Early turn ends

[Heldenkaiser]

I keep getting hit by early turn ends after only one or two rounds of combat, and I can't really understand what's going on.

- Yes, I know how the combat rounds system works, and I have previously been able to get as many as 8 to 10 rounds of combat per turn. I always check the attack planner to make sure that first round combats show only one square in the panel top-right, second round combats only two, and so on.
- I am using exclusively limited attack/minimize losses, which in my understanding should make sure that an attack doesn't usually last longer than 10% of the turn. - Or does it not?
- On top of everything, this is in a scenario which apparantely has an MRPB setting of 3, which should guarantee at least 3 rounds per turn if everything else goes wrong, no?

Yes, I am new to TOAW, but I've read all the stuff there is around and really have been able to control my combats before and get a high number of rounds per turn. I am sort of out of my wits now, and this is getting depressing. Is there anything, above from the things I've mentioned above, that I may have forgotten to consider that could help me understand (and hopefully solve) my problem?

Oh, and another question ... is it true that, if the END_OF_TURN... file has all units at zero MP, it was combats that ended my turn, and not a failed proficiency check? Or would they be at zero MP at turn end in any case?

Thanks for any comments.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Heldenkaiser

- I am using exclusively limited attack/minimize losses, which in my understanding should make sure that an attack doesn't usually last longer than 10% of the turn. - Or does it not?

It doesn't guarantee anything. What minimise losses does is make the units more likely to break off from combat, which can cause problems if four out of five units break off immediately but one particularly stubborn unit just keeps plugging away with no chance of causing the defender to retreat. Limited attack does something else entirely and I wouldn't recommend it as a tool to prevent early turn ending.

On top of everything, this is in a scenario which apparantely has an MRPB setting of 3, which should guarantee at least 3 rounds per turn if everything else goes wrong, no?

The setting is the maximum number of rounds that can be consumed by a battle. So if you take the precautions you outlined in the first point, you should get at least a 70% and a 40% round.

Oh, and another question ... is it true that, if the END_OF_TURN... file has all units at zero MP, it was combats that ended my turn, and not a failed proficiency check? Or would they be at zero MP at turn end in any case?

Are you refering to the special PBM save? I'm not familiar with that yet. Your statement is true for ordinary saves.

What is the scenario in question? Some scenarios just don't produce a lot of rounds. It's not actually normal to be getting eight rounds (and is technically impossible to get 10 without exploiting flaws in the game system).

[Heldenkaiser]

Thank you for your comments.

Regarding LA/ML, I was primarily referring to ML with respect to the round burning issue, but was also under the impression that LA, which doesn't even aim at expelling the enemy from the defending hex and halves the attack effort, would also be more likely to keep rounds to a minimum.

So you are saying that even with ML, a unit could decide to just keep attacking, at least until the MRPB limit? What would cause it to?

And yes, I mean the "END_OF_TURN_DO_NOT_SEND_(file name).SAL" file that is automatically created when a PBEM turn ends.

The scenario is the newest version of Two Weeks in Normandy (v. 2.32). I was told (at SZO) that in the earlier turns the shock setting may have helped me to get more rounds, but all the same I sharply dropped from something like 8 or 9 rounds (I believe I got 10 in T1) in the first couple of turns to just two rounds in the last two - it goes 60% after the first round, then turn end after the second. And I can't really say what I've been doing differently before.

[Heldenkaiser]

Don't know if this will work, but this is the scenario ...

http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forum ... 1151603598

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Heldenkaiser

Regarding LA/ML, I was primarily referring to ML with respect to the round burning issue, but was also under the impression that LA, which doesn't even aim at expelling the enemy from the defending hex and halves the attack effort, would also be more likely to keep rounds to a minimum.

Limited Attacks can make the defender retreat. The attackers just won't advance into the gap.

So you are saying that even with ML, a unit could decide to just keep attacking, at least until the MRPB limit? What would cause it to?

Units with very high proficiency have a tendency to hold on regardless of loss settings.

The scenario is the newest version of Two Weeks in Normandy (v. 2.32). I was told (at SZO) that in the earlier turns the shock setting may have helped me to get more rounds, but all the same I sharply dropped from something like 8 or 9 rounds (I believe I got 10 in T1) in the first couple of turns to just two rounds in the last two - it goes 60% after the first round, then turn end after the second. And I can't really say what I've been doing differently before.

This sounds about right. A lot of scenarios see many rounds during a period of shock bonus (and particularly overwhelming superiority), then fall back to a more normal two to four rounds per turn.

It is entirely possible to get ten rounds in the turn- but only if you saved the game during a round and then loaded it again.

[Heldenkaiser]

Thank you again ... but still, the MRPB settings should control the rounds, no?

