So the Japanese never invented the bulldozer?

[mdiehl]

I don't know many people who think "Japan" when they try to imagine an ethnic group or nation reknowned for railroad construction. (They've done some impressive work for sure, but so have most industrial nations). In civil engineering the US was tops from the mid-19thC until about 20 years ago in re "daring to undertake preposterous achievements of construction." Now it's hard to say who's "tops" if one cares for "could Mighty Mouse take on Godzilla?" type arguments. There's China and India to consider.

For my buck, if you want to move a mountain with moles, the Chinese are where it is at. When you look at the rates that they cut tunnel and laid track in the construction of the Central Pacific RR using nothing but nitro, picks and shovels, it's mind warping.

The point in general here is NOT that the Japanese did not know how to make RRs or airfields or residential buildings or lacked engineers. The point is that they lacked the logistical emphasis and reosources to make, deploy, supply and maintain the sorts of equipment to make impressive accomplishments in civil engineering in remote places. Marston mat being another poster's excellent example. The Japanese would have loved to have the luxury of so much steel to make perforated steel plate available as a freaking ground cover ANYWHERE... even in Japan. The US made so much of that stuff that it was a black market commodity in the CenPac and SoPac.... traded away to locals who used the stuff for making house walls, roofs, pig pens, ad nauseam.

[Charles2222]

I don't know anything about construction, but if you didn't have bulldozers, and instead had manpower, wouldn't you be blasting more instead, assuming you had the explosives? Maybe less efficient and maybe not as versatile as a dozer, but smaller chunks make moving immovable objects not so immovable, right?

[mdiehl]

Absolutely that is the other way to do it. The problem with huge labor pools is that the logistical costs are that much greater. You have to feed, provide sanitation, medical care and housing for all the laborers. If it's, say, 500 guys vs. 1 D8, your logistical problems are greatly simplified by using the D8... assuming you can build, transport and maintain it in remote places where you need it.

[Damien Thorn]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

I don't know many people who think "Japan" when they try to imagine an ethnic group or nation reknowned for railroad construction.

I don't know who WOULDN'T think of Japan. Japan has railroads that cross all over the country. So much so that it makes in-coutry air flights almost pointless. When people think of fast trains everyone thinks of Japan with the original Shinkansen (bullet train). If you have ever been to Japan you would be duely impressed with their tain system. The trains always run on time, stop within inches of the markings on the platform, and have an almost spotless safty record. There are many places in Japan where you can enjoy mild weather on the Eastern side of a mountain range and then take a train THROUGH the mountain to enjoy snow skiing on the Western sidem and then be back home again in time for dinner.
Japan doesn't just waste all that rock and dirt that they remove tunneling through mountains either. They use it to build artificial islands. Now THAT'S engineering. If you look at the old port district in Nagasaki you might wonder why it is so far inland. Well, it wasn't at one time. They used landfill to expand the city by a large amount.
Japanese engineering has always been impressive. The city trams and railcars were running in Hiroshima three days after the atomic bomb blast.

The point in general here is NOT that the Japanese did not know how to make RRs or airfields or residential buildings or lacked engineers. The point is that they lacked the logistical emphasis and reosources to make, deploy, supply and maintain the sorts of equipment to make impressive accomplishments in civil engineering in remote places.

If that is the case then it should be represented in the game by a lack of supply and problems moving supply to where it is needed. I think that is already addressed adequetly in the game.

Let the Japanese start with zero bulldozers if you want bu let the OoB include full engineering vehicle lists, like the Americans. It will be up to the Japanese player to manage his economy well enough to ever get those OoB filled out with actual vehicles.

[mdiehl]

I don't know who WOULDN'T think of Japan. Japan has railroads that cross all over the country. So much so that it makes in-coutry air flights almost pointless. When people think of fast trains everyone thinks of Japan with the original Shinkansen (bullet train). If you have ever been to Japan you would be duely impressed with their tain system. The trains always run on time, stop within inches of the markings on the platform, and have an almost spotless safty record. There are many places in Japan where you can enjoy mild weather on the Eastern side of a mountain range and then take a train THROUGH the mountain to enjoy snow skiing on the Western sidem and then be back home again in time for dinner.

Pax. Peace. Detente. Truce. I'm not knocking "modern" Japan. The Shinkansen was a feat. The extent to which modern Japanese public transportation eases the burden is a miracle of forward thinking. Wish the US would do more of the same in re moving people. That said, all industrial nations built lots of RR. Having a sophisticated railway system is a rather garden variety par for the course "vanilla" achievement. But all those things (except high speed rail), including riding a train through three major climatic zones in the space of a few hours, were accomplished in the United States in 1869.

