Looking through the scenarios for some possible WITP escapes into the AP OOB
Large AP West Point - Is this the Gibbs passenger liner America that was launched in the 1930's?
Large AP President Coolidge - This is positively prescient for the early scenarios but the President Coolidge was launched in 1931.
Small AK Wilhelmina: The SS Wilhelmina was sailing for the Matson Line. During WW1 she was taken up by the navy and served as troop transport to Europe. She carried about 2000 troups per voyage so I think she probably belongs as a small AP.
Large AP President Johnson - in the early scenario she was the Manchuria, her name change to the President Johnson only occurred in the late 1920s after the late scenarios had started.
Some plausible substitutes: US Flag passenger ships in the Pacific during the 1920s:
Large AP President McKinley (sister to the President Madison)
Large AP President Grant (Type 535 Transport)
Large AP President Jefferson (Type 535 Transport)
Large AP President Cleveland (Type 535 Transport)
Large AP President Lincoln (Type 535 Transport)
Large AP President Pierce (Type 535 Transport)
Large AP President Taft
Large PA President Jackson
Large AP President Pierce
Large AP President Wilson
Large AP Mongolia
Large AP Pennsylvania (commissioned 1929)
Large AP Virginia (commissioned 1929)
Large AP California (commissioned 1928)
Large AP Malolo (commissioned 1927)
Medium AP Matsonia
Medium AP Maui
Medium AP President Hayes (Type 502 Transport)
Medium AP President Harrison
Medium AP City of Honolulu (Former German liner, lost to fire at sea, October 1922)
Medium AP U.S. Grant (US Army Transport routinely rotating troops to/from Philippines)
Medium AP Thomas (US Army Transport routinely rotating troops to/from Philippines, took survivors off the City of Honolulu)
Large AP, City of Los Angeles (Former German liner)
Small AP Calawaii
Small AP/possible ML conversion, Yale
Small AP/possible ML conversion, Harvard
Small AP Lurline
Small AP Sierra
Small AP Sonoma
Small AP Venture
Under the Canadian Flag
Medium AP Great Northern
Additional Transports either laid up in reserve or nearly ready for disposal
Large AP Mount Vernon
Small AP Buford (veteran of Spanish-American War)
Large AP Agamemnon
Large AP Antigone
Medium AP Chateau Thierry
Medium AP Mercury
Medium AP Amphion
Medium AP Artemis
Medium AP Philadelphia (1889 launch but a 20 knot North Atlantic liner past her prime)
Medium AP City of New York (1889 launch but 20 knot North Atlantic liner past her prime)
I've pretty much left the Latin American and Atlantic passenger ships off the table.
WITP AP's?
-
jwilkerson
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RE: WITP AP's?
Engineer,
Post this on the WITP Forum and you'll probably get more meaningful responses ... this here is the WPO (War Plan Orange) forum ... we have no WITP APs here !!!
Post this on the WITP Forum and you'll probably get more meaningful responses ... this here is the WPO (War Plan Orange) forum ... we have no WITP APs here !!!
WITP Admiral's Edition - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
War In Spain - Project Lead
RE: WITP AP's?
But that's my point. What are ships that were launched until after 1930 doing in the WPO data base?
All of the ships that I listed as substitutes were in commercial service or laid up as post-Great War surplus in 1922 or entered service during during the noted year in the 1920s.
I haven't even started checking the Commonwealth, Dutch, or Japanese vessels against the Shipping List.
The other point that jumps out from the size of the in-service list is that the initial and early reinforcements for the allies could easily double the current AP inventory. Most of the liners listed were eventually converted to military use in WW2 if they weren't scrapped as overage when the Depression collapsed trade.
All of the ships that I listed as substitutes were in commercial service or laid up as post-Great War surplus in 1922 or entered service during during the noted year in the 1920s.
I haven't even started checking the Commonwealth, Dutch, or Japanese vessels against the Shipping List.
The other point that jumps out from the size of the in-service list is that the initial and early reinforcements for the allies could easily double the current AP inventory. Most of the liners listed were eventually converted to military use in WW2 if they weren't scrapped as overage when the Depression collapsed trade.
RE: WITP AP's?
As was stated somewhere in the FAQ (I do believe), WitP's merchant system was used as a base for WPO's system. What WPO covers is, to put it bluntly, virgin territory. Considering how small a team we had doing the database (me and....well, me), I chose to focus on the military aspects versus the merchant area. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to have tracked down every single last merchantmen that existed in the 1920s, but the data is not readily available, often incomplete, and in determining the presedence of things and attempting to get the project out in a reasonable manner (this was in development for 15 months), I chose to simplify the merchant area.
