoon convoy)) to do their job. These units could have done damage in 1941 had they been used properly. Generally they weren't.

That the bombardment mission was cancelled in the immediate aftermath of Taranto is unsurprising and totally understandable given what had just happened. That excuse only lasts for a limited time....[;)]
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: JeffK

True or False, the Fuel oil situation cramped the RM actions?
warspite1

True that oil was limited but mostly False that RM operations were 'cramped'.

In assessing the performance of the RM, just as with any branch or service, the whole picture needs to be looked at. But before I comment on that general question I first want to cover Dilli’s response:
Yes since begin of 1942. It was practically the last time big ships went of to sea.
.....is of course simply not true.

The Second Battle of Sirte (March 1942) featured Littorio.

The ‘Imperial balls-up’ that was the Vigorous convoy (June 1942) was mauled by the Luftwaffe but would still have been a success had it not been for the Italian ships that put to sea – including both Littorios.

It was the RM’s decision not to include the Littorios in Pedestal (August 1942) due to a shortage of oil (although as Bagnasco points out, there was an emergency supply and what exactly were they saving their untouchable reserve for if not a major operation like this?). However it was not just oil that was a problem – the RM was running out of destroyers.

The ‘big ships’, now joined by Roma, still put to sea for gunnery exercises periodically from the autumn of 1942 and numerous times during the first eight months of 1943. But they were held back from intervening in French North Africa or Sicily. These were decisions made by Supermarina - not by oil. By the time the US joined the Mediterranean war, the chances of utilising the big ships to good effect quickly diminished oil or no oil. There was still a plan to use the fleet in one final do or die operation against Allied shipping but the armistice ended that plan.

So while oil was in short supply (see below) the idea that the RM's big ships practically never put to sea from the beginning of 1942 is patently false.

To return to the True or False question.

Italy joined the war with a known oil position, namely that her navy would have around 12 months of reserves. Thereafter it is not true that they would have no oil and indeed the RM kept an emergency supply (the so called untouchable stocks) in hand at all times. Apart from this stock, the RM would instead have to seek hand to mouth supplies from the Germans – and which it did.

Of course what '12 months reserve' means in practice depends on what the RM decided to do with that oil and their management of expenditure. The profligate use of oil in the first 12 months (in which the fleet was often put to sea but with no tangible results) was a mistake and in choosing to use their reserves in that way, impacts negatively on any assessment of performance, i.e. the shortage of oil cannot be brushed aside as though it was beyond RM control. As said repeatedly, the RM had the central position, they could pick their battles with the aim of making them count. Instead the fleet kept putting to sea, burning precious oil. That was their decision. Given that oil was at a premium, one is entitled to ask what was the point of putting to sea for the operation that led to Spartivento (for example) only to refuse to sail for the enemy initially despite having (what Campioni believed at that time) to be superior forces? And then, despite his cruisers having made contact with the enemy, to refuse to come to their aid and continue sailing away with his battleships.

As noted previously however, discussing the big ships alone is too limiting. During RN convoy operations to Malta the biggest opportunity for the cruisers, destroyers, submarines and torpedo boats was in the confined waters around Sicily and Malta. The British did not send their capital ships into these waters (apart from a few risky end-to-end operations – none of which happened after May 1941 iirc). But the performance of the RM's smaller units was not up to scratch - and when improvements came along by 1942, the chances to destroy the convoys and their escorts was not taken.

So oil is often mentioned in any debate about the RM. Did oil have an effect on operations? Not in the first 12 months and I cannot recall a major operation that the RM refused because there was no oil. That said, the older battleships were not included in many operations because of oil. The operations in 1942 mentioned above were carried out in response to British convoy operations. Were there offensive operations that could have been carried out but were not because of a lack of oil? Well that is impossible to know with certainty, but given the RM track record, it is unlikely. Even when oil was available the RM tended to limit their operations (outside of those to protect convoys to North Africa) either because a) air cover was not guaranteed b) they did not trust the Germans to be able to differentiate between RM ships those of the RN. The latter was the reason given for the no-show by the RM during the Crete evacuation. Imagine what the RM could have achieved then, in conjunction with the damage and losses caused by the Luftwaffe.

