Why am I not buying COTA?

[barbarossa2]

Why am I not buying COTA?

Good question. One I ask myself every day.

Just some background: I am 39. Was introduced to gaming with Squad Leader. Collected about 100 board games. Sold them all a few years ago for lack of opponents. Was always into operational/strategic level hexagonal games because it "felt right" to be taking two hours to execute a turn which might represent 3 months. I never liked games which took 2 hours of work to simulate 5 minutes of combat. TOO WEIRD.

I was completely, 100% HOOKED with HTTR. As I played my first few games, I thought, MY GOD, I WASTED 20 YEARS OF MY LIFE PLAYING GAMES WHICH COULD ONLY APPROXIMATE THIS EXPERIENCE. I played and played. I submitted suggestions in the Forum. When I heard about COTA, I ached for it. I KNEW I would buy it as soon as it hit the shelves.

A few months after its release...why have I not bought it?

-Perhaps because of its limited scope. But I was excited to see PG deal with something relatively obscure. My grandfather fought for the Germans, and I always thought something that DIDN'T have Americans in it would be cool. Was also pretty sick of Russian Front titles.
-Perhaps because I have been lulled into "repeated disappointment mode" by the computer wargaming industry. Why? because I can BET that it will take two or three patches to work out the bugs/design issues 90% of people are complaining about. So I wait... and wait.
-Perhaps because there is no scenario designer (easy to use) that I know of (yes, there MAY be one...but I do not KNOW about it. This is a CRUCIAL difference in the marketing world).
-Perhaps because some of my biggest pet peaves in the play of HTTR may not have been fixed (mostly an "execute at 0600 hours" command, so I could get units to do things simultaneously...again, this may have been corrected. I do not know.
-Perhaps because I KNOW that by the NEXT release, it will be an EVEN BETTER GAME, and I will have LESS to be dissapointed about.
-Perhaps because, in SPITE of the fact that I might SAY that I am sick of eastern front titles, I really, really DID want a Kursk game. Or Stalingrad game. Something that FEELS Massive in my brain.

I do know that PG is developing what I consider to be one of the best gaming experiences out there (for gamers who want realistic feeling war games). I DO know that it is actually my duty to buy COTA, so that Panther is around in 10 years cranking out the fest f&%king games on the planet, and I see our investment at this point in a "half assed" version of what will be around in 10 years, as a required stepping stone. It is everybody's duty to do this.

But I have still not pulled out my credit card, and when I tell my friends about these games, they tend to buy as well. I am what one could call a heavy advertiser for products I love. For example, the other game I am partial to is "Medieval 2: Total War". I immediately downloaded the demo as soon as it was available, played it, and they have me hooked. I did screenshots, and had it out to 10 friends on the next day. AND told them where to download a killer FREE gaming experience. I do not know if they will buy. But one just announced he will upgrade his graphics card to do so after seeing the screen shots.

Perhaps a demo would be a good idea. I do not know.

But those are my two cents.

Would like to rejoin the COTA community. Looking for a reason,

Bitchin' game system. [;)]

-Chris

P.S. Arjuna, I am staying with some Hindu friends and learning a lot about their faith. Arjuna was Krishna's chariot driver. Did you choose that name for a reason?

[barbarossa2]

I just read someone else's thoughts on graphics.

Having "grown up" on two D hexagonal grids (a la TOAW), and half inch cardboard chits, I am personally not someone who wants or "needs" 3D glorified, bloody, killing. BUT...BUT... I do think that if I have to choose where my dollars flow, it helps if a game has this. For instance... "Medieval 2: Total War." It could be a medieval tactical simulation. Hexagonal. But I have NEVER purchased a hexagonal, top down, medieval 2D wargame and there have been many that have been produced. I DID buy a kick ass, 3D, blood and guts, Medieval Combat simulator. And I PUSH it to my friends. Because it is FUN to push it to them. I LOVE doing screenshots of my victory over the French...or English. Or whatever. And sending them around the world. Word of mouth is ridiculously important.

No. Grognards do not need this. But grognards MAY represent 0,01% of the western world. The REST of the world... what would take this game over the top...and into LARGE sales...I believe...the REST of the world, loves to see tanks rolling into towns, taking hits, and seeing infantry scurrying for cover.

