The Italian Job 2- Gen.Hoepner(J)-vs.-Mc3744

[Gen.Hoepner]

I agreed with MC that only CVEs will be using "strange" fighters ( Corsairs and Jacks) so not to completely screw history

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/03/43

So finally i was right....but he invaded the place just 6 months later than expected and with a normal Transport TF and not a FTtf....[:(]

My timing for the evacuation was right however...all my units are safe[:D]

The base will fall at first attempt


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TF 1048 encounters mine field at Port Blair (23,34)


Allied Ships
MSW Maryborough
MSW Goulburn
MSW Patna
PG Jasmine

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TF 1048 encounters mine field at Port Blair (23,34)

TF 1048 troops unloading over beach at Port Blair, 23,34


Allied Ships
MSW Maryborough
MSW Goulburn
MSW Patna
PG Jasmine, Mine hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Meigs, Mine hits 1


Allied ground losses:
29 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


Allied ground losses:
243 casualties reported

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/04/43

Port Blair fell as predicted with no opposition. 3 allied ships hit mines[:D]
Each day 400 heavy bombers are pouning Bankok, which is now nothing but a smoking hole in the Indochina ground.
He started to bomb with 4Es Exmouth. That can mean he will chose the external way to get in into my perimeter...well...if it is so: the better! More time gained!!

400 Transport ships are ready at Darwin for the evacuation of Northern Oz....it will be damned risky!
I'll try to hold there as long as i can but if he invades Exmouth i'll have to speed it up the runaway....

The first 9 Jacks arrived today at Hanoi[8D]

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TF 1048 encounters mine field at Port Blair (23,34)

TF 1048 troops unloading over beach at Port Blair, 23,34


Allied Ships
MSW Maryborough
MSW Goulburn
MSW Patna


Allied ground losses:
202 casualties reported

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Ground combat at Port Blair

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 6320 troops, 63 guns, 0 vehicles

Defending force 1142 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 18 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Port Blair base !!!


Japanese ground losses:
47 casualties reported

[String]

ORIGINAL: pauk

ORIGINAL: String

hmh, B-17's were used historically at high enough altitude that zeroes couldn't intercept them, so i think that calling that gamey is pushing it.

no offense, i did not call it gamey. IMO, air combat, as AmiralLaurent stated isn't perfectly modeled and it is a really hard to arrange balanced play trough house rules (i guess that would require at least 50 parahraphs

Personally, I have my own personal house rules which i don't announce publicly (same is with ground and naval warfare) - no overstacking air units on AFs (max allowed planes are based on airfield size) and not training my air units attacking empty bases....

The problem is that B17 is overpowered (there are too many of them in the game, bombing results are overrated - even from 36.000 feet, repair rate is too fast...etc) and IMHO i think there is no need for using them in that way. But this is not a place to discuss about that..... so arguing with historical arguments in not-historical represented air warfare is not a winner...

Ok, i can live with that and i accept it 100%, but if this happens my opponents should be aware that i will use Zekes for kamikazes at same attitude - above max ceiling of allied planes....

If i thought that was gamey i would ask you to stop this or cancel our game.

It was just bad joke[:)], i think.

The difference is that a divebombing zeke used from max altitude IS gamey, as it could and would have been intercepted by fighters.That or it would have disintegrated in mid air from too high speeds. And I don't remember doing any real damage with b-17s by flying at 36k feet, the worst being 1-2 airplanes destroyed, more usually, nothing

[AmiralLaurent]

Agree with String, level bombers or recon flying at high alt are ok with me as they will do all their flight from this alt (and they historically did that), but setting the altitude of dive bombers, torpedo bomber or fighter-bombers at 30 000+ is gamey because they are so immune to most CAP and AA fire, then teleport at 2000 or 200 feet and drop their ordnance. The problem is the teleportation.

As for being fair, well, strategy consists in using everything possible advantage to win an unfair advantage over the enemy. Using BB to sink AP, or Zeroes to chase Wirraways isn't fair either. The problem here is that is not a war, but a game, and if the simulation is faulty, players may (should?) agree to use home rules to keep the game as a reasonable simulation. There is no cheating in a real war, but there may be in a game.

[pauk]

grrrr... i knew it i will be involved into debate.

Ok, it may be a valid point about zeke's - did not know that they are immune for AA fire too...I must admit that this change my attidude.

(as i would like to hear from community the same for other "solutions": it took me some time that i realise that if you put DD in PT TF this will turn PTs in "magnet" for LB bombers and they will attack this small, speedy crafts (with torps!) instead "normal" warships...)

