Ground Combat and Supply - TESTED!!!

[treespider]

The next test I cut the Japanese divisions supply from 4000 to 1700 just above the 1500 required but not more than 2x i left the corps HQ in place and here is the combat run ----

Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 475
Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 32

Japanese assault odds: 14 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
46 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
223 casualties reported
Guns lost 8


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Surprisingly the Japanese Assault Value went even higher even though the division had less than half the previous combats supply....IMO 2x Supply for combat bonuses is a myth....Shame on you Mogami[:-] for suggesting this in the first place...

[treespider]

For the final test I left the Corps HQ in place but I cut the Japanese divisions supply from 1700 to 500 less than 1/3 of it required value - and here is where the lack of supply showed its ugly head...

Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 26
Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 47

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
83 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Allied ground losses:
105 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

[Andy Mac]

Great test treespider looks like supply is not the issue for those fighting in Chungking I titally underestimated the impact of Corps HQ thats a massive impact.
 
Can I ask the supply status of the Corps HQ for these tests ?

[Andy Mac]

I am amazed that without a corps HQ the AV is reduced so much in the first run

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Great test treespider looks like supply is not the issue for those fighting in Chungking I titally underestimated the impact of Corps HQ thats a massive impact.

Can I ask the supply status of the Corps HQ for these tests ?

Corps HQ was allocated 300 and required 180.

[treespider]

- Here is the Japanese Unit used for testing -
Note I increased the amount of support in the unit so that it was not short....

[treespider]

And the Chinese test unit - likewise with increased support-

[treespider]

Just ran two more tests - in these tests I placed 20,000 supply in Kaifeng two hexes away and restored the japanese Division to 4000 supply.

Notice what happens to the Japanese Assault Value - these are two seperate runs -

Run #1
Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 209

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 70

Japanese assault odds: 2 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
34 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Run #2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 218

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 51

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
130 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Allied ground losses:
161 casualties reported
Guns lost 9


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!



The reason i ran this test a second time was the only difference between this test and the test where I added the corps HQ was the presence of 20,000 supply in Kaifeng two hexes away....yet in both of these runs the Japanese Assault value is approximately 1/2 of what it was without the supply in Kaifeng -[&:]

[treespider]

Interesting side note -

For these tests I eliminated all of the other ground and air units on the map I also set all industry, resources, etc to 0 and eliminated all of the supply except for the 20,000 at Kaifeng and those with the units.

I decided to run two turns to see what happened to the 20,000. Within two days it had all evaportaed except for 39 at four seperate bases- presumably as a result of having no garrisons for the Japanese controlled chinese ports and airfields which generated guerilla activity.

[Sneer]

nice test
but ...
i have 10 diffrent hqs at chungking - to give support  - 6 of them are corps level army HQ
but there is close to 70 units total and almost 40 of them are big inf units

is there any diffrence how mnay units get nonus from 1 HQ ????

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Sneer

nice test
but ...
i have 10 diffrent hqs at chungking - to give support  - 6 of them are corps level army HQ
but there is close to 70 units total and almost 40 of them are big inf units

is there any diffrence how mnay units get nonus from 1 HQ ????

Haven't tested that. Perhaps there are stacking limits afterall...

[treespider]

Next test - Corps HQ 1 hex away, 4000 supply with Div, 0 supply in kaifeng -

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 220

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 52

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
130 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
45 casualties reported
Guns lost 5


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

[treespider]

Placed Corps HQ back into hex - Same parameters as my second test - Must have gotten a good die roll the first time i ran this attack as here is the second time:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 198

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 55

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
178 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
39 casualties reported
Guns lost 2


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!


Notice Assault value of 198 this time whereas the first time I ran this test with the corps HQ present i had a modified Assault value of 390

[treespider]

Just ran the test twice again with supply set at 1700 for the division -

In both instances the japanese modified Assault value was over 400 ....402 and 415 to be specific.....hmmm[&:]

[treespider]

Next test -Removed corps HQ, Placed command HQ 2 hexes away, div supply 3100

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 305

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 35

Japanese assault odds: 8 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
275 casualties reported
Guns lost 11
Vehicles lost 2

Allied ground losses:
290 casualties reported
Guns lost 11


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!



Modded assault value 305....next i will put the corps hq back into place

[treespider]

Next test - Corps HQ present, command HQ in Range, Div supply 3100....me thinks its TOO random...
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/07/41


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 301
Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 39

Japanese assault odds: 7 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
286 casualties reported
Guns lost 14
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
186 casualties reported
Guns lost 9


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

So in this scenario the japanese player has theoretically maximized his potential - short of replacing leaders. The Japanese have a corps HQ and a Command HQ - yet we see no appreciable difference in their assault value.

[treespider]

In this test I gave the chinese unit 1000 supply, otherwise the parameters same as previous test -

Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 304

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 202

Japanese assault odds: 1 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
299 casualties reported
Guns lost 9
Vehicles lost 2

Allied ground losses:
6 casualties reported


What is interesting here is that even though the chinese are supplied Japanese losses are not much different. Whereas chinese losses are signficantly less...

[treespider]

Does fatigue even play a factor????

For this test I removed the Chinese supply.

The Japanese have a Corps HQ and a Command HQ and 3100 supply...I also set there fatigue to 65 in previous test it was 5....check out the Modified Assault Value this time....fatigue must only impact movement.
Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 530 - adjusted assault: 453

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 37

Japanese assault odds: 12 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
129 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
272 casualties reported
Guns lost 17


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

[treespider]

Ran three more runs of the basic test -

No HQ's, Japanese supply 3100 (more than 2x), Chinese supply - 0, Jap & Chin Fatigue set at 5-

Modified Japanese assault values - 200, 114, 192


Here is the last combat -

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 506 - adjusted assault: 192

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 59

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
159 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

Allied ground losses:
24 casualties reported


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

[treespider]

Now here is one of the more interesting tests to date and it seems to confirm that supply is pushed prior to combat!!!

I gave the Japanese 1527 supply points , one LESS than required. I put 20,000 supply in Kaifeng with a japanese Division as Garrison and well you decide what happened...

Please comments are more than welcome!!!!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 12/07/41


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at 49,31

Japanese Deliberate attack

Attacking force 25489 troops, 256 guns, 7 vehicles, Assault Value = 482

Defending force 13210 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 335

Japanese max assault: 506 - adjusted assault: 223

Allied max defense: 351 - adjusted defense: 49

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
95 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 1

Allied ground losses:
116 casualties reported
Guns lost 5


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!