Never Thought I'd Start Another One - tc464 (A) vs. Mike (J)

[Mike Solli]

Hey Pax, can you give me some info on how to set up the layered CAP defense? I have no idea how to do it. What we both have been doing is setting CAP pretty much at our max height to get the dive on the other. I know there's a better way to do it but haven't a clue.

[RangerJoe]

Remember that CAP will fly UP to engage bombers but if the sweepers fly too high that they won't engage the CAP. So Oscars at 2k with other fighters at 5k and 7k might work. But others probably have better ideas.

One very important item is to have RADAR, more than one if at all possible, so you can detect the incoming raids and then the fighters will have more time to get into position to engage the bombers.

[PaxMondo]

Hey Pax, can you give me some info on how to set up the layered CAP defense? I have no idea how to do it. What we both have been doing is setting CAP pretty much at our max height to get the dive on the other. I know there's a better way to do it but haven't a clue.

Let me find the link to obvert/lowpe AAR. He goes into GREAT detail exactly how/why to do it. They were/are the masters of this and the original creators with all the refinements. There are a LOT of subtleties and he explains it all ....

[sfatula]

There was a long discussion between them and others here:

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=295215

[PaxMondo]

There was a long discussion between them and others here:

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopic.php?t=295215

This was the initial development thread, a VERY good read. But the one I am looking for was a few years later, in an AAR from obvert/lowpe played a game against each other and by that time they had the wrinkles all ironed out. About mid-game obvert gave several specific examples of what his CAP looked like against Lowpe's attacks and Lowpe shared how he was attacking knowing the likely CAP layers. It was a great exchange and really showed:
1. Both players were genius at the air war, they had really figured it out.
2. The ACM (Air Combat Model) in this game is one of the most robust, accurate, and amazing pieces of modelling that has ever been done. From some other discussions I know a lot more about the who and the how it was developed; the fact that it was a TON of hard work to pull off (cannot over emphasize how much work, how many hours, panic, depression, frustration, ...). But, bottom line, the team did pull it off and there isn't another ACM model out there in a strategic game that even comes close. What sets it apart from all the others is that all of these tactics were/are real life tactics. CAP was layered. Bounce was a big deal*. All the things that were really important then are important in the game and a player can actually adjust his attack/defense to take advantage of them.

Can you play the AI and ignore them? Actually, playing against the AI you want to ignore them as it gives you too great an advantage otherwise. In a PBEM, ignore them at your peril. If your opponent uses them, your air force will be decimated.

ALL HAIL THE HENDERSON DEV'S !!!!!!!!!




*A lot of sources here, my first one and still all-time fav is:
God Is My Co-Pilot by Gen. Robert Lee Scott Jr., USAF (ret)

[sfatula]

Ah, ok. I have not seen the followup one then. I will look for it one day soon. I'll post a link when I find it. Yes, the one I linked had a few conclusions but it was mostly testing. The numbers in the thread I linked quite clearly showed how much better it was. It is a good read to convince you you need to do this!

I've read a lot of Lowpe AARs but never encountered the discussions so will use my search skills to find it if I can. I can only guess it's somewhere in "Beans Bullets and Black Oil" but I have been unsuccessful there.

I agree, the modeling is incredible. Not a simplistic I have x planes of x type, you have so many planes, add a little fudge factor and that's it like many games. Every little bit helps for sure, but the layered helps a lot! I based my layering on the thread I linked unaware there was another later one. Thanks!

[PaxMondo]

I've read a lot of Lowpe AARs but never encountered the discussions so will use my search skills to find it if I can. I can only guess it's somewhere in "Beans Bullets and Black Oil" but I have been unsuccessful there.

i think it was obverts companion AAR, they were playing each other ....

[sfatula]

Beans... is the companion!

Are you sure it isn't the Obvert vs SqzMyLemon as there is a lot of Obvert discussion there?

[PaxMondo]

Beans... is the companion!

Are you sure it isn't the Obvert vs SqzMyLemon as there is a lot of Obvert discussion there?

Maybe? Joseph takes over here in that one:
The Elephant Vanishes : obvert (J) vs Historiker_SqzMyLemon_Canoerebel (A)
https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... 7#p3905597

There is a lot of interesting discussion and MORE testing done here during a break in the AAR due to movement bug. Roughly Pages 64 - 70. Still not the discussion I'm thinking of, but also still a good read.




I just remember it being in one of these two, but my memory is known to be faulty ...

Screenshot 2026-03-24 112035.jpg (48.06 KiB) Viewed 161 times

In memoria ...

Joseph Daniel -SqzMyLemon- Sekida.jpg (41.43 KiB) Viewed 166 times

[PaxMondo]

Hey Pax, can you give me some info on how to set up the layered CAP defense? I have no idea how to do it. What we both have been doing is setting CAP pretty much at our max height to get the dive on the other. I know there's a better way to do it but haven't a clue.

Mike,

I would suggest that you read the many above references for obverts modelling and testing on this. To distill it a bit:
Layered CAP works on the theory that your highest level CAP will evade the bounce, the enemy will continue to bounce down to the next level, where your top level CAP will then get the bounce on them while they are tangling with your mid level CAP. In the meantime, your bottom CAP can climb up into the fray.

These 3 levels of CAP: high, mid, low will be generally manned by different aircraft based upon the appropriate requirements of that level. This means we are talking about mid game or later because early game you have only 2 models AND you never have more than one unit of fighters at a base. It also requires that the opponent be sweeping, and as Japan that means the initiative is, or has, moved over to the allies. Again, generally a mid-game or later situation.

In the examples and discussions you will see that:
N1K is favored as the high CAP. Fast, decent MAN, great guns, good DUR.
Frank is favored as the mid CAP. Fast, good MAN, decent guns
Oscar is favored as the low CAP. great MAN, good Climb.

The discussions in that AAR (obverts Elephant) are early '44, so way, way, way later than you currently are.

The discussion that I am still looking for was about mixing this up, adapting to changes, adapting to allied counter-moves, etc. It was an expert level class in CAP layering. It was interesting because it suggested Oscar IV can be a good top layer (high MAN, Armor), where you would lose a fair number of planes, but not pilots and then Frank -r mid with Jack/Tojo low (both big climbers). Percentages (referring to total numbers of planes) were 30/50/20 top/mid/low, sometimes 30/40/30. Again, always remember these are BIG sweeps and BIG CAPs. 200 - 500 AC were in the testing ....

Hope this answers your question and hope I didn't highjack your thread here ....

[sfatula]

https://forums.matrixgames.com/viewtopi ... d#p4448404

There's a bunch of discussion here as well which is a good read and more explanation. Not just this one post it links to. Maybe search the thread for "layered" to see all the other tips.

I think the idea is the lowest altitude guys are the sacrificial lambs for the most part. So, one thought is to keep good pilots or best pilots away from those planes. As Pax says, it's all for later war when defending and esp to counter the P-47s as they rule using simple CAP.