Rise of the Sheep! JocMeister(A) vs. Obvert(J)

[House Stark]

Joc, you said earlier that you were withdrawing your subs back to port. Do you mean all subs, or just those that were convoy hunting? I'm getting the feeling reading your AAR and others that against an opponent who puts a lot of resources into ASW, the only real way the Allies can use subs is the way the Japanese used them historically. Super E's and ASW aircraft become a lot less valuable when subs are partially under the umbrella of the US CV force.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP
Joc: I am always late to posting here.  How were your P40 fighters layered in Burma.  Also whats the exp.  I am a few months behind you so I'm trying to pick up a few pointers here.  I have only faced Georgers and I had Corsairs with them.

I had them layered at 15k and 20k. All pilots were properly trained but not stellar. So 50-60 EXP, 70 Air, 70 Defense. Against massed Franks they are simply dead meat even when in numbers of 200.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
Is this wise?

Semi wise. [:D] I´m going to need blast Wake for 1-2 weeks before actually landing. I have a second wave ready at Midway but they are low prep (60-70) so I don´t want to use them if I don´t have to!

ORIGINAL: House Stark

Joc, you said earlier that you were withdrawing your subs back to port. Do you mean all subs, or just those that were convoy hunting? I'm getting the feeling reading your AAR and others that against an opponent who puts a lot of resources into ASW, the only real way the Allies can use subs is the way the Japanese used them historically. Super E's and ASW aircraft become a lot less valuable when subs are partially under the umbrella of the US CV force.

Only those on convoy hunting. I will use them as you are suggesting. Raider and GJ seems to have perfected this use and I will give it a try!

I think its a shame the game fails to model the strategic sub campaign in the game. After all it could be argued this was the most important aspect of the Pacific war. To be honest the whole sub/ASW war is kind of bonkers. Air ASW is insanely overpowered. Even having air search radar my subs get hit instantly. Not after a few weeks in the area but instantly. And on those rare occasions were my subs shoot at something (1-2 times per week) they target the escort about 80% of the time.

[DOCUP]

So what alt are the Frank's and Georges sweeping at?

[koniu]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

So what alt are the Frank's and Georges sweeping at?

George(all variants) and Frank a/b have 2nd best maneuverability at 31k ft. Frank "r" can sweep at his max celling ~40-44k ft(not remember)

Are You playing with 2nd band rule, JocMeister?

[DOCUP]

Hey Joc pump some info out of Koniu for me. How many Georges and where his CVs are located. Keep it on the download though.
[:D]

Man I should be working right now.

[JocMeister]

konui,

Yes we are using the 2nd best MVR HR. So he goes in a 31k and my P40s are stuck at 20k. Its a really crappy HR that has pretty much ruined the air war for us both. The only thing that matters is going higher then your opponent. Dive is insanely powerful and I think its why we often see extreme number like 1:10 losses and stuff. If you are using that HR I strongly suggest you come up with something else.

In my other game we don´t have a HR but we will keep it realistic (no higher then 20k for now.). I think this will make a better experience for both players.

DOCUP,

Georges arn´t much of a problem vs your fighters. Its the unescorted bombers you need to worry about. A good rule of thumb for me so far is:
One lost 4E for every airborne George when unescorted. So 50 Georges means 50 4Es lost after OP losses. I don´t do unescorted anymore. [:(]

[DOCUP]

Can you put some corsair or p47s at 31k with p40s at lower alt as bait. Instead of having all one type mix it up. That's what I have done with koniu. In Burma I have hurri 2c at 31k with p40s and p39s at lower alts. It has worked well for me. I like to have 2 sqds at 31k if I can.

[koniu]

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Can you put some corsair or p47s at 31k with p40s at lower alt as bait. Instead of having all one type mix it up. That's what I have done with koniu. In Burma I have hurri 2c at 31k with p40s and p39s at lower alts. It has worked well for me. I like to have 2 sqds at 31k if I can.

Confirm that. Usually when i sweeping my fighters are diving on low flying fighters as prababaly pilots consider them easy targets. After few rounds F4U or other high flying planes coming to game and they start to dive on me. And when F4U is diving there is only one end fo my planes.

Also allied radar warning is playing major role. In last few sweeps when I engage enemy planes manage to climb above my sweep usually 33-35k ft and they instanly start to dive on me

[JocMeister]

Ah, I had a nice layered CAP in place. Here is the CR.

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 16 20k
Spitfire VIII x 48 31k
P-40K Warhawk x 148 15k
P-40N5 Warhawk x 100 20k
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 49 35k
P-51A Mustang x 25 25k

I think the air model just collapses when numbers are too big. Don´t know.

[JocMeister]

I think I just found the reason I did so poorly that day. Have to double check but I might be an idiot. [:@]

[JocMeister]

Henceforth I shall be known as an Idiot...

When I dug up the CR to show my CAP I found something very telling.