Was the oil position known to Italy? Yes. Did they manage their oil according to the position they were in? No. Most importantly, did the lack of oil actually stop the RM from more aggressive action against the RN? No, it was the orders given to the commanders and the timidity of the commanders at sea. Once the USN and of course the USAAF entered stage left, no amount of oil was going to allow the three Littorios (when they weren’t being damaged by air raids) to do anything other than die had they put to sea.

The time to hurt the over-stretched RN was in 1941 with the arrival of the Luftwaffe and with the oil available for use. The RM did not. The rest is history.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

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Interested to know if you have any comments on this dr.hal (or anyone else).

Thanks
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by BBfanboy »

Your knowledge of the subject clearly surpasses my superficial readings, so I am just reading with interest, getting an education!
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by MakeeLearn »


Should have went after the Mediterranean Allied navy at the root....

Gibraltar should had been taken by the Axis and the the west door to the Mediterranean closed. And that may have been impossible without Spain or even with it. A neutral Spain had its benefits yet a Axis declared Spain may have made a difference in many things.






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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

Taking Malta would have been far from straightfoward, but Gibraltar I think would have been impossible. First where does the Axis get air cover, second, Force H would have been on hand to block any attempt and third, what do the Axis use to transport the invasion forces and then to make the landings?

With Spain in the war I do not think Gibraltar could survive, but getting Spain in the war would be difficult for a variety of reasons - not least the difficulty in managing the wishes of Spain, Vichy and Italy - and three into two doesn't go.......
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Taking Malta would have been far from straightfoward, but Gibraltar I think would have been impossible. First where does the Axis get air cover, second, Force H would have been on hand to block any attempt and third, what do the Axis use to transport the invasion forces and then to make the landings?

Could a coup de main have been successful against Gibraltar a la Eben-Emael? If not, why not?
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: warspite1

Taking Malta would have been far from straightfoward, but Gibraltar I think would have been impossible. First where does the Axis get air cover, second, Force H would have been on hand to block any attempt and third, what do the Axis use to transport the invasion forces and then to make the landings?

Could a coup de main have been successful against Gibraltar a la Eben-Emael? If not, why not?
warspite1

I don't know the range of a Ju-52 but assume that any such paratroop attack would need to come via Vichy North African territory. That in itself makes an attack unlikely as effectively Petain is throwing his lot in with Hitler. America would not take kindly to that and Vichy relied on American goodwill.

The movement of Ju-52's and escorting fighters to North Africa is going to be noticed. The element of surprise is going to be difficult if not impossible.

Secondly, I don't think the terrain is ideal for paradrops on Gib - but again, I couldn't say whether it was difficult or impossible.

Thirdly, what is pretty much impossible - even if the first two obstacles are cleared - is how do the Germans get re-supplied?
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Chickenboy »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
ORIGINAL: warspite1

Taking Malta would have been far from straightfoward, but Gibraltar I think would have been impossible. First where does the Axis get air cover, second, Force H would have been on hand to block any attempt and third, what do the Axis use to transport the invasion forces and then to make the landings?

Could a coup de main have been successful against Gibraltar a la Eben-Emael? If not, why not?
warspite1

I don't know the range of a Ju-52 but assume that any such paratroop attack would need to come via Vichy North African territory. That in itself makes an attack unlikely as effectively Petain is throwing his lot in with Hitler. America would not take kindly to that and Vichy relied on American goodwill.

The movement of Ju-52's and escorting fighters to North Africa is going to be noticed. The element of surprise is going to be difficult if not impossible.

Secondly, I don't think the terrain is ideal for paradrops on Gib - but again, I couldn't say whether it was difficult or impossible.