My view is to me, getting realistic air squadrons (which even then, for Japan, had to be approximated and guessed), realistic ground units, and a (if I do say so myself) very comprehensive naval database took precedence (not to mention having to do all the art for the above, a full time job in and of itself, and then you have scenario design....) It was a compromise. I wasn't 100% satisfied with it, but considering of all the aspects of WPO the merchant's names would be looked at the least, I felt it was necessary. That, or you guys might still be waiting on WPO [:D].
My view is to me, getting realistic air squadrons (which even then, for Japan, had to be approximated and guessed), realistic ground units, and a (if I do say so myself) very comprehensive naval database took precedence (not to mention having to do all the art for the above, a full time job in and of itself, and then you have scenario design....) It was a compromise. I wasn't 100% satisfied with it, but considering of all the aspects of WPO the merchant's names would be looked at the least, I felt it was necessary. That, or you guys might still be waiting on WPO [:D].
Designer of War Plan Orange
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
Allied Naval OOBer of Admiral's Edition
Naval Team Lead for War in the Med
Author of Million-Dollar Barrage: American Field Artillery in the Great War coming soon from OU Press.
RE: WITP AP's?
Thanks for the reply. I suspected that this was the case and the prioritization you outlined is absolutely proper. I have few inhibitions as a modder and when I picked up some discrepancies in the OOB that begged for some further research and you can see where I followed the thread.
What I had in mind as a weekend project was to catalog the US AP's and then cross check those against the public sources. Then I could recommend discarding those that weren't available for the time period and compare the discards against the historical shipping that was available for a direct substitution into the slot. I've already found good sources for the US shipping (US Naval Historical Society, the Shipping List, and a variety of sites that give histories of particular lines, even Globalsecurity.org has some records that go back that far).
The tricky parts get into the play balance part of it and some history. The Great Depression resulted in a big shake-out in the shipping industry due to the decline in international trade after everyone erected tarriff barriers in a futile attempt to prevent economic collapse. Certainly there appear to be a lot more shipping companies operating in the 1920s than in the 1930s. In a 1920s scenario, ships from familiar names like Matson, LASSCO, and the Dollar Line would be available for military use. But there were also a lot of operations that didn't survive the Depression like Oceanic Steamship Co., American Orient, Admiral Oriental, and the Pacific Mail Steamship Co. that were trading in the WPO theater. Their vessels would end up contributing to the war effort, too. The merchant operations in the Atlantic and Latin America would remain untouched initially, but some ships there would be redirected to the war effort, especially tankers and some passenger liners. In other words, my impression is that there is a lot more shipping available than WPO includes in the OOB.
Some level of shipping needs to remain in theater "off the books" as it were to cover civilian trade with Alaska and the west coast of Latin America. It's not clear to me that any of the trade with the Antipodes and the Indies should remain "off the books", but I can see a potential exploit where players would take every available hull to support their offensives so I suppose that some budget of shipping needs to stay invisible to handle that trade, too. As another point, too, shipping in Japanese waters would be interned and taken over by the Empire at the outset of hostilities. (Presumably the Japanese would have arranged for "inspections" on their own shipping so a minimum of their merchant marine would be in Allied ports at the outset of war). So there are good reasons that every hull identified for the Pacific should not appear in the game.
Personally, I would also propose two new AP classes. The liner would be ships that displace about 20,000 tons or more and have "mission speeds" in the vicinity of 20 knots. Fuel costs would be high and I'm still undecided whether the capacity would increase beyond 6000 or not (8000 would be my estimate). The super-liner would be for ships that displace over 35,000 gross tons and have "mission speeds" of 23 knots or greater (they would appear in the game with 24 knots). Capacity would be in the 8000 to 10,000 range. These ships would be prodigiously thirsty. Only a handful of ships would plausibly fit in the Superliner categroy: Leviathan, Berengaria, Ile de France, Majestic, Aquitania. I would recommend that only Leviathan would be added to the OOB. Only a few more would fit into the Liner category: Olympic, Paris, Malolo, Prinz Frederik William, Mount Vernon, and the Agamemnon. However, except for the Paris, I can see the others easily showing up in theater. The last two were actually US Army Transports under the control of the War Department. They were laid up between the wars and scrapped as too old by the time WW2 started, but in the 1920s, they would probably be refurbished to be used as troopships again (their role in WW1 after converted from interned German liners). Cruise speeds for these big transports would be in the 12-14 knot range so they could accompany the large AK's and cruising destroyers without slowing down the task forces even if they have some damage.
I know the US merchants could go through a similar exercise and I'm pretty confident that the UK vessels have sources that would permit a similar scrub. I don't have the language skills to explore French or Dutch records. When it comes to the Japanese . . .