Morning Air attack on Akyab , at 54,45

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 17 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes <-- Wth? [X(]

Japanese aircraft
N1K2-J George x 30



Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 16
Spitfire VIII x 48
P-40K Warhawk x 148
P-40N5 Warhawk x 100
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 49
P-51A Mustang x 25


Japanese aircraft losses
N1K2-J George: 5 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Spitfire Vc Trop: 1 destroyed
P-40K Warhawk: 3 destroyed
P-40N5 Warhawk: 1 destroyed

So I dug up an old save from just 3 turns prior. Sure enough the base doesn´t have radar. The RAF BF I left there for the sole purpose of providing radar had replacements turned "OFF". [:@] So it never upgrades its TOE hence no radar.

Gah, I´m an idiot. That explains the appalling performance. I´m not ready to apologize to the P40s just yet though. But it was a stupid, stupid mistake. I can only hope it will pay back sometime when Erik tried again. With radar it will probably look a bit different!

[ny59giants]

Dear Village Idiot, [;)] [:D]

I'm almost religious in my focus on doing device upgrades all over the map. When it comes to India/Burma theater, I think of our correspondence on the issue of upgrading to the '43 squads many months ago. Those little "=" signs mean you can do so. Do to some errors on my part, I'm now starting my orders by doing India/Burma first rather than last. Usually I start at Pearl and after a brief stop in USA, I work my way west.

It is the oversights with some pain involved that get us to learn in AE.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Dear Village Idiot, [;)] [:D]

I'm almost religious in my focus on doing device upgrades all over the map. When it comes to India/Burma theater, I think of our correspondence on the issue of upgrading to the '43 squads many months ago. Those little "=" signs mean you can do so. Do to some errors on my part, I'm now starting my orders by doing India/Burma first rather than last. Usually I start at Pearl and after a brief stop in USA, I work my way west.

It is the oversights with some pain involved that get us to learn in AE.

Yes, indeed the village idiot! [:D]

I turned off the upgrade because the same upgrade contained the Lewis to Bren upgrade. I was desperate for Brens to be able to combine 3 Chinese divisions to a Corps (1 division had already upgraded) so I turned it off. And of course then forgot all about it. Stuuuupid!

[ny59giants]

I leaned to use the "Stockpile" option for devices better a while back when I had a Chinese Corp in India filling out her TO&E. I had divided the Corp and the MMG went to just part of the Corp. It took months before i had enough for the other two parts. The 'fun' part of this game is the learning never stops.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I leaned to use the "Stockpile" option for devices better a while back when I had a Chinese Corp in India filling out her TO&E. I had divided the Corp and the MMG went to just part of the Corp. It took months before i had enough for the other two parts. The 'fun' part of this game is the learning never stops.

That is exactly what happened to me. Only enough Brens for 1/3rd. So I then turned on stockpile. Waited forever for the Brens to fill up. Turned off stockpile and the pool emptied but still no upgrade. Turns out the Brens are shared with the Ozzies....[8|] Another 4 months of waiting.

Pretty annoying! [:D]

[JocMeister]

13th-16th April -44

Not much happening besides the Wake assault.

Wake

First bombardment goes in and pops instead of going boom. [:(]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 15, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Wake Island at 136,98 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

52 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB Queen Elizabeth
BB Valiant, Shell hits 1
BB Mississippi, Shell hits 1
BB Idaho
BB California
BB Nevada
BC Renown

Japanese ground losses:
86 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 17 (7 destroyed, 10 disabled)



Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 14
Port hits 7

Never seen such a poor result. I messed up with the night recon though so that might explain some. But this probably means Erik has some massive forts in place. Probably 7-9. This is going to take a while. I´ll try from the air tomorrow. I´m only using the CVEs for strike missions. I hope to appear weaker then I am and lure Erik to battle. As seen in the screenshot KB is on the move. He moved the KB the turn before my Wake bombardment though. So he might turn back now that he knows the Marianas isn´t the target. I´ll hopefully know tomorrow.

Burma
Well, the Akyab debacle is explained at least. When the air base is repaired I´ll move in again. Hopefully this has made Erik cocky and he impales himself. An unescorted strike go in on the 14th probably because sweeps rained in. Almost 70 Betties and Frances are shot down. Ha!

Erik reinforced the stack close to Mandalay in the nick of time. Crap.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at 60,47 (near Mandalay)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 35595 troops, 528 guns, 230 vehicles, Assault Value = 1308

Defending force 17325 troops, 186 guns, 274 vehicles, Assault Value = 488

Allied adjusted assault: 492

Japanese adjusted defense: 937

Allied assault odds: 1 to 2

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), disruption(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
503 casualties reported
Squads: 15 destroyed, 13 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Vehicles lost 24 (2 destroyed, 22 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
506 casualties reported
Squads: 4 destroyed, 195 disabled
Non Combat: 2 destroyed, 23 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 16 disabled
Guns lost 34 (6 destroyed, 28 disabled)
Vehicles lost 19 (8 destroyed, 11 disabled)


Assaulting units:
11th (East African) Division
641st Towed Tank Destroyer Battalion
50th Indian Para Brigade
3rd New Chinese Corps
85th British AT Gun Regiment

Defending units:
4th Ind.Mixed Regiment
8th Tank Regiment
39th/A Division
2nd RTA Division
39th/C Division
2nd Army
1st Hvy.Artillery Regiment
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment

I´ll have to bring more in... and continue bombing.