It is entirely possible to get ten rounds in the turn- but only if you saved the game during a round and then loaded it again.

I don't think I did ... may I ask how and why this would make a difference?

[Anthropoid]

I had the impression that the determining factor in how much of a turn gets burned is how many remaining movement points the attackers have when they attack, and that pretty much everything else is moot.
 
However, my own experiences with being surprised that I do not get multiple combat rounds in one turn is also making me think that it is more complicated than this.
 
Specifically, in the Vietnam 1965-1968 scenario. Last turn, me allies against PO. I assigned probably 30 to 35 different attacks else bombards at various points all over Vietnam. Several of them were stand off arty bombardments and plane bombardments. None of the planes had moved, and with the exception of the one arty, none of the arty had moved either. None of the attacking units had moved. All the Plan Attack windows showed low (10% to 20% of turn) use. Nonetheless, this ended my turn. This has has got me thinking of the solution:
 
(1) I missed a unit and included one with low movement points remaining
(2) Even when each combat only takes 10%, cumulatively, 10 or 15 of these burn up the whole turn?
(3) complex attacks involving arty, planes, and land forces use up more than is shown in the Plan Attack window
(4) standoff bombard attacks using arty only, and which do not show the Plan Attack window, are somehow accounting for it?

[Heldenkaiser]

(1) I missed a unit and included one with low movement points remaining

Always a good explanation, and one hard to rule out in a big scenario. Still, last turn I can say I am 99% sure this was not was caused my turn end, because I was out to track down the problem, and doublechecked every single combat in the planner.

(2) Even when each combat only takes 10%, cumulatively, 10 or 15 of these burn up the whole turn?

Yes, but MRPB should check it, or?

(3) complex attacks involving arty, planes, and land forces use up more than is shown in the Plan Attack window

Even there, it was my impression that supporting arms on minimize losses would prevent combats from taking too long.

(4) standoff bombard attacks using arty only, and which do not show the Plan Attack window, are somehow accounting for it?

Ditto. If they are on ML, they should burn only 10% of the turn each.
(Besides, I am told that pure bombardments are next to useless in terms of effectiveness ...)

But maybe I'm dead wrong on all of this ... even likely.

[Anthropoid]

Ah yeah. I had forgot that Limit Loses could account for it. That is probably where my problems are coming in.

If you set up an attack in the Plan Attack with Min Loss and it says 10%, it seems to me that if you set up the exact same attack with Lim Loss it will ALSO say 10%, but maybe in fact it CAN take longer, depending on how much resistance is met? i.e., if additional rounds are needed then they will be burned up, thus burning up more of the turn.

[JAMiAM]

If you're looking at the end of turn saves, then the MP's for units in these save files are set to zero MP's to avoid the possibility of reloading the save file, and playing on, in the hopes that your opponent doesn't see the end of turn text in the playback record.

Since that scenario (for the NPW) is set to an MRPB of 3, your two most likely causes of early turn ending is from a failed prof check, or poor attack planning. The force prof's are pretty low in this scenario, IIRC. I'm not at a computer with TOAW III installed, at the moment, but I think they are somewhere in the vicinity of only 60%. This leads to a lot of failed prof checks.

Prior to making that change of the MRPB, this scenario did have a tendency to have problems with turn burning attacks taking up too many tactical rounds due to the attrition divider, the altered scale, and the high proportion of hard targets on the map. Hopefully, you and your opponent are in fact using the specially adjusted scenario for the workshop.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Heldenkaiser

Thank you again ... but still, the MRPB settings should control the rounds, no?

In theory. I haven't had a great deal of experience with this feature, but if it works as advertised you can only get fewer than three rounds if you set up attacks with units which have already used more of their move than the amount of the turn that has been consumed.

I don't think I did ... may I ask how and why this would make a difference?

The current % of the turn is not saved with the file. So when you load a saved game the game thinks you haven't used any of the turn at all, and as such if none of your combats last more than one round you can get the same % remaining as you had on the last round. Otherwise the best you can get is nine rounds, since the game will always decrement the % of the turn remaining and will never give you another round at 10% remaining.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

(1) I missed a unit and included one with low movement points remaining

Possible. Of course, this is summarised for you in TOAW III.

(2) Even when each combat only takes 10%, cumulatively, 10 or 15 of these burn up the whole turn?

No. Never.

(4) standoff bombard attacks using arty only, and which do not show the Plan Attack window, are somehow accounting for it?

Yes. These work exactly the same way as other attacks when it comes to round consumption. If you made a direct bombardment with an artillery (or air) unit that has already moved, then you will lose part of your turn as a result.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

If you set up an attack in the Plan Attack with Min Loss and it says 10%, it seems to me that if you set up the exact same attack with Lim Loss it will ALSO say 10%, but maybe in fact it CAN take longer, depending on how much resistance is met? i.e., if additional rounds are needed then they will be burned up, thus burning up more of the turn.