Some of the small US coastal liners were converted to mine-layers in WW1 and used to lay the North Sea barricade. The "end-game" in the historical War Plan Orange was a blockade of the Japanese home islands and called for mining of the home waters. It's logical that these sort of ships would appear in the mid game OOB's as conversions.
If I'm going to do the work anyway, and I don't have a problem sharing it so this seems to be a good place to post it. I'd be honored if it got included in a later patch [&o]. But I tend to chase facts let play balance find its own level after the historical model is built as close as I can get it to what's known.
What I had in mind as a weekend project was to catalog the US AP's and then cross check those against the public sources. Then I could recommend discarding those that weren't available for the time period and compare the discards against the historical shipping that was available for a direct substitution into the slot. I've already found good sources for the US shipping (US Naval Historical Society, the Shipping List, and a variety of sites that give histories of particular lines, even Globalsecurity.org has some records that go back that far).
The tricky parts get into the play balance part of it and some history. The Great Depression resulted in a big shake-out in the shipping industry due to the decline in international trade after everyone erected tarriff barriers in a futile attempt to prevent economic collapse. Certainly there appear to be a lot more shipping companies operating in the 1920s than in the 1930s. In a 1920s scenario, ships from familiar names like Matson, LASSCO, and the Dollar Line would be available for military use. But there were also a lot of operations that didn't survive the Depression like Oceanic Steamship Co., American Orient, Admiral Oriental, and the Pacific Mail Steamship Co. that were trading in the WPO theater. Their vessels would end up contributing to the war effort, too. The merchant operations in the Atlantic and Latin America would remain untouched initially, but some ships there would be redirected to the war effort, especially tankers and some passenger liners. In other words, my impression is that there is a lot more shipping available than WPO includes in the OOB.
Some level of shipping needs to remain in theater "off the books" as it were to cover civilian trade with Alaska and the west coast of Latin America. It's not clear to me that any of the trade with the Antipodes and the Indies should remain "off the books", but I can see a potential exploit where players would take every available hull to support their offensives so I suppose that some budget of shipping needs to stay invisible to handle that trade, too. As another point, too, shipping in Japanese waters would be interned and taken over by the Empire at the outset of hostilities. (Presumably the Japanese would have arranged for "inspections" on their own shipping so a minimum of their merchant marine would be in Allied ports at the outset of war). So there are good reasons that every hull identified for the Pacific should not appear in the game.
Personally, I would also propose two new AP classes. The liner would be ships that displace about 20,000 tons or more and have "mission speeds" in the vicinity of 20 knots. Fuel costs would be high and I'm still undecided whether the capacity would increase beyond 6000 or not (8000 would be my estimate). The super-liner would be for ships that displace over 35,000 gross tons and have "mission speeds" of 23 knots or greater (they would appear in the game with 24 knots). Capacity would be in the 8000 to 10,000 range. These ships would be prodigiously thirsty. Only a handful of ships would plausibly fit in the Superliner categroy: Leviathan, Berengaria, Ile de France, Majestic, Aquitania. I would recommend that only Leviathan would be added to the OOB. Only a few more would fit into the Liner category: Olympic, Paris, Malolo, Prinz Frederik William, Mount Vernon, and the Agamemnon. However, except for the Paris, I can see the others easily showing up in theater. The last two were actually US Army Transports under the control of the War Department. They were laid up between the wars and scrapped as too old by the time WW2 started, but in the 1920s, they would probably be refurbished to be used as troopships again (their role in WW1 after converted from interned German liners). Cruise speeds for these big transports would be in the 12-14 knot range so they could accompany the large AK's and cruising destroyers without slowing down the task forces even if they have some damage.
I know the US merchants could go through a similar exercise and I'm pretty confident that the UK vessels have sources that would permit a similar scrub. I don't have the language skills to explore French or Dutch records. When it comes to the Japanese . . .
Some of the small US coastal liners were converted to mine-layers in WW1 and used to lay the North Sea barricade. The "end-game" in the historical War Plan Orange was a blockade of the Japanese home islands and called for mining of the home waters. It's logical that these sort of ships would appear in the mid game OOB's as conversions.
If I'm going to do the work anyway, and I don't have a problem sharing it so this seems to be a good place to post it. I'd be honored if it got included in a later patch [&o]. But I tend to chase facts let play balance find its own level after the historical model is built as close as I can get it to what's known.
RE: WITP AP's?
A sample:
President Coolidge - large AP - launched 1930s - substitute President McKinley available H+0 all scenarios (add ship number for ease of update data base).