I do not know if this is even GOOD for AA. I for one would probably vote against it, if using my rational brain. But if I could program my own scenarios, play them, and then WATCH THE REPLAY up close with tanks and troops running around...this game would have been sold and running on my computer a long time ago.

Thanks!

[Arjuna]

OK I'll copy my response here too then. [:)]
 

ORIGINAL:  barbarossa2
-Perhaps because of its limited scope.  But I was excited to see PG deal with something relatively obscure.  My grandfather fought for the Germans, and I always thought something that DIDN'T have Americans in it would be cool.  Was also pretty sick of Russian Front titles.

Within most theatres of WW2 operational commanders faced a gamut of situations and challenges. Those in Greece, Crete and Malta certainly did. COTA covers the full gamut of offensive and defensive operations, from set piece attacks to delaying defence, from Divisional sized raids on enemy communication lines to airborne coup de mains. And the terrain couldn't be more varied from the incredible steep and rugged mountains of Greece to the relatively flat open terrain of Malta.

-Perhaps because I have been lulled into "repeated disappointment mode" by the computer wargaming industry.  Why?  because I can BET that it will take two or three patches to work out the bugs/design issues 90% of people are complaining about.  So I wait... and wait.

And this is different from the general games market? I don't think so. This will be with us forever. With the level of sophistication that we now have in software games comes complexity of code and development. Even with an excellent beta testing regime, their capacity to find all nuances and combinations is limited. So it's invariable that when the product is released and more people play that things will be uncovered and that need to be patched.
The real question is the extent and impact of the bugs needing to be addressed and the resolve of the development staff to fix them. Patch 1 is out. We discovered this week that we still have a bug affecting air droped supplies. This has been fixed and a new patch 2 should be issued soon. But in any event it only affects a few scenarios where supplies are delivered by air. Otherwise the game is very solid.

-Perhaps because there is no scenario designer (easy to use) that I know of (yes, there MAY be one...but I do not KNOW about it.  This is a CRUCIAL difference in the marketing world).

Hey you already have HTTR, so check out the MapMaker and ScenMaker in it. Yes we have made improvements but they are a pretty good demo for them.

-Perhaps because some of my biggest pet peaves in the play of HTTR may not have been fixed (mostly an "execute at 0600 hours" command, so I could get units to do things simultaneously...again, this may have been corrected.  I do not know.

No we have not implemented this particular feature, but we did address dozens of other features for COTA - check out the What's New thread for the very long list.

-Perhaps because I KNOW that by the NEXT release, it will be an EVEN BETTER GAME, and I will have LESS to be dissapointed about.

Tell me, they say we get better at sex the older we get, so should I abstain till I'm 70, when it will be soooo perfect. I don't think so. [;)]

-Perhaps because, in SPITE of the fact that I might SAY that I am sick of eastern front titles, I really, really DID want a Kursk game.  Or Stalingrad game.  Something that FEELS Massive in my brain.

The ability of the game engine to model large battles like Kursk is directly dependent on the power of the computer. For HTTR we had a max map size of 30 x 30 kms. For COTA this has increased to 40 x 50. It will be sometime before we can cope with something like the entire battle of Kursk. For BFTB we have produced a swag of maps covering the entire Bulge battle area but computers still have a way to go before we can handle it all on one map.
But in any event, if you are playing a Div commander for instance your area of operations is usually limited to a 20-30km front.
Our East Front Data Design Team ( DDT ) is currently working on Red Star Rising which will cover the psot Stalingrad battles along the Chir River. It's coming.

I do know that PG is developing what I consider to be one of the best gaming experiences out there (for gamers who want realistic feeling war games).  I DO know that it is actually my duty to buy COTA, so that Panther is around in 10 years cranking out the fest f&%king games on the planet, and I see our investment at this point in a "half assed" version of what will be around in 10 years, as a required stepping stone.  It is everybody's duty to do this.
But I have still not pulled out my credit card, and when I tell my friends about these games, they tend to buy as well.  I am what one could call a heavy advertiser for products I love.  For example, the other game I am partial to is "Medieval 2: Total War".  I immediately downloaded the demo as soon as it was available, played it, and they have me hooked.  I did screenshots, and had it out to 10 friends on the next day.  AND told them where to download a killer FREE gaming experience.  I do not know if they will buy.  But one just announced he will upgrade his graphics card to do so after seeing the screen shots.
Perhaps a demo would be a good idea.  I do not know.