Thirdly, what is pretty much impossible - even if the first two obstacles are cleared - is how do the Germans get re-supplied?

Re-reading the Eban-Emael assault some things became apparent:

1. The Belgians were present in their defensive positions and *did* notice the Germans. The Luftwaffe towing aircraft received significant AAA, forcing some to abort and others to miss their drops after glider separation. "Noticing" doesn't mean that the jig is up. Tactical surprise maintained until 3 minutes before the troops arrive may be sufficient-as it was in Belgium. There's "SURPRISE!!!" and then there's 'surprise'. Which would be sufficient to overcome resistance?

2. The gliders delivering the FJ troopers were quite accurate, landing atop the fort in one case and near their targets in the vast majority of cases. What sort of landing area (vis a vis Eban-Emael) are we talking about atop Gibraltar? Is there a flat spot on top that is more than 100m long? If so, that may have been sufficient.

3. What sort of defensive garrison arrangements were on Gibraltar to respond to a coup de main? Was this like the guns of Singapore-facing to sea, unable to respond to a landward assault? I ask because I genuinely don't know. And one form of defense may be entirely unequal to the task before it with a different assault.

4. To your point about the follow up and resupply: I don't see that yet. A very different kettle of fish that that Belgian bird what. But some of those FJ boys could have made a Hell of a mess of that rock...
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Zorch »

Operation Felix was the code name. S&T did a tactical boardgame on it --> https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/437 ... tion-felix

Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Felix) gives a summary.

My take is that a surprise coup was unlikely to succeed, but the Germans could deny use of Gibraltar to the British indefinitely via a siege. It would have become another front. A lot of Spaniards would have starved, weakening Franco.

Wikipedia makes much of Canaris' duplicity with Franco, but Franco was smart enough to stay out regardless. Only an ultimatum with a German army lined up on the border would have persuaded Franco to join in. The British in 1940/early 1941 were not in position to exploit Spanish weakness in the Canaries, but they would have seized all the merchant ships they could.

Would Portugal have come in if Spain did?

Would the RN have been able to supply a besieged Gibraltar as they did Malta?
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Chickenboy »

Thanks for the reference Zorch.

In looking at a map of the layout of Gibraltar, it is eminently assailable by a combined air and sea assault...Operation Felix had an outside shot at success...
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

Sorry - not really sure what scenario you are talking about, but if its Felix then, as per my post 86, I do not see how Gibraltar survives if the Spanish have joined with the Germans and the Germans lead the operation to take The Rock from the Spanish mainland. Personally I wouldn't say it stood an outside chance of success - I suspect it would be an absolute certainty that the German Army take Gibraltar with Luftwaffe support.

However, that scenario is, in itself highly problematical for a whole number of reasons - not least Franco, Vichy and Mussolini - and the problems for Germany associated with such an event are too often ignored - certainly in strategic games. Some people - certainly game makers - seem to think its a simple case of Franco agreeing to join Germany and away you go. Well no.

Franco's Spain was in a mess after 3-years of civil war. Franco's price for joining Germany was close to realistically beyond what Germany could pay economically. BUT - more importantly in my view - was Franco's insistence on taking French Morocco. This is the killer. If this happens a whole can of worms is opened. For one thing Petain's raison d'etre is shown to be a busted flush. The whole reason for Vichy - for not continuing the fight from French North Africa - starts to crumble. Where does that leave Syria, Tunisia, Algeria and Senegal for example? Are the French in Morocco simply going to stand aside as the Spanish march in?

Moreover, Mussolini gets nothing from the fall of France and here's Franco adding to his empire for being a johnny come lately. Mussolini is not going to bend over and take that. Hell he invaded Greece in a fit of pique because Hitler wouldn't tell him his plans. I suspect a move into Tunisia will follow any gift of Morocco to Spain.

Hitler knew full well (and he was proved right at Dakar) the best defenders of Vichy French overseas territory - without any need for German support - were the French. Instead Spain, like Italy, would be sponges that sucked up German resources desperately needed for the big one to come; Barbarossa. So instead of a Mediterranean headache that he simply doesn't need (his allies more interested in fighting each other rather than the British) he loses interest in Spain/Gibraltar.