President Fillmore - large AP - former German Liner Hamburg - no action
President Garfield - Medium AP - Type 502 transport - no action needed
President Johnson - Large AP - pre-war passenger liner - rename to Manchuria (actual name in 1920s - no other action needed
W. A. Holbrook - Medium AP - Can't find, but there was a US Major General by thatname, likely WW2 transport - substitute Matsonia
Barnstable - Medium AP - confirmed APA-93 commissioned 1943 - substititute US Army Transport U. S. Grant
etc., etc., etc.
President Coolidge - large AP - launched 1930s - substitute President McKinley available H+0 all scenarios (add ship number for ease of update data base).
President Fillmore - large AP - former German Liner Hamburg - no action
President Garfield - Medium AP - Type 502 transport - no action needed
President Johnson - Large AP - pre-war passenger liner - rename to Manchuria (actual name in 1920s - no other action needed
W. A. Holbrook - Medium AP - Can't find, but there was a US Major General by thatname, likely WW2 transport - substitute Matsonia
Barnstable - Medium AP - confirmed APA-93 commissioned 1943 - substititute US Army Transport U. S. Grant
etc., etc., etc.
RE: WITP AP's? - Interim update
A little less than half-done. Preliminary observations:
- More mistakes found. Several WW2 tankers are mis-categorized as Medium AP's
- Bloemfontein was a Dutch liner taken over in 1941 by the USA, she should go back to the Netherlands
- I've put together a scratch list of US Army Transports for the period, but so far my research hasn't found a good history of the transport service that goes back into the 20's. Mostly, I'm picking them up as they pass to and from US Navy control. I'm highly confident my data for this sub-category is incomplete.
- War time construction seems plausible,whether it took place in the 1940s or the 1920s. Most of the reinforcements will stand.
- Plain versus Upgraded AP's: The major difference that I see in the class data is the more complete armament for the upgraded AP's. This leads to some further reasoning:
- Two machineguns is an afternoon's work. It is reasonable to conclude that upgraded AP's reflect full conversion to a troopship and non-upgraded AP's are hasty take-overs of civilian shipping with little or no yard time for conversion.
- It follows that reinforcement AP's have the secondary armament in place since they were built that way or spent the yard time for conversion prior to be released to the theater of operations. The reinforcements, after the first few months of a scenario, will arrive as Upgraded AP's.
- The Queen Mary has some staterooms fitted out in period that show the contrast between the space allocation in troopship versus liner configurations. There is a lot more work taking place in the upgrade besides welding some gun-tubs for the secondary armament to the forecastle and the sterncastle. Flammable materials and potential splinter sources are also removed from the ship along with increasing the number of berths. In addition to the armament, the plain AP's should have a penalty on their capacity (at least 30%, but I'm reluctant to go more than this for fear of screwing up the computer AI), and the durability of the plain AP's should be a few points lower due to greater quantity of flammable material on board (carpets, curtains, wall paneling, etc.).
- Back in the Great War a US troop transport got into a running gun battle with a U-boat off Britanny. Neither ship scored a hit on the other. I'm wondering if the lack of central fire control, potential training issues with the gun crews, etc., might make it advisable to create a class of merchant gun devices that would have shorter range and lower accuracy that the guns used on warships. These would be mounted on the upgraded APs.
- The "merchant gun" idea also begs the question that the handful of regular naval AP's might be justified with their own class, primarily distinguished with regular secondary guns to reflect the greater training of the crews. AP1, USS Henderson, was equipped with 8 5" guns and her doctrine was to use them for naval gunfire in support of the Marines that would be landing from the ship. However, this is a bit of chrome that is easy to leave aside.
RE: WITP AP's? - Interim update
I too have noticed some WW2 ships in WPO - but Tankerace is right, it's virtually impossible to research all those 1920 vessels. If you absolutely must... here's what I came across for US ships in 1922. Needless to say, this is much, much, much more than I could find for IJN.
First is APs, ships color-coded to be later combined into 4 classes listed below.
Second is AKs.