The bottom line is that i'm very, very nervous when we are talking about B17, especially when players evacuating cadres of the base forces from DEI and PI (yes, they need them for hordes of B-17s). I know that Allied community agree that this is not a gamey, so i would not say a word on that issue....

However this is not a place to discuss (again) about that and lets continue to enjoy this game.

[String]

ORIGINAL: pauk

grrrr... i knew it i will be involved into debate.

Ok, it may be a valid point about zeke's - did not know that they are immune for AA fire too...I must admit that this change my attidude.

(as i would like to hear from community the same for other "solutions": it took me some time that i realise that if you put DD in PT TF this will turn PTs in "magnet" for LB bombers and they will attack this small, speedy crafts (with torps!) instead "normal" warships...)

The bottom line is that i'm very, very nervous when we are talking about B17, especially when players evacuating cadres of the base forces from DEI and PI (yes, they need them for hordes of B-17s). I know that Allied community agree that this is not a gamey, so i would not say a word on that issue....

However this is not a place to discuss (again) about that and lets continue to enjoy this game.

I don't evac cadres of base forces, though i did for a few land units from malaya.
I did take out all the av support guys from the philippine aviation unit, but that can hardly be called pulling out a cadre now can it?

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/08/43

After Port Blair, Tavoy has fallen in enemy's hands. Soon Malaya will be attacked and Indochina too.

At PM started the b-17 carpet bombing.
Actually there are some 800 4Es used in daily actions . Targets are Bankok, Daily Waters,Exmouth and now Port Moresby.

In one month we should be able to launch the first attack at Lanchow

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/09/43

So I wasn't that far from reality of facts. I just misunderstood the PM bombings, but the intense activity of the last days over Daily and Exmouth had almost revealed his plans: HE's GOING FOR AUSTRALIA!

Today he's landed at Broome and Exmouth, covered by a strong Surface TF and by a Carrier force. There's a base force at Broome and a SNLF at Exmouth. Tomorrow they'll fall.
So now everything will be decided: Will the Japanese manage to make another Dunkerke? Will USAFF will be as lazy as Luftwaffe? Will MC be better than Uncle Hermann?[:D][:D]
My units at Daily are already running towards Darwin. Soon Broome and Daily will be full of enemy bombers and fighters...i can foresee the disaster[:)].
Fighters and bombers have been transfered to Darwin and Ambonia. Let's see if he becomes too overconfident but knowing him i don't think so.

At the same time the ESSEX CV, along with other unidentified 50 ships is heading towards Lunga. Here the evacuation has already been completed. No need to hurry[:'(]


Soon the allies will start bombing resources centers in DEI-SRA...i thank god i've decided to retire...if not now i'd have to engage with my wounded KB...which simply won't be able to stop the allied Steamroller

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TF 1042 encounters mine field at Broome (22,85)

Allied Ships
MSW Abraham Crijnssen
MSW Pieter de Bitter
MSW Igonish
MSW Horsham
MSW Bunbury
PC Tiger
PG Swan
AK John C. Calhoun, Mine hits 1


Allied ground losses:
18 casualties reported

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TF 1067 encounters mine field at Broome (22,85)

Allied Ships
MSW Heed
MSW Starling
MSW Gympie
MSW Cowra
DMS Boggs
PG Isabel
PG Yarra

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Naval bombardment of Broome, at 22,85

Allied Ships
CL Phoenix
CL Newcastle
CL Glasgow
CL Danae
CA Cornwall
CA Vincennes
CA Quincy
CA San Francisco
CA Chester
BB Washington
BB Oklahoma

Japanese ground losses:
19 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 22
Port hits 7
Port supply hits 15

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TF 1042 encounters mine field at Broome (22,85)

TF 1042 troops unloading over beach at Broome, 22,85


Allied Ships
MSW Abraham Crijnssen
MSW Pieter de Bitter
MSW Igonish
MSW Horsham
MSW Bunbury
PC Tiger
PG Swan
APD Waters
AK Dukat, Mine hits 1


Allied ground losses:
12 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1


Allied ground losses:
237 casualties reported

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TF 1072 encounters mine field at Exmouth (11,86)

TF 1072 troops unloading over beach at Exmouth, 11,86


Allied Ships
MSW Eland Dubois
MSW Jan van Amstel
MSW Robin
MSW Lismore
MSW Katoomba
MSW Gladstone
MSW Cessnock


Allied ground losses:
225 casualties reported

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TF 1042 troops unloading over beach at Broome, 22,85



Allied ground losses:
294 casualties reported

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TF 1063 troops unloading over beach at Broome, 22,85