Japan doesn't just waste all that rock and dirt that they remove tunneling through mountains either. They use it to build artificial islands. Now THAT'S engineering. If you look at the old port district in Nagasaki you might wonder why it is so far inland. Well, it wasn't at one time. They used landfill to expand the city by a large amount.
Japanese engineering has always been impressive. The city trams and railcars were running in Hiroshima three days after the atomic bomb blast.

No one's knocking civil engineering now or then. But other nations did all that. The specific discussion was how one goes to a remote, desolate, difficult to supply, low population area and solves major problems of civil engineering. Japan was not, during or prior to WW2, renowned at such things. Chinese laborers were. And the US was. Examples abound. The Transcontinental RR. The Panama Canal. The Hoover, Grand Coulee, and Roosevelt Dams. The TVA. The Al-Can highway. As a British wit in North Africa in December 1942 commented "The Americans don't solve problems. They overwhelm them."

Let the Japanese start with zero bulldozers if you want bu let the OoB include full engineering vehicle lists, like the Americans. It will be up to the Japanese player to manage his economy well enough to ever get those OoB filled out with actual vehicles.

I guess if that floats your boat. But it seems as improbable as the US having SLBMs. The dedication to logistics was a MINDSET not something that just results from tinkering with production. The US developed that mindset durinfg the Civil War and carried to extreme.
Imagining the Japanese WITH that mindset is a little like imagining the Japanese without any sense of Bushido.

[Charles2222]

mdiehl: But if the Chinese were so great while the Japanese were not, weren't the Chinese used as forced labor, especially it being likely they would aid in an area that Japan might had been deficient?

[mdiehl]

There's a world of difference between "forced" labor and paid labor in re productivity. Holding a gun to someone's head may get them to work, but the results are predictable. Surly labor, seething with discontent, inclined to sabotage their own work, inclined to work at the pace that is just satisfactory enough to make "shirking" a plausibly deniable accusation.

[Charles2222]

Well there's always the "100 men will be shot" for every act of sabotage that countermands that to a degree.

BTW, weren't the Chinese in the Great West pretty much forced labor? Is this to suggest that the forced Chinese labor in the West weren't prone to sabotage while the Chinese under JA direction were?

[UncleBuck]

Where is the Great West? Is this like the East Sea?

UB

[mdiehl]

BTW, weren't the Chinese in the Great West pretty much forced labor?

No, not "forced" in the least. The CenPac paid them wages that were competitive with the wages paid to European-Americans, and because of various discriminatory laws the Chinese were excluded from many of the more lucrative mercantile, mining, and small business opportunities on the west coast. The CenPac came to favor Chinese laborers because they maintained better health (more diverse diet, and they tended to boil their water in prep for tea) and they did not demand rations from the company as did the European Americans, so the CenPac's profit margins were that much better.

[Damien Thorn]

I don't really care if the Japanese get their bulldozers or not. A few bulldozers won't make or break their base building schedule. Supply will most likely be the real limiting factor.

I would, however, like to see the number of engineering units that can work on the same project limited in some way. Apollo had a great suggestion in another thread of limiting the number of units working on a base to equal the SPS of the hex. I like that idea. It would prevent the insta-base phenomena we saw in UV.

[Cap Mandrake]

I dont think anyone is saying Japanese engineers were inferior, but there can be no doubt about the jaw-dropping levels of resources the US was able to throw at problems.

One of my favorite examples is the construction of the Oak River nuclear facilities in Tenn. for the Manhattan project. It is early 1942 and gen Groves has three identified potential methods (gasseous diffusion, electromagnetic separation and gas centrifuges) for Uranium separation, none of which even have a working prototype beyond the investigational stage and there is no certainty about which method is superior. What to do? No problem...just build all 3! So he knows he will need shocking amounts of electrical power. No problem...the TVA just built a bunch of dams just for fun. There are 3 nice little valleys in Tennessee with plenty of water from the Clinch River and workers in Nashville and the TVA dams. So there are 37,000 people in the way. No problem, he condemns the properties and buys them out. So there is a shortage of copper for the miles of electrical conductors needed for the Calutrons. No problem, they BORROW 14,000 metric TONS of silver ingots from the national treasury to make freakin silver wire!
No place for the workers to live. No problem..they build a house a day. Need lab space..no problem...just pour enough concrete for a mile long building.

After all this, the yield from the Calutrons (electromagnetic separation) was one freakin GRAM of U-235!

The Japanese never had a chance. The examples are limitless. Adak runway gets muddy in bad weather. No Problem...lets just make the whole freakin runway out of heavy duty steel mats. Weather is bad and no good harbors in Normandy..no problem..lets just make massive concrete structures to sink in place and MAKE a freakin harbor. Burma road not done yet...no problem...lets just FLY the supplies in.