OZ and New Guinea

First combat ships are repaired. With the KB out of position I´ll try to bring supplies in to Darwin.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

13th-16th April -44

Not much happening besides the Wake assault.

Wake

First bombardment goes in and pops instead of going boom. [:(]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 15, 44
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Naval bombardment of Wake Island at 136,98 - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

52 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
BB Queen Elizabeth
BB Valiant, Shell hits 1
BB Mississippi, Shell hits 1
BB Idaho
BB California
BB Nevada
BC Renown

Japanese ground losses:
86 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 18 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 17 (7 destroyed, 10 disabled)



Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 14
Port hits 7

Never seen such a poor result. I messed up with the night recon though so that might explain some. But this probably means Erik has some massive forts in place. Probably 7-9. This is going to take a while. I´ll try from the air tomorrow. I´m only using the CVEs for strike missions. I hope to appear weaker then I am and lure Erik to battle. As seen in the screenshot KB is on the move. He moved the KB the turn before my Wake bombardment though. So he might turn back now that he knows the Marianas isn´t the target. I´ll hopefully know tomorrow.

Trying to look on the bright side:

A couple of those BBs are ready for the breakers more or less. No Iowa-class to be sure.

Recon can add to results a great deal. I used to be a non-believer on this, but I am now. DL rules. You can't get it all done in one night either.

You say there are 5000 men on Wake. Probably about right. The results above are useful with this in mind. How likely is it that non-combat took 100% of the damage? It can happen, but is it likely? With that many BBs? Maybe there ARE no combat troops on the island. If he has a CD unit and a base force that's pretty close to 5000 when you add Support.

If he's had Wake for years I agree with your Forts estimate. But if there are no combat LCUs on the island Forts can be dealt with.

Don't get discouraged. Collect more info, continue to prep the island. It may be less than it seems after this turn.

[JocMeister]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

Trying to look on the bright side:

A couple of those BBs are ready for the breakers more or less. No Iowa-class to be sure.

Recon can add to results a great deal. I used to be a non-believer on this, but I am now. DL rules. You can't get it all done in one night either.

You say there are 5000 men on Wake. Probably about right. The results above are useful with this in mind. How likely is it that non-combat took 100% of the damage? It can happen, but is it likely? With that many BBs? Maybe there ARE no combat troops on the island. If he has a CD unit and a base force that's pretty close to 5000 when you add Support.

If he's had Wake for years I agree with your Forts estimate. But if there are no combat LCUs on the island Forts can be dealt with.

Don't get discouraged. Collect more info, continue to prep the island. It may be less than it seems after this turn.

Oh how I wish you had been right! [:D]

Morning Air attack on Wake Coastal Gun Battalion, at 136,98 (Wake Island)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 38 minutes


Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 245
SBD-5 Dauntless x 52
TBF-1 Avenger x 137


Allied aircraft losses
SBD-5 Dauntless: 1 damaged
TBF-1 Avenger: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
30 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 13 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (1 destroyed, 2 disabled)

Also attacking 64th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 8th Recon Regiment ...
Also attacking Wake Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 64th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 8th Recon Regiment ...
Also attacking Wake Coastal Gun Battalion ...
Also attacking 64th Naval Guard Unit ...
Also attacking 8th Recon Regiment ...
Also attacking Wake Coastal Gun Battalion ...

Again no hits on the combat troops and only 30 casualties! [X(] This is going to be a tough cookie. Might even be forced to bypass this. I have no combat engineers prepped for Wake at all as they are all prepping for Eniwetok and targets in the Marianas. I´ll keep at it for a while more. Losses might pick up once all the supply is burnt up. Never seen casualties this low. Many forts!

I´ll do as you says and try and look at it from the bright side. Wake isn´t really needed. Eniwetok is though. Interesting to see if Erik comes out and play. Lost sight KB this turn so no clue if he turned back or not.

I hope he comes to play. I want this over with one way or the other. Hopefully he believes my small strike package is all I have and comes barging in looking for easy kills. So far he has never shied down from a possible CV clash. If he goes full speed he could arrive in two days. Four days is more likely as he wouldn´t run full speed and need to top off fuel.

I have my "pilot rescue ships" out! They have a gun, DC bombs and 3500 Endurance so it should satisfy Eriks own classification.

All of the small PB classes of ship can be converted into many types with virtually the same armament and capabilities. This ship is being used because it's a combat ship, not a merchant, and because it has a long enough range to be able to stay out there for a while. This is the type of ship the US found off of Japan during the Doolittle attack. Several were sunk by surface vessels. So what I'm doing here has an exact historical relevance, even down to ship type.

[ny59giants]

Jocke - Doing my orders now. Guess who is going through all his BFs in India/Burma to make sure they have the latest radar?? [:D]

[Uncivil Engineer]

Do you have some of the search planes on those battlewagons flying NIGHT missions? If not, that should improve results.