Allied ground losses:
52 casualties reported

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TF 1067 troops unloading over beach at Broome, 22,85



Allied ground losses:
244 casualties reported

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TF 1072 encounters mine field at Exmouth (11,86)

TF 1072 troops unloading over beach at Exmouth, 11,86


Allied Ships
MSW Eland Dubois
MSW Jan van Amstel
MSW Robin
MSW Lismore
MSW Katoomba
MSW Gladstone
MSW Cessnock


Allied ground losses:
234 casualties reported

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Naval bombardment of Broome, at 22,85

Allied Ships
CL Phoenix
CL Newcastle
CL Glasgow
CL Danae
CA Cornwall
CA Vincennes
CA Quincy
CA San Francisco
CA Chester
BB Washington
BB Oklahoma

Japanese ground losses:
8 casualties reported

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 13
Port hits 1
Port supply hits 11


-

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/10/43

He landed in Broome with 3 divisions, tons of Engeneers, Aviation units, seabees...tanks....Useless to say that my base force there was pushed out easily.

Same for Exmouth.

He landed also at Lunga. 22,000 enemies already ashore.

The long run for Darwin has started. I'm quite sure i'm gonne lose my divisions there...[:(]

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/11/43

Febbruary 1943.
The tide is rising. The whole japanese defensive perimeter is collapsying very fast.
Lunga has been conquered. Despite i've been laying mines for 11 months, not a single hit nor a mine detected by the hundreds allied ships at Guadalacanal...strange[&:].
Broome and Exmouth are already full of planes, ships and men.
The 14th Army is running away from Daily waters. Only a bunch of volounteers of the 18th Mixed Bde ( May God of War bless them all) decided to stay at Daily and delay the allied advance, so covering for what is possible the retreat of their brothers in arms.
It will be a bloody escape. I know. Darwin will soon be attacked by hundreds of allied bombers...it's gonna be a disaster.

The allies keep advancing southwards from Burma. Soon Sumatra and Malaya will be attacked and conquered.

The Solomons, New Guinea and the Marshalls will surely be the next targets.

The Judgment day is getting closer.





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Ground combat at Lunga

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 10049 troops, 232 guns, 16 vehicles

Defending force 574 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles

Allied assault odds: 16 to 1 (fort level 0)

Allied forces CAPTURE Lunga base !!!


Japanese ground losses:
99 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
31 casualties reported
Guns lost 2


Defeated Japanese Units Retreating!

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/19/43

One week has passed by. We managed to evacuate, under an umbrella of 300 fighters, 3 Japanese Divisions, 1 HQ, 2 base forces, 3 tank regiments and 4 Artillery units from Darwin...despite Broome is already AF 6 he didn't dare to oppose my retreat[:D].
The Japanese Dunkerque has been a success! I even managed to evacuate 80,000 supplies from Darwin[:'(]
Today Daily Waters fell. Now the volounteers are marching towards Darwin...i'll try to save their lifes, cause their sacrifice has allowed almos 100,000 japanese men to retreat in order so to be able to fight another day!

Tavoy and Victoria Point fell.
Bankok is burning.
Next allied step in the area will probably be Sebang.

We're almost ready to launch the attack at Lanchow[:)]

[Gen.Hoepner]

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 02/21/43

He came with a twin air strike over Darwin from Daily waters and Broome.
A total of 400 4Es....i had my crack pilots defending Darwin's skies....shot down the whole escort ( p-38s) and a HUGE number of bombers...but simply they were too many[:(].
Despite a great fight....almost 200 planes are burning on the ground and Darwin AF is closed forever[:(]....
Is there a way to keep an AF open when attacked by those monsters?!?...i don't think so...



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Day Air attack on Darwin , at 36,84

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13
A6M3 Zero x 35
A6M3a Zero x 17
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 31
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 18

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 38
B-17E Fortress x 48
B-24D Liberator x 220

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged
A6M3 Zero: 22 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 9 destroyed
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 17 destroyed
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 6 destroyed, 6 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 20 destroyed
G3M Nell: 8 destroyed
H8K Emily: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38G Lightning: 23 destroyed
B-17E Fortress: 4 destroyed, 19 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 37 destroyed, 83 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
18 casualties reported

Airbase hits 30
Airbase supply hits 11
Runway hits 152

Aircraft Attacking:
All bombers bombing at 6000 feet
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Day Air attack on Darwin , at 36,84

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6
A6M3 Zero x 13
A6M3a Zero x 7
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 11
Ki-61 KAIc Tony x 8

Allied aircraft
F-5A Lightning x 4
PB4Y Liberator x 27
B-24D Liberator x 62

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M3 Zero: 3 destroyed, 5 damaged
A6M3a Zero: 2 damaged
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-61 KAIc Tony: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
Ki-21 Sally: 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
PB4Y Liberator: 3 destroyed, 7 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 12 destroyed, 20 damaged

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 102

[Gen.Hoepner]

....