[font=arial][left]Name[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]Length[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Displacement[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Speed[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Armament[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Location[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Date[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Henderson[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]484[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]7750[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]14[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]2 x 1-pdr[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Argonne[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]448[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]8400[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Chaumont[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]448[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]8300[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]14[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]President Grant[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]13529[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3", 6 x 40mm, 4 x 20mm[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Manila[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]George Washington[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]722[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]33000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]19[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Munargo[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]432[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]7100[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3", 8MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Fuller[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]507[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]8000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]George F. Elliot[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]507[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]7630[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3", 8MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Heywood[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]507[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]14450[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3", 8 x 40mm[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Southern Cross[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]636[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]21900[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 6", 8MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Orizaba[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]443[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11293[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5", 2 x 1-pdr[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]President Pierce[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]21900[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Hunter Liggett[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]21900[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]U. S. Grant[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]508[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15010[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5", 2 x 1-pdr, 2MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Wenatchee[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]21900[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Chateau Thierry[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]448[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]9050[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]St. Mihiel[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]448[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]8550[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Republic[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]599[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]33000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5", 2 x 1-pdr, 2MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]President McKinley[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]13529[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3", 8 x 40mm[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]American Legion[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]13729[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]18[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Stratford[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]261[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]3640[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 3", 3 x 40mm[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]President Cleveland[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12568[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Hawkeye State[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]532[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12579[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Republic-class[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]671[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17,500[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5", 2 AA MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Southern Cross-class[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]560[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10,950[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 6", 3 x 3", 2 AA MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Heywood-class[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]527[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]6,815[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 2 x 3", 4 AA MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Henderson-class[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]442[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]3,985[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 2 x 3", 3 AA MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Name[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]Length[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Displacement[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Speed[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Armament[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Location[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Date[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Houston[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]392[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]9000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Mare[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Newport News[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]371[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]13[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Manila[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Bath[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]344[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]6782[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]3 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Manila[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Pensacola[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]354[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]9821[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 4", 1 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Guam[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Quincy[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]367[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]6500[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Gold Star[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]392[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4860[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]6/30/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Capella[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]401[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4037[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]2 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Sirius[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]401[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4070[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]2 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Vega[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]401[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11320[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]2 x 5"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
First is APs, ships color-coded to be later combined into 4 classes listed below.
Second is AKs.
[font=arial][left]Name[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]Length[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Displacement[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Speed[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Armament[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Location[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Date[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Henderson[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]484[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]7750[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]14[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]2 x 1-pdr[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Argonne[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]448[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]8400[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Chaumont[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]448[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]8300[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]14[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]President Grant[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]13529[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3", 6 x 40mm, 4 x 20mm[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Manila[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]George Washington[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]722[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]33000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]19[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Munargo[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]432[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]7100[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3", 8MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Fuller[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]507[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]8000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]George F. Elliot[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]507[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]7630[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3", 8MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Heywood[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]507[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]14450[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3", 8 x 40mm[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Southern Cross[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]636[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]21900[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 6", 8MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Orizaba[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]443[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11293[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5", 2 x 1-pdr[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]President Pierce[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]21900[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Hunter Liggett[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]21900[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]U. S. Grant[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]508[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15010[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5", 2 x 1-pdr, 2MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Wenatchee[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]21900[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Chateau Thierry[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]448[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]9050[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]St. Mihiel[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]448[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]8550[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Republic[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]599[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]33000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5", 2 x 1-pdr, 2MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]President McKinley[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]13529[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3", 8 x 40mm[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]American Legion[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]13729[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]18[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Stratford[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]261[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]3640[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 3", 3 x 40mm[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]President Cleveland[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]535[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12568[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Hawkeye State[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]532[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12579[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Republic-class[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]671[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17,500[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 5", 2 AA MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Southern Cross-class[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]560[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10,950[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]16[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 6", 3 x 3", 2 AA MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Heywood-class[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]527[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]6,815[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]17[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 2 x 3", 4 AA MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Henderson-class[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]442[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]3,985[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]15[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 5", 2 x 3", 3 AA MG[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Name[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]Length[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Displacement[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Speed[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Armament[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Location[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Date[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Houston[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]392[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]9000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Mare[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Newport News[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]371[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10000[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]13[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Manila[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Bath[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]344[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]6782[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]3 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Manila[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Pensacola[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]354[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]9821[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1 x 4", 1 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Guam[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Quincy[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]367[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]6500[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]10/31/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Gold Star[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]392[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4860[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]6/30/1922[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Capella[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]401[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4037[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]2 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Sirius[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]401[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]4070[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]2 x 5", 4 x 3"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]1/31/1923[/font][/center]
[font=arial][left]Vega[/font][/left]
[font=arial][center]401[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]11320[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]12[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]2 x 5"[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]San Diego[/font][/center]
[font=arial][center]Start[/font][/center]
RE: WITP AP's? - Interim update
P.S. Mental note: Excel files do not get copy-pasted well 
RE: WITP AP's? - Interim update
Rysonok,
Do you have Excel? Right now I've got one sheet of ship data with lines that each vessel was associated with and the general area of operation (North Atlantic, Pacific, Latin America). My 1922 sheet is pretty far along, and my late scenario sheet needs work for mergers and acquisition between 1922 and 1926 (as well as deleting several vessels lost or scrapped in the meantime). When I'm a bit further along I can send you a PM with it as an attachment. My thought here was to create a .PDF for posting in the forum so the column headings and such are pretty straight forward.