My earlier point was that without Spain, an attack on Gibraltar ranges from the extremely difficult to the impossible - and even with a successful military assault via the sky, then falls flat because the Germans cannot be reinforced or resupplied.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Zecke »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sorry - not really sure what scenario you are talking about, but if its Felix then, as per my post 86, I do not see how Gibraltar survives if the Spanish have joined with the Germans and the Germans lead the operation to take The Rock from the Spanish mainland. Personally I wouldn't say it stood an outside chance of success - I suspect it would be an absolute certainty that the German Army take Gibraltar with Luftwaffe support.

However, that scenario is, in itself highly problematical for a whole number of reasons - not least Franco, Vichy and Mussolini - and the problems for Germany associated with such an event are too often ignored - certainly in strategic games. Some people - certainly game makers - seem to think its a simple case of Franco agreeing to join Germany and away you go. Well no.

Franco's Spain was in a mess after 3-years of civil war. Franco's price for joining Germany was close to realistically beyond what Germany could pay economically. BUT - more importantly in my view - was Franco's insistence on taking French Morocco. This is the killer. If this happens a whole can of worms is opened. For one thing Petain's raison d'etre is shown to be a busted flush. The whole reason for Vichy - for not continuing the fight from French North Africa - starts to crumble. Where does that leave Syria, Tunisia, Algeria and Senegal for example? Are the French in Morocco - simply going to stand aside as the Spanish march in?

Moreover, Mussolini gets nothing from the fall of France and here's Franco adding to his empire for being a johnny come lately. Mussolini is not going to bend over and take that. Hell he invaded Greece in a fit of pique because Hitler wouldn't tell him his plans. I suspect a move into Tunisia will follow any gift of Morocco to Spain.

Hitler knew full well (and he was proved right at Dakar) the best defenders of Vichy French overseas territory - without any need for German support - were the French. Instead Spain, like Italy, would be sponges that sucked up German resources desperately needed for the big one to come; Barbarossa. So instead of a Mediterranean headache that he simply doesn't need (his allies more interested in fighting each other rather than the British) he loses interest in Spain/Gibraltar.


My earlier point was that without Spain, an attack on Gibraltar ranges from the extremely difficult to the impossible - and even with a successful military assault via the sky, then falls flat because the Germans cannot be reinforced or resupplied.

Japan didnt made his work; German didnt want to involved the spaniards
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Zecke

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sorry - not really sure what scenario you are talking about, but if its Felix then, as per my post 86, I do not see how Gibraltar survives if the Spanish have joined with the Germans and the Germans lead the operation to take The Rock from the Spanish mainland. Personally I wouldn't say it stood an outside chance of success - I suspect it would be an absolute certainty that the German Army take Gibraltar with Luftwaffe support.

However, that scenario is, in itself highly problematical for a whole number of reasons - not least Franco, Vichy and Mussolini - and the problems for Germany associated with such an event are too often ignored - certainly in strategic games. Some people - certainly game makers - seem to think its a simple case of Franco agreeing to join Germany and away you go. Well no.

Franco's Spain was in a mess after 3-years of civil war. Franco's price for joining Germany was close to realistically beyond what Germany could pay economically. BUT - more importantly in my view - was Franco's insistence on taking French Morocco. This is the killer. If this happens a whole can of worms is opened. For one thing Petain's raison d'etre is shown to be a busted flush. The whole reason for Vichy - for not continuing the fight from French North Africa - starts to crumble. Where does that leave Syria, Tunisia, Algeria and Senegal for example? Are the French in Morocco - simply going to stand aside as the Spanish march in?

Moreover, Mussolini gets nothing from the fall of France and here's Franco adding to his empire for being a johnny come lately. Mussolini is not going to bend over and take that. Hell he invaded Greece in a fit of pique because Hitler wouldn't tell him his plans. I suspect a move into Tunisia will follow any gift of Morocco to Spain.

