Saving squadrons from a sinking CV

[jwxspoon]

Just finished a 10 day CV battle as Americans... it went sort of like this:

1. Saw the enemy was moving on Noumea. Seet up a 4 CV ambush to catch the jap invasion/bombardment force. I knew KB was in the DEI.

2. What I didn't know was that mini KB was accompanying the Japanese Noumea invasion fleet. When I realized it, I decided to attack anyway.

3. Japs spot my attack early due to an idiot full speed move on my part. Japs get a free long ranged torpedo attack on the Saratoga CV group. Sara takes several torpedo hits.

4. I am able to close with and, over the next few days, sink 3 of 4 Jap CVE's/CVL's and badly damage the 4th. All of my CV's take damage but only Saratoga is in bad shape.

5. I'm able to limp Saratoga to a nearby size 1 port. Damage is roughly 90-80-10 when I get there. Sara still has her full compliment of aircraft - 72 planes at an average 80 exp. I am frantic to try and save some. The base Sara was able to get to has no airfield. I am unable to unload anything or even transfer to another ship in the same port.

6. Saratoga sinks and I take 72 aircraft losses and lose all those exp pilots.

Very frustrating. Obviously 72 experienced pilots wouldn't sit in the wardroom and drown when the ship sank. Is there anything I could have done differently to save these pilots? How about the aircraft?

jw

[Hoplosternum]

Yes very frustrating.

Other than going towards a base with a size 1 airfield instead I don't think you could do anything more. I usually try for the nearest airbase in order to try and save the airgroups rather than the nearest base even if it's another day or two sailing. What real value is a Port 1 or 2 even with allied damage control?

It's often impossible to get the parent unit off a stricken CV anyway, but you can save the undamaged planes and a pilot a piece that way.

I find in '42 both for the Allies and the Japanese the loss of the squadrons is as bad or worse than the flattop herself.

[Rob Brennan UK]

I think you need a size 3 + port to offload a/c when disbanded in port but i could be wrong .. never sent a damaged CV to a size1 before.

[acmejeff]

I've managed to get my squadrons off in a size one port.

[dtravel]

I would think that all you would need is a size 1 airfield within transfer range.  Sounds like Jwxspoon didn't even try to transfer them to a base, just to other ships.  (Note: I said "transfer", not "unload".)

[jwxspoon]

After the strike in which Saratoga was hit, she was no longer able to operate aircraft. 
 
I tried everything I could think of, even bringing Yorktown into the port with her to try and transfer aircraft directly in the port.  Nothing worked.
 
jw

[Ron Saueracker]

What about withdrawing the squadrons? Frustrating design oversight nonetheless.

[tsimmonds]

I believe I recall that if system damage plus flooding plus fires totals at least 50, then the a/c are stuck on the ship no matter what.

[djeezman]

funnily enough I had also such a problem.
But I reached 8 hexes from a flimsy US island base without Engineers(1 airport, 1 harbour) and I managed to send my planes to over there. Even the torpedo planes with range 2 !
And even though on he transfer window it said the planes would be sent in crates ( -r ).
But once there, only one or two planes were in repair.
 
Then I halted the CV because with each hex movement the FLT damage went up with 3 or 4 points, and by standing still it goes down with one.
And now the funny thing; I incidentally hit the button of Replenish TF at sea (CV amongst other DD and some CL) and the next day the FL damage went down with 6 points ![:'(]
!
 
 

[Ron Saueracker]

ORIGINAL: djeezman

funnily enough I had also such a problem.
But I reached 8 hexes from a flimsy US island base without Engineers(1 airport, 1 harbour) and I managed to send my planes to over there. Even the torpedo planes with range 2 !
And even though on he transfer window it said the planes would be sent in crates ( -r ).
But once there, only one or two planes were in repair.

Then I halted the CV because with each hex movement the FLT damage went up with 3 or 4 points, and by standing still it goes down with one.
And now the funny thing; I incidentally hit the button of Replenish TF at sea (CV amongst other DD and some CL) and the next day the FL damage went down with 6 points ![:'(]
!

I wonder if this is "working as designed?"[8D][8|]

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: djeezman

funnily enough I had also such a problem.
But I reached 8 hexes from a flimsy US island base without Engineers(1 airport, 1 harbour) and I managed to send my planes to over there. Even the torpedo planes with range 2 !

That range of 2 is just their combat or attack range. Aircraft can transfer up to their full range, which is the top, longest, range listed.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: jwxspoon

After the strike in which Saratoga was hit, she was no longer able to operate aircraft. 

I tried everything I could think of, even bringing Yorktown into the port with her to try and transfer aircraft directly in the port.  Nothing worked.

jw

The "Transfer to Base" button in the air unit screen was greyed out? Not meaning to sound like I doubt you, this may be the way it works. I just want to make sure I'm learning it right too.

[Nikademus]

The transfer button routines represent the carrier in question flying off it's planes to another location, be that a base or another carrier. The CV has to be below 50% SYS to be able to conduct flight ops. CV's did not nominally unship their planes en-mass by crane etc which would represent an unusual situation. Add to that Sara is at SYS 90% with massive flooding she isn't in much shape for an orderly disembarkement by crane or whatever from the ship to a shorebase. A size 1 base in particular is not going to have the facilities for such an operation to begin with.