I had missed the Oriziba. Her capsule history is here: http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/descriptions/ShipsO.html (Scroll down). In the 1920's she was routinely sailing to and from Latin America so I would tend to put her in the bin of potential reinforcements. Like the Henderson, she is a little small for a medium AP but she's reasonably fast so I'd probably put her in the medium AP bin.
The WW1 ship-building program that the USA had resulted in three large groups of transport vessels: The 502's, the 535's, and Hog Island B's. The 535's have typically translated into Large AP's. The 502's and Hogs are medium AP's. The USA also ended up with title to over a dozen of Germany's best liners. These four pools of ships add up to something around 40 potential transports in addition to ordinary civilian construction and some specialty construction like the Henderson. This web site has really good information on the US construction and it's not a garage operation. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/sealift-ww1.htm
I haven't been too keen on making too many modifications to the AP classes, though certainly that is a potential approach. The overwhelming majority of the ships tend to fit pretty closely with the three types in WPO to begin with. There are some small fast liners in the high teens by way of speed and then the big first rate liners.
Consequently, I've been using the following decision rules on dispacement:
Large AP: 12,000 gross tons and up
Medium AP: 8000 to 12000 gross tons
Small AP: Under 8000 gross tons
Speed also plays a role. The Henderson, for example, is a little small for a Medium AP but her speed fits the medium AP, so I've bumped her up to a medium AP. 14 knot ships tend to be Medium AP's, 16 knot ships get an edge for being large APs if their dispacement is close.
Call me a glutton for punishment but this sort of research is something that I enjoy.[8|]
Do you have Excel? Right now I've got one sheet of ship data with lines that each vessel was associated with and the general area of operation (North Atlantic, Pacific, Latin America). My 1922 sheet is pretty far along, and my late scenario sheet needs work for mergers and acquisition between 1922 and 1926 (as well as deleting several vessels lost or scrapped in the meantime). When I'm a bit further along I can send you a PM with it as an attachment. My thought here was to create a .PDF for posting in the forum so the column headings and such are pretty straight forward.
I had missed the Oriziba. Her capsule history is here: http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/descriptions/ShipsO.html (Scroll down). In the 1920's she was routinely sailing to and from Latin America so I would tend to put her in the bin of potential reinforcements. Like the Henderson, she is a little small for a medium AP but she's reasonably fast so I'd probably put her in the medium AP bin.
The WW1 ship-building program that the USA had resulted in three large groups of transport vessels: The 502's, the 535's, and Hog Island B's. The 535's have typically translated into Large AP's. The 502's and Hogs are medium AP's. The USA also ended up with title to over a dozen of Germany's best liners. These four pools of ships add up to something around 40 potential transports in addition to ordinary civilian construction and some specialty construction like the Henderson. This web site has really good information on the US construction and it's not a garage operation. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/sealift-ww1.htm
I haven't been too keen on making too many modifications to the AP classes, though certainly that is a potential approach. The overwhelming majority of the ships tend to fit pretty closely with the three types in WPO to begin with. There are some small fast liners in the high teens by way of speed and then the big first rate liners.
Consequently, I've been using the following decision rules on dispacement:
Large AP: 12,000 gross tons and up
Medium AP: 8000 to 12000 gross tons
Small AP: Under 8000 gross tons
Speed also plays a role. The Henderson, for example, is a little small for a Medium AP but her speed fits the medium AP, so I've bumped her up to a medium AP. 14 knot ships tend to be Medium AP's, 16 knot ships get an edge for being large APs if their dispacement is close.
Call me a glutton for punishment but this sort of research is something that I enjoy.[8|]
RE: WITP AP's? - Interim update
Yes I do...
Nice work I'm sure the forum can't wait to see the final result of your work.
Nice work
I'm sure the forum can't wait to see the final result of your work.RE: WITP AP's? - Late Scenario Update
Well, here's a lot of data and my recommendations.
10/10 Update: I've been studying the editor and think I can upload my original Excel now. Appropriate changes to the text.
First, the merchant gun idea: In what looks likea WITP holdover, there are device categories for surface search and air search radar. I would suggest that main and secondary fire control directors serve a similar function and greatly enhance the accuracy of gunfire. The directors are "built in" to the accuracy and range assumptions on the gun devices. Merchant ships had strictly local fire control from the weapon (much like a warship would employ if a critical hit disabled her directors, but even then, capital ships had significant range finding built in to the individual turrets). So I've created generic merchant ship weapons that have reduced range and accuracy that abstracts out that fire control factor. One could legimately argue that individual national lists of this kind of gun could be created, but I've chosen simplicity over detail in this case. See the NEW DEVICES sheet of the attached Excel.