Hitler knew full well (and he was proved right at Dakar) the best defenders of Vichy French overseas territory - without any need for German support - were the French. Instead Spain, like Italy, would be sponges that sucked up German resources desperately needed for the big one to come; Barbarossa. So instead of a Mediterranean headache that he simply doesn't need (his allies more interested in fighting each other rather than the British) he loses interest in Spain/Gibraltar.


My earlier point was that without Spain, an attack on Gibraltar ranges from the extremely difficult to the impossible - and even with a successful military assault via the sky, then falls flat because the Germans cannot be reinforced or resupplied.

Japan didnt made his work; German didnt want to involved the spaniards
warspite1

I'm sorry I don't know what either comment means. In the latter half of the sentence do you mean the Germans simply wanted free passage through Spain? If so then the British and US are going to take that in the same way as if the Spanish joined the Axis (after all that is not exactly the actions of a neutral country) - and that is not good for the Spanish and the imports (particularly food and oil) and goodwill they rely upon from Roosevelt and Churchill. In such a scenario there is nothing but grief in
it for Franco and Spain. Or do you mean something else?
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Zorch »

Hmmm...

To your last point, Franco would certainly have let supplies and troops go through after Gibraltar fell without Spain's help, the same way the Swiss did through the Alps. Not much Britain could do.

If Franco was 'all in', then The Rock would have eventually fallen, but only after a long bloody battle in the caves and booby trapped tunnels. The Luftwaffe and elite troops there would have been missed elsewhere (perhaps Crete would have been spared).

Hitler should have been tougher on Il Duce. Maybe an Italian reaction to Gibraltar would have led to no Africa Korps? Hitler did give serious thought before he sent Rommel there.

Hitler could have promised Franco French Morocco 'at the appropriate time', along with oil + food to come from surrendered Britain.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Hmmm...

To your last point, Franco would certainly have let supplies and troops go through after Gibraltar fell without Spain's help, the same way the Swiss did through the Alps. Not much Britain could do.

If Franco was 'all in', then The Rock would have eventually fallen, but only after a long bloody battle in the caves and booby trapped tunnels. The Luftwaffe and elite troops there would have been missed elsewhere (perhaps Crete would have been spared).

Hitler should have been tougher on Il Duce. Maybe an Italian reaction to Gibraltar would have led to no Africa Korps? Hitler did give serious thought before he sent Rommel there.

Hitler could have promised Franco French Morocco 'at the appropriate time', along with oil + food to come from surrendered Britain.
warspite1

Franco supplying the Germans is still seen as unfriendly and not the behaviour of a neutral. The British, and Americans in particular, were prepared to be rough with Sweden for their concessions to Germany (justified or not). They would do exactly the same to Spain - only the outcome is potentially far, far worse for Spain due to the state of the country after the civil war. The population faced starvation here.

Again, there is nothing in it for Franco. Note, Franco made clear at Hendaye that he wanted French Morocco - not a promise of French Morocco - as a pre-requisite for throwing in his lot with Hitler.

Re Mussolini, Hitler could have said no Afrika Korps - and would have to accept that Italy would likely be kicked out of Libya as a result. He couldn't afford to do that.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Zecke »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Zecke

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Sorry - not really sure what scenario you are talking about, but if its Felix then, as per my post 86, I do not see how Gibraltar survives if the Spanish have joined with the Germans and the Germans lead the operation to take The Rock from the Spanish mainland. Personally I wouldn't say it stood an outside chance of success - I suspect it would be an absolute certainty that the German Army take Gibraltar with Luftwaffe support.

However, that scenario is, in itself highly problematical for a whole number of reasons - not least Franco, Vichy and Mussolini - and the problems for Germany associated with such an event are too often ignored - certainly in strategic games. Some people - certainly game makers - seem to think its a simple case of Franco agreeing to join Germany and away you go. Well no.