[06 Maestro]

As a fan of the northern OZ invasion (no where near playing that far-yet) I’m curious as to what caused the collapse of your position there. Was supply a critical factor, or was the IJF’s just overwhelmed by Allied ground and air forces?

In view of the inability to hold the area; does it make any sense to invade in the first place? I had always thought that the Japanese should have taken any base near the SRA as a safeguard against the destruction of their merchant marine, but if turns into a disaster trying to get out; perhaps it’s not worth it.

Anyway, very interesting alternative campaign-good luck.

[Ron Saueracker]

Just for reference sake, can you guys comment on your resource/oil/supply/fuel situations? The CHS has reduced this but we were just discussing if it was anywhere near enough. Comments would be great.

Thanks,

Ron

[Tom Hunter]

Hoepner,

Why not send more escorts, that is only about 70 planes. I have more than double that over Noumea right now (playing Allied I admit) and Mogami flies more than twice that number of planes over his important bases as well.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

As a fan of the northern OZ invasion (no where near playing that far-yet) I’m curious as to what caused the collapse of your position there. Was supply a critical factor, or was the IJF’s just overwhelmed by Allied ground and air forces?

In view of the inability to hold the area; does it make any sense to invade in the first place? I had always thought that the Japanese should have taken any base near the SRA as a safeguard against the destruction of their merchant marine, but if turns into a disaster trying to get out; perhaps it’s not worth it.

Anyway, very interesting alternative campaign-good luck.

Supply has never been an issue for Northern Oz in this campaign. I've always had more than 150,000 supplies stocked at Darwin, since the first day.
The general retreat has been decided because it was simply impossible to mantain any kind of local superiority anywhere. My Navy can stand the fight. My Army can stand the fight. My Air force, altough it's modern and higly experienced ( consider that the fighter group with less exp is at 74!!), cannot even dare to compete with more than 1500 heavy 4 engines allied bombers. Simply no way.
The problem was that i could not defend such a great perimeter with so few fighters against every possible target for his 4Es. Consider thatevery base he choses to attack can last one turn.2 at best. he sends 400 4Es the first turn. I can muster how many? 100? 200? let's say 200 very exp fighters ( so to say more 100 are grounded). THe A2A ratio is something like 3-1,4-1 in my favour...good....he manages however to get 200 bombers through my CAP and it the AF...more 100 of my planes are destroyed on the ground and the strip is a burning hole...the next day he has more 300 fresh 4Es to send in. Everything destroyed. Fighter groups annihilated and base closed. Simple and sound[:(]

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Just for reference sake, can you guys comment on your resource/oil/supply/fuel situations? The CHS has reduced this but we were just discussing if it was anywhere near enough. Comments would be great.

Thanks,

Ron

No problem with oil. 1,700,000 stocked. Lots of problems with resources. Despite all my resources centers are undamaged i've already had to shut down my HI for few days in late 42 because of the lack of res. now i barely have 1 million stocked, but i have already shut down most of my Naval and Merchant ship yards, some armament factories and some vehicles ones.
In the next months, with the allies bombing the hell out of my SRA-DEI res centers, i'll have to stop almost everything except probably the plane industry.
The real issue are the resources...they are never enough.

[Gen.Hoepner]

ORIGINAL: Tom Hunter

Hoepner,

Why not send more escorts, that is only about 70 planes. I have more than double that over Noumea right now (playing Allied I admit) and Mogami flies more than twice that number of planes over his important bases as well.

Tom,
he has a strong CV force very close to Darwin ( he's at Derby right now). I had 5 Betty Daitais and some 3 Sally Sentais at Darwin. Those bombers' role was to protect the retreat route of my 14th Army loaded on 200 AP/AKs...if he had managed to get his CVs somewhere close to my transports....well...it would have been a disaster!. That's why i had to keep some of my fighters on escort ( i had something like 200 fighters at Darwin, every group was set to 60% CAP)...then Darwin was overstaked....so probably i had a penalty of 25%-50% CAp reduction....

We'll soon see a reply of this situation at Hanoi. I have placed 350 fighters there( the real BULK of my IJAF-IJN air force!).....every group at 90% CAP...let's see how much does Hanoi AF last....i bet nothing more than 2 combat days....