I've made the assessment here that civilian ships taken up for military use get a minimum amount of yard time before being used in the military role. Some machine guns, getting rid of potted plants, and only the most egregious fire hazards are remedied. The Upgraded AP has more berths for troops, gun tubs for secondary armament, extra machine guns, etc. This gives them greater troop carrying capacity as well as better armament and improved durability. See the NEW CLASSES sheet of the attached Excel.
The ships will have some guns and MG's. The WW2 AA armament of these ships rivalled 1920s vintage capital ships, so I've been pretty stingy with guns on the smaller AP's. The liners and superliners have similar armament to their WW1 troopship configurations except that they have dual purpose guns instead of naval guns. See the CLASS WEAPONS sheet of the attached Excel.
BTW, I've checked the 1.205 scenario files so these weapon and class id's are clear.
The tally of the ships is the next one. I verified that many of the AP's later in the ship list roster were actually tankers. In some cases, I was only able to verify that the given ship was a WW2 troopship and don't have the details on its size and capacity. In those cases, I defaulted and presumed the game data was good enough. A number of ships were WW2 construction, but in a WPO universe, troops ships would still be built following the declaration of war so I just treated those as that wartime construction. Military transports and the wartime construction get introduced to the game as upgraded AP's. The ships hastily taken up for military duty are not upgraded. I've added quite a few new AP's to make up for the tankers that were taken away. Also, one AP turned out to be a sub tender (USS Camden, AS-6). There were two ships that I was unable to run down, the De Harmon and the De Darby. I've substituted small AP wartime construction for them. The new ships also fit into a free ship ID slots. I've scattered some of the merchants taken up at various ports across the Pacific to simulate that they were en-route to and from their civilian ports of call at the outbreak of hostilities. See the LATE SCENARIO US AP sheet for the details.
A broader point is that with no war in Europe, the USA would be able to deluge the Pacific with all of its effort in WPO. At the risk of unbalancing the game, that would mean even more late reinforcements (last 2 1/2 years of the scenario) for the Allies. The UK and USA outbuilt Japanese merchant shipping 10:1 in WW2, with no U-boat offensive in the Atlantic, there no reason to suppose that this superiority wouldn't eventually tell in the Pacific of WPO. I did do a bit of this by adding some historical passenger ship construction to the late game reinforcements. However, if you look at the 1926 AP DATA BASE (which is still quite incomplete) sheet you can see that I left a number of vessels out of the OOB. Transportation to and from Europe and Latin America still needed to take place so every hull could not be taken into naval service for WPO.
Hmmm, now my network is killing the pop up window for loading the Excel. Arrgh!![/b] Data is still available via PM.
10/10 Update: I've been studying the editor and think I can upload my original Excel now. Appropriate changes to the text.
First, the merchant gun idea: In what looks likea WITP holdover, there are device categories for surface search and air search radar. I would suggest that main and secondary fire control directors serve a similar function and greatly enhance the accuracy of gunfire. The directors are "built in" to the accuracy and range assumptions on the gun devices. Merchant ships had strictly local fire control from the weapon (much like a warship would employ if a critical hit disabled her directors, but even then, capital ships had significant range finding built in to the individual turrets). So I've created generic merchant ship weapons that have reduced range and accuracy that abstracts out that fire control factor. One could legimately argue that individual national lists of this kind of gun could be created, but I've chosen simplicity over detail in this case. See the NEW DEVICES sheet of the attached Excel.
I've made the assessment here that civilian ships taken up for military use get a minimum amount of yard time before being used in the military role. Some machine guns, getting rid of potted plants, and only the most egregious fire hazards are remedied. The Upgraded AP has more berths for troops, gun tubs for secondary armament, extra machine guns, etc. This gives them greater troop carrying capacity as well as better armament and improved durability. See the NEW CLASSES sheet of the attached Excel.
The ships will have some guns and MG's. The WW2 AA armament of these ships rivalled 1920s vintage capital ships, so I've been pretty stingy with guns on the smaller AP's. The liners and superliners have similar armament to their WW1 troopship configurations except that they have dual purpose guns instead of naval guns. See the CLASS WEAPONS sheet of the attached Excel.
BTW, I've checked the 1.205 scenario files so these weapon and class id's are clear.