Any loss setting can produce a turn-burning attack and any loss setting can produce an attack which last just one round. There are other factors involved.

[Heldenkaiser]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

If you're looking at the end of turn saves, then the MP's for units in these save files are set to zero MP's to avoid the possibility of reloading the save file, and playing on, in the hopes that your opponent doesn't see the end of turn text in the playback record.

Since that scenario (for the NPW) is set to an MRPB of 3, your two most likely causes of early turn ending is from a failed prof check, or poor attack planning. The force prof's are pretty low in this scenario, IIRC. I'm not at a computer with TOAW III installed, at the moment, but I think they are somewhere in the vicinity of only 60%. This leads to a lot of failed prof checks.

Prior to making that change of the MRPB, this scenario did have a tendency to have problems with turn burning attacks taking up too many tactical rounds due to the attrition divider, the altered scale, and the high proportion of hard targets on the map. Hopefully, you and your opponent are in fact using the specially adjusted scenario for the workshop.

Thanks for clarifying that! So there is no telling from the end of turn SAL file what the cause for the early turn end was.

Still, we *are* using the adjusted workshop version, so it should limit combats to 3 rounds, right? ...

[Heldenkaiser]

Any loss setting can produce a turn-burning attack and any loss setting can produce an attack which last just one round. There are other factors involved.

Bitter truths ... but good to know. Thanks! [X(]

[Heldenkaiser]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
The current % of the turn is not saved with the file. So when you load a saved game the game thinks you haven't used any of the turn at all, and as such if none of your combats last more than one round you can get the same % remaining as you had on the last round. Otherwise the best you can get is nine rounds, since the game will always decrement the % of the turn remaining and will never give you another round at 10% remaining.

Hm ...

Q1 - if that is so, isn't it something that should be addressed? As plainly it is useful to be able to save PBEM turns that can take hours to complete, but equally plainly what you describe would be an unintended side effect. [X(]

Q2 - at SZO, a veteran told me that a shock bonus could lead to more than 10 combat rounds ... is this incorrect then?

Thanks! [:)]

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Heldenkaiser

Q1 - if that is so, isn't it something that should be addressed? As plainly it is useful to be able to save PBEM turns that can take hours to complete, but equally plainly what you describe would be an unintended side effect. [X(]

This bug has just been discovered in the last couple of months. That's why it hasn't been fixed yet.

Q2 - at SZO, a veteran told me that a shock bonus could lead to more than 10 combat rounds ... is this incorrect then?

This was a widely accepted explanation but it is now known not to be true. Thing is, you usually get a shock bonus at the start of an offensive- just the sort of situation where your turn will take hours and hours to play out, and so you'll be saving and reloading perhaps multiple times in one turn.

[Catch21]

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Q2 - at SZO, a veteran told me that a shock bonus could lead to more than 10 combat rounds ... is this incorrect then?

This was a widely accepted explanation but it is now known not to be true. Thing is, you usually get a shock bonus at the start of an offensive- just the sort of situation where your turn will take hours and hours to play out, and so you'll be saving and reloading perhaps multiple times in one turn.

Are you sure about this? I believe Mantis at SZO holds the world record for number of rounds in a turn- certainly over 10- though I'm not sure what that is. I'll see if I can locate him for confirmation.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: General Staff

Are you sure about this? I believe Mantis at SZO holds the world record for number of rounds in a turn- certainly over 10- though I'm not sure what that is. I'll see if I can locate him for confirmation.

As I recall his total was 27.

The bug was first reported here;
http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1153165723

It was discussed on WHQ here;
http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forum ... hp?t=42949

Jarek quotes JAMiAM on the second page acknowledging that this is a bug.

[Mantis]

ORIGINAL: General Staff

Are you sure about this? I believe Mantis at SZO holds the world record for number of rounds in a turn- certainly over 10- though I'm not sure what that is. I'll see if I can locate him for confirmation.

As I recall his total was 27.

The bug was first reported here;
http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1153165723

It was discussed on WHQ here;
http://www.strategyzoneonline.com/forum ... hp?t=42949

Jarek quotes JAMiAM on the second page acknowledging that this is a bug.
[/quote]

It was 28 rounds, and it was in Europe Aflame (what else?) I was under the impression that it was due to shock as well, but James said he was able to replicate it in Arracourt, so I really have no idea. And I still have to wonder if shock plays a part in this caluclation (wherever it is made), as non-round-bruning combats are quite common in EA when you aren't having a monster turn.