Franco's Spain was in a mess after 3-years of civil war. Franco's price for joining Germany was close to realistically beyond what Germany could pay economically. BUT - more importantly in my view - was Franco's insistence on taking French Morocco. This is the killer. If this happens a whole can of worms is opened. For one thing Petain's raison d'etre is shown to be a busted flush. The whole reason for Vichy - for not continuing the fight from French North Africa - starts to crumble. Where does that leave Syria, Tunisia, Algeria and Senegal for example? Are the French in Morocco - simply going to stand aside as the Spanish march in?

Moreover, Mussolini gets nothing from the fall of France and here's Franco adding to his empire for being a johnny come lately. Mussolini is not going to bend over and take that. Hell he invaded Greece in a fit of pique because Hitler wouldn't tell him his plans. I suspect a move into Tunisia will follow any gift of Morocco to Spain.

Hitler knew full well (and he was proved right at Dakar) the best defenders of Vichy French overseas territory - without any need for German support - were the French. Instead Spain, like Italy, would be sponges that sucked up German resources desperately needed for the big one to come; Barbarossa. So instead of a Mediterranean headache that he simply doesn't need (his allies more interested in fighting each other rather than the British) he loses interest in Spain/Gibraltar.


My earlier point was that without Spain, an attack on Gibraltar ranges from the extremely difficult to the impossible - and even with a successful military assault via the sky, then falls flat because the Germans cannot be reinforced or resupplied.

Japan didnt made his work; German didnt want to involved the spaniards
warspite1

I'm sorry I don't know what either comment means. In the latter half of the sentence do you mean the Germans simply wanted free passage through Spain? If so then the British and US are going to take that in the same way as if the Spanish joined the Axis (after all that is not exactly the actions of a neutral country) - and that is not good for the Spanish and the imports (particularly food and oil) and goodwill they rely upon from Roosevelt and Churchill. In such a scenario there is nothing but grief in
it for Franco and Spain. Or do you mean something else?

I MEAN that How is possible or what the heck around the Japanese HQs TO PUT THE SAMURAIS ON CV;*^*¨^** ¡¡¡¡Can you belivet it¡¡¡¡ warspite¡¡ glad to talk with you all FOLKS see you in the future¡
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Zorch

Hmmm...

To your last point, Franco would certainly have let supplies and troops go through after Gibraltar fell without Spain's help, the same way the Swiss did through the Alps. Not much Britain could do.

If Franco was 'all in', then The Rock would have eventually fallen, but only after a long bloody battle in the caves and booby trapped tunnels. The Luftwaffe and elite troops there would have been missed elsewhere (perhaps Crete would have been spared).

Hitler should have been tougher on Il Duce. Maybe an Italian reaction to Gibraltar would have led to no Africa Korps? Hitler did give serious thought before he sent Rommel there.

Hitler could have promised Franco French Morocco 'at the appropriate time', along with oil + food to come from surrendered Britain.
warspite1

Franco supplying the Germans is still seen as unfriendly and not the behaviour of a neutral. The British, and Americans in particular, were prepared to be rough with Sweden for their concessions to Germany (justified or not). They would do exactly the same to Spain - only the outcome is potentially far, far worse for Spain due to the state of the country after the civil war. The population faced starvation here.

Again, there is nothing in it for Franco. Note, Franco made clear at Hendaye that he wanted French Morocco - not a promise of French Morocco - as a pre-requisite for throwing in his lot with Hitler.

Re Mussolini, Hitler could have said no Afrika Korps - and would have to accept that Italy would likely be kicked out of Libya as a result. He couldn't afford to do that.
Given a choice between being 'invaded' by 'allied' German troops (and potentially replaced by a puppet of Hitler's choosing), Franco would have had to go along, like it or not. He had already (or was in the process of) shooting about 100,000 opponents/prisoners/communists so the starvation from Allied retaliation wouldn't have made him lose sleep. He would have tried to back out later, no doubt. There was nothing but 'survival as ruler' in it for Franco.