[Hoplosternum]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: jwxspoon

After the strike in which Saratoga was hit, she was no longer able to operate aircraft. 

I tried everything I could think of, even bringing Yorktown into the port with her to try and transfer aircraft directly in the port.  Nothing worked.

jw

The "Transfer to Base" button in the air unit screen was greyed out? Not meaning to sound like I doubt you, this may be the way it works. I just want to make sure I'm learning it right too.

There was no airfield at the base. Just a Port 1. This was why the button was greyed out/not working. You can't directly transfer to another ship as far as I am aware unless it can 'fly' i.e the CV can conduct flight ops.

IME CVs rarely give up the 'parent' unit inless it is 100% OK. Unlike LBA where even if just one plane transferes thats the 'new' parent unit on CVs the parent unit remains on board if it can. So he'd have only got off fragments anyway.

Two examples of the problems I've had:

I had terrible trouble getting planes off a crippled Shokaku in one game. The fragments kept getting back on board ship to recombine on the striken vessel at Kendari until I flew them to another base! I never could get the parent units off. She survived in the end so it did not matter.

I recently lost an allied CVL off Wake after an ill fated nuisance raid on Japan in mid '43. The Fighters and Avengers transfered to it's sisters after she went well over 50 in all three catagories (sank a day or two later). Now these were fragments and the parents went down with the ship even though the parents had neither any planes or pilots in them! And fragments can't upgrade or get reinforced (well easily anyway).

Basically unless the airgroup is in good condition its tough to get it off the CV. Then of course other problems occur when you succeed.... [:)]

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

I recently lost an allied CVL off Wake after an ill fated nuisance raid on Japan in mid '43. The Fighters and Avengers transfered to it's sisters after she went well over 50 in all three catagories (sank a day or two later). Now these were fragments and the parents went down with the ship even though the parents had neither any planes or pilots in them! And fragments can't upgrade or get reinforced (well easily anyway).

That's normal with "leftovers" from sunken carriers. You can either use them as is until the planes are gone or disband them into other units.

[Feinder]

Just as a, "Hm.  You learn something new every day..."
 
If your CV hosts more squadron either deliberately or not, it seems to count against the limit for number of sqdns, until you have disbanded the TF.  Example, I like to attach an extra USMC SBD sqdn to my USN CVs until the July refit.  16 extra bombers, is still 16 extra bombers.  Or if you’re in a battle (as described above), and the remnents of another airgroup decides to land on your CV, those two sqdns will count against the five sqdn limit until your CV is disbanded, even if you move the sqdns off at a later turn.  It still thinks you have 5 sqdns aboard, and will not allow you to move other sqdns onto your CV (even tho you now may have only the original 3, and your other guest sqdns have moved off).
 
Just FYI.
 
-F-
 

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

ORIGINAL: dtravel

ORIGINAL: jwxspoon

After the strike in which Saratoga was hit, she was no longer able to operate aircraft. 

I tried everything I could think of, even bringing Yorktown into the port with her to try and transfer aircraft directly in the port.  Nothing worked.

jw

The "Transfer to Base" button in the air unit screen was greyed out? Not meaning to sound like I doubt you, this may be the way it works. I just want to make sure I'm learning it right too.

There was no airfield at the base. Just a Port 1. This was why the button was greyed out/not working. You can't directly transfer to another ship as far as I am aware unless it can 'fly' i.e the CV can conduct flight ops.

The "Transfer to Base" is not limited to just the base the CV is docked at. The size or lack of an airfield at the base the CV is docked at has absolutely nothing to do with it. They could have transferred to another nearby base within the Maximum Range of the planes unless the button was greyed out.

It appears that the "50 point damage limit" for flight ops also prevents transferring the planes off the ship. Okay, that's how it works, now we know. But the size of the airfield in the same hex has nothing to do with it.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: dtravel
It appears that the "50 point damage limit" for flight ops also prevents transferring the planes off the ship. Okay, that's how it works, now we know. But the size of the airfield in the same hex has nothing to do with it.

Just to clarify, you can't fly planes off a damaged carrier if the combined (sys, flot, and/or fire) damage is >50. If the ship is disbanded in a port, you can offload planes regardless of damage.

[ADM Halsey]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum

I recently lost an allied CVL off Wake after an ill fated nuisance raid on Japan in mid '43. The Fighters and Avengers transfered to it's sisters after she went well over 50 in all three catagories (sank a day or two later). Now these were fragments and the parents went down with the ship even though the parents had neither any planes or pilots in them! And fragments can't upgrade or get reinforced (well easily anyway).

That's normal with "leftovers" from sunken carriers. You can either use them as is until the planes are gone or disband them into other units.

I am not sure if this has been hit on yet. Carrier base fragments can only be disbanded to other carrier base air units.

I remember this battle well. I was able to get the majority of the air units off my Light carrier group. The Sara went down on her own and I lost all the light carriers. To me it was a good trade since damage was caused to the other carriers.

[jwxspoon]

I remember this battle well. I was able to get the majority of the air units off my Light carrier group. The Sara went down on her own and I lost all the light carriers. To me it was a good trade since damage was caused to the other carriers.

 
What a fight it was to try and keep Saratoga alive.  Of course, you didn't help by running a surface combat tf into the port with her.
 
jw