You already own HTTR which you say you love. What more do you need?

But those are my two cents.

Much appreciated.

Would like to rejoin the COTA community.  Looking for a reason,

You would put a smile on code warrior's face! [:)]
Or as Krishna said to Arjuna on the eve of the great battle, of all the virtues the greatest is courage. Courage is needed to make the leap of faith on which our great journey begins.

[Llyranor]

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2
I was completely, 100% HOOKED with HTTR. As I played my first few games, I thought, MY GOD, I WASTED 20 YEARS OF MY LIFE PLAYING GAMES WHICH COULD ONLY APPROXIMATE THIS EXPERIENCE. I played and played.

I'd think this is the best justification to support this game. By supporting the game, you're helping the devs keep the series alive; a one-of-its-kind series. It's a niche title; they don't sell much - the devs need all the support they can get, especially from players who love the type of experience the series provides. Not to mention, of course, getting a whole new game, with new scenarios, and getting more of that gaming goodness.

This is even before going into the new gameplay/interface features, which others can go more in depth about.

[Vanguard]

Barbarossa2, mate, my advice is to buy COTA now.

I have a very similar background to you and I thought HTTR was great, but wasn't convinced that COTA was for me. The main reason for me was 1)Greece and Crete didn't interest me - a bit of a backwater 2) Waiting for Battles of the Bulge, which after playing the Bastogne mod for HTTR, I couldn't wait for.

I came to this site every now and again, but never quite came to ordering. I had a bit of leave a couple of weeks ago and thought 'what the hell, I'll buy it'. Mate, I haven't looked back - it is a really interesting theatre, more than I ever imagined, that forces you to use much more military doctrine than HTTR ever did - eg fighting withdrawls and big armour breakthroughs. Man, Crete is an intense fight for either the Brits or Germans. The supply element adds a whole new element to the game.

I, too like massive engagements - Normandy, Kursk, Stalingrad, Market Garden, but to me COTA is definately an improvement on an already great HTTR.[:)]

[JudgeDredd]

I would highly, highly recommend it. I haven't yet had a wargaming experience like it.
 
I didn't buy HTTR because COTA was round the corner...turns out it was WAYYYYY round the corner and I could've had many good games with HTTR. No matter, once I started reading about COTA, even the enhancements were losing their appeal....why? Because I was so not interested in the region.
 
I had decided to wait for BftB. But I hummed, and hahed and eventually decided to support PG in their quest to provide entertainment and bought it and I am absolutely thrilled with the product. It truly is a great experience and the AI seems very, very capable...attacking here, flanking there....it's all in this game.
 
The best £30 I spent on a game in a long time. BftB is definitely on my get list are as all the follow ons.
 
As for the region, it is fantastic. I was really not interested in it, but the scenarios are and absolute pleasure to play.
 
Seems to me, with the engine and the thought that goes into scenario design, there isn't a region I wouldn't be interested in if it has the AA branding!!
 
As for scenario making, I wouldn't say it's easy peasy lemon squeezy...but the tools provided are fairly simple to grasp and reading through the documentation for them you will have a scenario up and running in no time...and the more you do, the easier it becomes.
 
Note to Dave
One problem I am coming across is playtesting. I've designed a scenario and I would like to get a feel for how it plays out. Unfortunately, I don't really have the time to play test them time and time again, from both sides to determine what needs to be done to tweak it. Second, there is no point in asking people to playtest. They don't want to...they want to play the finished product and second, I don't really want to put out a half bakes scenario.
 
So scenario creating could do with an AI v AI to see if it balanced (or at least give a guide to balance)
 
Just what I've come across!

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

For HTTR we had a max map size of 30 x 30 kms. For COTA this has increased to 40 x 50.

Hmmm...HTTR's map maker allows map sizes of 20 x 40 km, 19.968 m x 40000 m to be exact, right?
COTA's map maker would allow 40000 m x 49984 m. [:D]

[Arjuna]

GoodGuy,
 
Sprung! Nice catch. [:)]

[Arjuna]

Billy,
 
You would be surprised just how many people would test your new scenario. Don't be bashful. Just ask.
 