[Charles2222]

I did a little reading up on the coolies since I posted that, and I hadn't considered the implications of them actually getting paid, but, it was basically nothing, as the immigrants themselves were only not slaves because they were paid something. I've seen arguments before that the slaves of the North (Civil War time), this immigrant set, were actually worse off than the real slaves of the South, but that's just an aside. I think the coolies were also promised land for their efforts, which of course a lot of it was taken from them anyway or never granted.

I found also quite interestingly that although the Chinese did good work, thereby displacing some of the Whites, that when the Japanese came over they were found better than the Chinese and were dsiplacing some Chinese. Both the Chinese and Japanese were all considered unskilled labor. The descandants of the coolies pretty much became the slaves of the Japanese (Kwantung area). Having said that, I wouldn't go basing Chinese expertise in earth moving on what happened in the Great West, afterall, the Japanese, as I said, for what few of them there were in comparison, were found to do better, but both were unskilled nonetheless.

[DrewMatrix]

but, it was basically nothing, as the immigrants themselves were only not slaves

As an aside slaves have an economic cost too. It isn't all wages (although some slaves were paid) but usually includes housing/clothing/food.

That is why (contrary to popular opinion) the Romans used relatively few slaves compared to the number of free peasant unskilled laborers.

[neuromancer]

ORIGINAL: Wilhammer
I agree that the idea that the Japanese Engineering was 'primitive' smacks of left over propoganda from the war.

[sarcasm]
Galldang it boy! Of course they was primitive. And small! And weak! And stupid!

We white folks beat a nation the size of a postage stamp not because we had orders of magnitude more manpower, industrial capability, and resources, but because we were on the side of right, justice, and truth. And thus by definition, wre must be smarter!
[/sarcasm]

There have been arguements about whether the Axis ever had a chance, but I think the point that is often forgoten is not whether they had a chance, but rather just how much trouble two small countries stirred up, despite the fact that they were outnumbered so badly, and facing industrial capacity that dwarfed their own.

We like to look back with 60 years of hind sight and say "Those poor deluded fools, taking on the rest of the world like that, how dumb they were" and laugh pityingly. And yet we still act out of prejudice.

Saying that Japanese Engineering batallions didn't have any heavy equipment simply because they never used the monster D8 Cat (and ignoring that a lot of Allied Enineering units didn't always have them either), is just such an example of prejudice. Its the same sort of thing that caused the militaries of the time to discount the fighting ability of the Japanese military, grossly under-estimate your opponent, and then act all surprised when they kick you in the teeth!

And after 60 years, the lesson still haven't been learned.

[mdiehl]

did a little reading up on the coolies since I posted that, and I hadn't considered the implications of them actually getting paid, but, it was basically nothing

"Basically nothing" is a relative term. They were paid rates that were comparable to the wages paid to unskilled Euro-americans working on the same jobs when the Central Pacific was built.

as the immigrants themselves were only not slaves because they were paid something.

That dog won't bark. The overseas Chinese were hired in teams, paid wages that were for the time competitive for unskilled labor laying track and cutting tunnel (hint, in those days people weren't paid by the hour), and free to leave. There was no "company store" effect a la e1900s Tennessee coal mine etc. By 1890 the situaton had greatly deteriorated for the overseas Chinese, but that's not applocable to 1869.

I've seen arguments before that the slaves of the North (Civil War time), this immigrant set, were actually worse off than the real slaves of the South, but that's just an aside.

I've seen the same arguments. Written by CSA fanboys as a kind of propaganda to excuse slavery. Free blacks and slaves alike knew in 1862 where they'd prefer to live.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

ORIGINAL: Wilhammer
I agree that the idea that the Japanese Engineering was 'primitive' smacks of left over propoganda from the war.

[sarcasm]
Galldang it boy! Of course they was primitive. And small! And weak! And stupid!

We white folks beat a nation the size of a postage stamp not because we had orders of magnitude more manpower, industrial capability, and resources, but because we were on the side of right, justice, and truth. And thus by definition, wre must be smarter!
[/sarcasm]

There have been arguements about whether the Axis ever had a chance, but I think the point that is often forgoten is not whether they had a chance, but rather just how much trouble two small countries stirred up, despite the fact that they were outnumbered so badly, and facing industrial capacity that dwarfed their own.

We like to look back with 60 years of hind sight and say "Those poor deluded fools, taking on the rest of the world like that, how dumb they were" and laugh pityingly. And yet we still act out of prejudice.