The tally of the ships is the next one. I verified that many of the AP's later in the ship list roster were actually tankers. In some cases, I was only able to verify that the given ship was a WW2 troopship and don't have the details on its size and capacity. In those cases, I defaulted and presumed the game data was good enough. A number of ships were WW2 construction, but in a WPO universe, troops ships would still be built following the declaration of war so I just treated those as that wartime construction. Military transports and the wartime construction get introduced to the game as upgraded AP's. The ships hastily taken up for military duty are not upgraded. I've added quite a few new AP's to make up for the tankers that were taken away. Also, one AP turned out to be a sub tender (USS Camden, AS-6). There were two ships that I was unable to run down, the De Harmon and the De Darby. I've substituted small AP wartime construction for them. The new ships also fit into a free ship ID slots. I've scattered some of the merchants taken up at various ports across the Pacific to simulate that they were en-route to and from their civilian ports of call at the outbreak of hostilities. See the LATE SCENARIO US AP sheet for the details.
A broader point is that with no war in Europe, the USA would be able to deluge the Pacific with all of its effort in WPO. At the risk of unbalancing the game, that would mean even more late reinforcements (last 2 1/2 years of the scenario) for the Allies. The UK and USA outbuilt Japanese merchant shipping 10:1 in WW2, with no U-boat offensive in the Atlantic, there no reason to suppose that this superiority wouldn't eventually tell in the Pacific of WPO. I did do a bit of this by adding some historical passenger ship construction to the late game reinforcements. However, if you look at the 1926 AP DATA BASE (which is still quite incomplete) sheet you can see that I left a number of vessels out of the OOB. Transportation to and from Europe and Latin America still needed to take place so every hull could not be taken into naval service for WPO.
Hmmm, now my network is killing the pop up window for loading the Excel. Arrgh!![/b] Data is still available via PM.
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- new devices.jpg (58.53 KiB) Viewed 368 times
RE: WITP AP's? - Late Scenario Update
This attachment is a .jpg with the device data.
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- new devices.jpg (58.53 KiB) Viewed 367 times
RE: WITP AP's? - Late Scenario Update
Here is the new class data. Again with a .jpg attachment
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- new classes.jpg (129.88 KiB) Viewed 368 times
RE: WITP AP's? - Late Scenario Update
Class Weapons Data: Here is the armament for the AP's. The non-upgraded ships get a few machine guns, and the upgraded ships get the full kit. The attachment is a .jpg.
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- class weapons.jpg (97.78 KiB) Viewed 367 times
RE: WITP AP's? - Late Scenario Update
Ok, the actual US AP list will have to be split into at least 4 and perhaps five segments to fit under the 200k file size on the tool. So bear with me as these get posted.
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- latescenUSAP1.jpg (190.74 KiB) Viewed 367 times
RE: WITP AP's? - Late Scenario Update
Here is part 2.
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- latescenUSAP2.jpg (186.24 KiB) Viewed 367 times
RE: WITP AP's? - Late Scenario Update
Here is part 3.
One comment on the Camden (AS-6). In the early scenario she was with the Pacific Fleet and would start in Los Angeles. In the late scenarios she was assigned to the Atlantic Fleet so there is a lag before she redeploys to the theater.
One comment on the Camden (AS-6). In the early scenario she was with the Pacific Fleet and would start in Los Angeles. In the late scenarios she was assigned to the Atlantic Fleet so there is a lag before she redeploys to the theater.
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- latescenUSAP3.jpg (182.29 KiB) Viewed 367 times
RE: WITP AP's? - Late Scenario Update
Here is part 4. Ships #5410 and higher are replacement vessels taken from the historical stock of shipping to replace the many tankers that were mis-identified as AP's.
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- latescenUSAP4.jpg (185.21 KiB) Viewed 367 times
RE: WITP AP's? - Late Scenario Update
Finally, Part 5.
Changes for the early scenarios: Some of the late-game historical new construction obviously disappears since the scenario ends before they were launched. A few of the ships listed also would have delayed entry since they weren't available at the outset of the game (like the Alaska, launched in 1923). A few of the older WW1 veteran liners that were scrapped would still be afloat and available for use like the Von Stuben, the City of New York, and the Philadelphia. Finally, due to corporate mergers and acquisitions different ships were in different places and that might adjust who was availabe at the outset of hostilities versus coming in as a reinforcement. Over the next few days I'll be tweaking a similar Excel table for the early scenarios.
Changes for the early scenarios: Some of the late-game historical new construction obviously disappears since the scenario ends before they were launched. A few of the ships listed also would have delayed entry since they weren't available at the outset of the game (like the Alaska, launched in 1923). A few of the older WW1 veteran liners that were scrapped would still be afloat and available for use like the Von Stuben, the City of New York, and the Philadelphia. Finally, due to corporate mergers and acquisitions different ships were in different places and that might adjust who was availabe at the outset of hostilities versus coming in as a reinforcement. Over the next few days I'll be tweaking a similar Excel table for the early scenarios.
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- latescenUSAP5.jpg (100.11 KiB) Viewed 367 times