Hitler was so ruthless prewar with Benes and Dollfuss(?) that it is hard to understand his reluctance to pressure Franco and Mussolini during the war.

For instance, Hitler ought to have summoned the Italian and Greek ambassadors and dictated a peace treaty. And threatened to cutoff Mussolini if he refused. This would have obviated the need to invade Greece and punished Il Duce for starting that little war.
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warspite1
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by warspite1 »

It's an interesting one for sure. I think there are a number of things to consider here.

Both with and without hindsight, taking Gibraltar can only have made the British position hugely worse – although I’ll park the likely effects here as that is an interesting one in itself. So why didn’t Hitler pursue a Mediterranean strategy?
Given a choice between being 'invaded' by 'allied' German troops…..

Hitler was so ruthless prewar…. that it is hard to understand his reluctance to pressure Franco and Mussolini during the war.

I think there are a number of factors – in no particular order:
- I think the key word here is invaded. The pact with Stalin is taken as read now, but was actually a very difficult sell amongst committed Nazi’s. ‘Invading’ a fellow Fascist country – a regime that German blood has helped to install – is not as easy as it perhaps sounds.
- We know what happened to the last ‘Little Corporal’ that decided to stab his Spanish ally in the back and let’s be clear, the Spanish people are going to face starvation as a result of this move.
- The German ‘invasion’ is going to face an uncertain welcome. Obviously even if hostile, the weakened Spanish Army is not going to stop the Wehrmacht, but Hitler has failed to subdue the British, he has just seen the Luftwaffe weakened during the Battle of Britain. He needs to re-build for Barbarossa – never forget that this is his focus. If he makes an enemy (or even a very reluctant ally) of Spain, this is another diversion he doesn’t need and cannot afford. Whatever the outcome, a large garrison will be required in Spain and possibly North Africa. The Canaries will be invaded by the British.
- Spain and her resources were important to German industry. Disrupting those supplies was not in Hitler’s best interests.
- Remember the timing too. There are only a few days between Franco giving Hitler his ‘shopping list’ for entering the war and Mussolini’s disastrous invasion of Greece that stalled almost from the outset. How quickly realised he was going to have to get involved in Greece I don’t know, but Hitler may have felt the opportunities for Barbarossa slipping from his grasp with all these other commitments.
- Hitler probably remained convinced that a quick win in the USSR (remember this was to be a one season campaign) and he can come back and finish off Britain.
For instance, Hitler ought to have summoned the Italian and Greek ambassadors and dictated a peace treaty. And threatened to cutoff Mussolini if he refused. This would have obviated the need to invade Greece and punished Il Duce for starting that little war.

What was Hitler’s relationship with Mussolini? It’s easy to think of Hitler as the monster he was and so assume there were absolutely no human qualities. But even this twisted perversion of the human race had some identifiable humanity about him. After Mussolini’s decision not to move against Germany over Austria, Hitler said he would never forget this – and he didn’t.

Germany had plans elsewhere than the Mediterranean and, not having the benefit of hindsight, Hitler was initially content for Mussolini to undertake his parallel war in the south. Only when things quickly turned south for his Italian chum, and in keeping with his promise to never forget Mussolini’s inaction over Austria, did Hitler intervene to shore up the Italian position. But I don’t think there was a realistic chance of Hitler stepping in over Greece. Given Greece’s initial response “Ochi!” and the fact that the Italians were stopped in their tracks, the only likely peace deal acceptable to Greece would have meant humiliation (and possible toppling from power) for Mussolini. Remember just a month before Greece, Italy had launched their ‘offensive’ against Britain in the desert. They had literally crossed the border into Egypt and stopped, their commander believing they were not yet strong enough to take the offensive further…... Politically I just don’t think putting Mussolini in danger was an option – particularly as by then, Hitler eyes were firmly set to the east.
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RE: Semi OT, Italy in the Med, a good book

Post by Zorch »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

It's an interesting one for sure. I think there are a number of things to consider here.