Saying that Japanese Engineering batallions didn't have any heavy equipment simply because they never used the monster D8 Cat (and ignoring that a lot of Allied Enineering units didn't always have them either), is just such an example of prejudice. Its the same sort of thing that caused the militaries of the time to discount the fighting ability of the Japanese military, grossly under-estimate your opponent, and then act all surprised when they kick you in the teeth!

And after 60 years, the lesson still haven't been learned.

You claim that a comparison of Japanese to US engineering resources which argues for greater US capacity is based on "prejudice". [:-] No one is saying that the Japanese were not formidable opponents and certainly no one has made such a claim about the Germans either. We can leave the Italians out of the discussion.

In fact, I dont think ANYONE was talking about combat power in this discussion. Get off your high horse sir. If you cant see the difference between a US Seabee Bn with dozens of heavy duty vehicles, mountains of spare parts and virtually unlimited gasoline and a Japanese unit operating in virtual isolation with a few vehicles, limited fuel and 1000 Korean slave-laborers in sandals living on 1000 calories of rice a day...then I dont know what to say. Much can be accomplished with a strong back and a pick, but 500 HP is faster.

As a prior poster noted, the important thing for game purposes in the relative construction power of the units. That US units had better resources is really indisputable.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

did a little reading up on the coolies since I posted that, and I hadn't considered the implications of them actually getting paid, but, it was basically nothing

"Basically nothing" is a relative term. They were paid rates that were comparable to the wages paid to unskilled Euro-americans working on the same jobs when the Central Pacific was built.

as the immigrants themselves were only not slaves because they were paid something.

That dog won't bark. The overseas Chinese were hired in teams, paid wages that were for the time competitive for unskilled labor laying track and cutting tunnel (hint, in those days people weren't paid by the hour), and free to leave. There was no "company store" effect a la e1900s Tennessee coal mine etc. By 1890 the situaton had greatly deteriorated for the overseas Chinese, but that's not applocable to 1869.

I've seen arguments before that the slaves of the North (Civil War time), this immigrant set, were actually worse off than the real slaves of the South, but that's just an aside.

I've seen the same arguments. Written by CSA fanboys as a kind of propaganda to excuse slavery. Free blacks and slaves alike knew in 1862 where they'd prefer to live.

All I leave for comments regarding the coolies conditions is for you to read this please: http://www.geocities.com/nai_cilh/servitude.html
In any event, we only got into the coolies because you thought they were some great engineers, whereas not only were the Japanese beating them out over there (we're talking about Japanese propensity for engineering you'll recall) but it wasn't in the slightest way any indication of engineering as both those Japanese and Chinese (and Koreans if you must) were 'unskilled'. IOW, the guys who owned the railroad didn't consult them on how to lay track and remove obstacles.

[tacticon]

For game purposes (any one remember WITP) all Allied and Japanese engineering units are equally skilled. They can all build level 9 airfields, ports, and forts. Here is my proposal to both Allied and Japanese fanboys.

Create a new engineering vehicle worth 5 engineer points in the data base called Crappy Dozer. Reduce all Japanese Engineer units by 20 engineer squads, add 10 Korean Labor Squads and 2 Crappy Dozers. This more accurately reflects Japanese TOE and yet retains the qualitative advantage of Seabees. Then we add an extra slot to Japanese units for Engineer Vehicles (up to 20). Create a factory type to build EV which requires one engine to build one EV. This would reflect the proper amount industrial allocation and prestige required by Japan to build engineering units equivalent to US Seabee’s.

As the Supreme Commander of Imperial forces it is now my choice as to the level of quality I choose to fight with. Do I want more Zeros or more EV?

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: tacticon

For game purposes (any one remember WITP) all Allied and Japanese engineering units are equally skilled. They can all build level 9 airfields, ports, and forts. Here is my proposal to both Allied and Japanese fanboys.

Create a new engineering vehicle worth 5 engineer points in the data base called Crappy Dozer. Reduce all Japanese Engineer units by 20 engineer squads, add 10 Korean Labor Squads and 2 Crappy Dozers. This more accurately reflects Japanese TOE and yet retains the qualitative advantage of Seabees. Then we add an extra slot to Japanese units for Engineer Vehicles (up to 20). Create a factory type to build EV which requires one engine to build one EV. This would reflect the proper amount industrial allocation and prestige required by Japan to build engineering units equivalent to US Seabee’s.

As the Supreme Commander of Imperial forces it is now my choice as to the level of quality I choose to fight with. Do I want more Zeros or more EV?

Well I have to say that is uncommon good sense, sir. Props to you tacticon. Now please, hie thee to the Airplane Upgrades thread and inject a similar dose of reason.....