OK who wants to help Billy test his new scenario? Please reply here.

[JudgeDredd]

Dave
 
I did notice a link to the wargamers forum in the forums above, so I will post it over there. Perhaps there will be some takers.
 
It still needs a little bit of tweaking before I'm ready to have it tested (as a developer you know....when is EVER the right time) and I have to write the scenario brief, change commander attributes, and biogs etc...
 
In general, it is ready for testing, but it's the bare bones scenario (forces, objectives, time scales)...there is no "fleshing out" like unit/commander biogs and I'd like to modify reinforcement schedules for favour allies/axis etc....but as far as playable goes, it is....I just need people to play it from both sides and tell me if it's balanced, while that is going on I could do the fleshing out bit.

[Sturmovik]

Or as Krishna said to Arjuna on the eve of the great battle, of all the virtues the greatest is courage. Courage is needed to make the leap of faith on which our great journey begins.

No doubt your are the chosen one [&o]

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: barbarossa2
I do know that PG is developing what I consider to be one of the best gaming experiences out there (for gamers who want realistic feeling war games). I DO know that it is actually my duty to buy COTA, so that Panther is around in 10 years cranking out the fest f&%king games on the planet, and I see our investment at this point in a "half assed" version of what will be around in 10 years, as a required stepping stone. It is everybody's duty to do this.

This is a very contradictionary statement! No one has a duty to buy anything. It´s one of the good things with democratic capitalism (and it has flaws too, so don´t get me wrong here). On the other hand, you state that you consider PG to develop the best games in its genre. Why would COTA be an exception? Does PG have a track record of evil bugs in the released products. The answer is no to both questions. Will COTA look like a "half assed" computer game in 10 years compared to what will be around then? I don´t know, but development has a way of making old things look really funny in retrospect, but it has nothing to do with what´s sold today. I can provide many examples of this, but in no case did the customers of the so called half ass products make a purchase to support something 10 years down the line! I´d say COTA is state of the art as it looks today. It has no game killer bugs and it is educational in the sense it´s focused on a (from a gaming standpoint) forgotten theatre. I have bought at least one book on the Crete campaign after beta testing and playing the current version of the game. Does it have bugs? Can it be improved? Is Arjuna and the others at PG working hard to do that? I think you know the answer

Buy the game, not because it´s your duty, not as an investment, but because it´s one of the best wargames out there.....

[JudgeDredd]

Widell

First off, I think he was saying it's his duty and referring to the fact that the game is great, the developers are great and that *tongue in cheek* it's his duty to support this...not that he was having his arm twisted. Secondly, it did have a show stopping bug...the supply bug which prevented me picking the game up for over a month. That's not to say it happened in all scenarios, but I wasn't privvy to the scenarios is was prevalaint in and so did not want to start any more scenarios in case I got it and CTD'd again.

So you took his point of "his duty" as too literal (which he clearly meant as a compliment) and were incorrect in the other statement. Alot of the rest you said made sense, though! [;)]

[Widell]

[;)] Sometimes it´s fun to take things literally you know, and the bug was fixed no? Well, language is hard, and communication even harder...

[JudgeDredd]

Yes, the bug was fixed....and a good job too, means I can get back to playing.

As for the language thing? Your language is fine, m8....about 3000% better than my Swedish.

And as I said, everything else you said was spot on! [&o]

[barbarossa2]

Thanks Judge Dredd... Widell, he nailed it. No, I am not having my arm twisted...I consider it my patriotic duty to the future of wargaming to invest my $40 in it. And because it is a good game, I am sure I will enjoy it. But I KNOW I will get frustrated with the coordinated attack thing, and start pulling my hair out, and then start gnawing my leg off. And then hope it will be fixed by BFTB.

[BAL]

I grew up playing hex/turn based operational wargames.  Still do play them a lot PBEM.  Also play HttR & COTA a lot.  They're easy to play so I have no problem switching from one system to another.  Well researched & gives a good feel for what situations the actual commanders faced - such as coordinating attacks as you mention.