Both with and without hindsight, taking Gibraltar can only have made the British position hugely worse – although I’ll park the likely effects here as that is an interesting one in itself. So why didn’t Hitler pursue a Mediterranean strategy?
Given a choice between being 'invaded' by 'allied' German troops…..

Hitler was so ruthless prewar…. that it is hard to understand his reluctance to pressure Franco and Mussolini during the war.

I think there are a number of factors – in no particular order:
- I think the key word here is invaded. The pact with Stalin is taken as read now, but was actually a very difficult sell amongst committed Nazi’s. ‘Invading’ a fellow Fascist country – a regime that German blood has helped to install – is not as easy as it perhaps sounds.
- We know what happened to the last ‘Little Corporal’ that decided to stab his Spanish ally in the back and let’s be clear, the Spanish people are going to face starvation as a result of this move.
- The German ‘invasion’ is going to face an uncertain welcome. Obviously even if hostile, the weakened Spanish Army is not going to stop the Wehrmacht, but Hitler has failed to subdue the British, he has just seen the Luftwaffe weakened during the Battle of Britain. He needs to re-build for Barbarossa – never forget that this is his focus. If he makes an enemy (or even a very reluctant ally) of Spain, this is another diversion he doesn’t need and cannot afford. Whatever the outcome, a large garrison will be required in Spain and possibly North Africa. The Canaries will be invaded by the British.
- Spain and her resources were important to German industry. Disrupting those supplies was not in Hitler’s best interests.
- Remember the timing too. There are only a few days between Franco giving Hitler his ‘shopping list’ for entering the war and Mussolini’s disastrous invasion of Greece that stalled almost from the outset. How quickly realised he was going to have to get involved in Greece I don’t know, but Hitler may have felt the opportunities for Barbarossa slipping from his grasp with all these other commitments.
- Hitler probably remained convinced that a quick win in the USSR (remember this was to be a one season campaign) and he can come back and finish off Britain.
For instance, Hitler ought to have summoned the Italian and Greek ambassadors and dictated a peace treaty. And threatened to cutoff Mussolini if he refused. This would have obviated the need to invade Greece and punished Il Duce for starting that little war.

What was Hitler’s relationship with Mussolini? It’s easy to think of Hitler as the monster he was and so assume there were absolutely no human qualities. But even this twisted perversion of the human race had some identifiable humanity about him. After Mussolini’s decision not to move against Germany over Austria, Hitler said he would never forget this – and he didn’t.

Germany had plans elsewhere than the Mediterranean and, not having the benefit of hindsight, Hitler was initially content for Mussolini to undertake his parallel war in the south. Only when things quickly turned south for his Italian chum, and in keeping with his promise to never forget Mussolini’s inaction over Austria, did Hitler intervene to shore up the Italian position. But I don’t think there was a realistic chance of Hitler stepping in over Greece. Given Greece’s initial response “Ochi!” and the fact that the Italians were stopped in their tracks, the only likely peace deal acceptable to Greece would have meant humiliation (and possible toppling from power) for Mussolini. Remember just a month before Greece, Italy had launched their ‘offensive’ against Britain in the desert. They had literally crossed the border into Egypt and stopped, their commander believing they were not yet strong enough to take the offensive further…... Politically I just don’t think putting Mussolini in danger was an option – particularly as by then, Hitler eyes were firmly set to the east.
Well...I agree that Hitler was fixated on Russia. Getting Britain to make peace was second priority. Everything else was on the back burner. Hitler lacked rational strategic planning.

I thought it was Portugal's wolfram/tungsten that Germany needed, not any resources from Spain. Salazar is another unknown here. A fellow fascist, but Portugal was Britain's 'oldest ally'. His support for Franco during the Civil War was important.

I don't believe there was any prospect of Mussolini being toppled while Germany was winning the war in 1940-1941.
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