Bridge bombing and AA fire

[Telumar]

I am so happy that AA fire works now in toaw3, BUT:

Does Anti Aircraft equipment fire on airplanes that try to bomb the bridge it sits on? It should, though i have discovered the following:

I am playing a scenario as player 2, my opponent has begun a bridge bombing campaign and has just blown the bridge in his turn that has been guarded by the following unit (see pic).
So, assuming the guns in the unit fire on the attacker i shouldn't have 150% supply, even if i sit there for a while now, or should i? Remember, i am player two and he blew the bridge in his turn 8, the pic is from my turn 8, so there has been no supply calculation in-between.
Or am i generally wrong and a Flak unit (or anti air equipment) sitting on a bridge hex just lowers the percentage of success for the attacking airplanes?



Edit: Sorry, german It's all there: readiness (Bereitschaft) 100%, supply (Nachschub) 150% - these guns didn't fire a single piece of ammo!

[nemo69]

I don't have a ready answer, but it could probably be tested by reproducing the situation you describe and running the test scenario with the toawlog command-line switch on. It should tell you whether the Flak units fire or not.

Zu spät für mich, jetzt gehe ich schlafen [;)]

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

I don't have a ready answer, but it could probably be tested by reproducing the situation you describe and running the test scenario with the toawlog command-line switch on. It should tell you whether the Flak units fire or not.

Zu spät für mich, jetzt gehe ich schlafen [;)]

Yeah, i could do it tomorrow evening and post the results here if no Janiam pops up until then.

Je vais dormir aussi, bonne nuit!

[SMK-at-work]

Does flak fire use up ammo/supply?
 
 

[nemo69]

I've ran a quick test this morning. Setting up bridge attacks by two air groups (B-24 and P-47) against a bridge defended by a Flak regiment has the following results:

• Flak does indeed fire at attacking aircraft
• Air groups suffer losses, with aircraft sent to the On Hand pool or total write-offs;
• Air groups see their supply level decline with each attack they make;
• The AA unit on the other hand still shows 150% supply (its initial level after first round is completed (i.e. before the bookkeeping phase) - no supply is actually consumed despite the shooting.

I've attached the toaw_log file showing the actual combat calculations for one of the tests.

[nemo69]

Can't attach the test scenario, even in a zip archive. I'll send it on request if anyone wants to assess its validity.

[Telumar]

Ah, you've beaten me. My scenario was just ready.. nevermind. Thank you Nemo, so it works, it just doesn't swallow supply.

Ouch treshold...love that one...[:D]

[nemo69]

ORIGINAL: Telumar
[...] so it works, it just doesn't swallow supply.

The latter part is a problem as I can't fathom any reason why it shouldn't.

Ouch treshold...love that one...[:D]

Indeed - the toawlog is quite cryptic [:D]

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

ORIGINAL: Telumar
[...] so it works, it just doesn't swallow supply.

The latter part is a problem as I can't fathom any reason why it shouldn't.

Ouch treshold...love that one...[:D]

Indeed - the toawlog is quite cryptic [:D]

Of course. It's necessary to preserve the secrets of the priesthood...[:D]

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Nemo69

ORIGINAL: Telumar
[...] so it works, it just doesn't swallow supply.

The latter part is a problem as I can't fathom any reason why it shouldn't.

Ouch treshold...love that one...[:D]

Indeed - the toawlog is quite cryptic [:D]

Of course. It's necessary to preserve the secrets of the priesthood...[:D]

Damned freemasons![;)]

So, James, no comment about that all, i mean no supply drain of the AA unit? I think as long as they fire they should use some supply.

Btw, i can't see any hint on the percentage chance of the bridge to be destroyed or something similar in the log file.

[FaneFlugt]

*Faneflugt opens attachment. gets a brain meltdown[X(]*

[nemo69]

You can safely ignore the bitmap loading and unloading parts at both ends of the file - I could have cut them but I got lazy. The juicy part is right in the middle and it's relatively short as the scenario was extremely simple in this case with only one round of simple attacks. Imagine the resulting log when you have several rounds in a turn with attacks by the dozens [X(]

EDIT: Pong rules!

[JAMiAM]

ORIGINAL: Telumar
So, James, no comment about that all, i mean no supply drain of the AA unit? I think as long as they fire they should use some supply.

I agree.

ORIGINAL: Telumar
Btw, i can't see any hint on the percentage chance of the bridge to be destroyed or something similar in the log file.

Not really needed for the toawlog, since it is already displayed, piecemeal, when you assign the aircraft to the mission. Remember that the probability displayed in the dialog is only for the unit being currently assigned. Contrary to other tasks, like engineering for example, Bridge Blowing is additive, in that the percentages of the individual aircraft is added together for a total probability of success. So...in short, add 'em up!

Of course, the percentages that are displayed, assume the aircraft are unopposed by flak or enemy interception. Since bridge-blowing attacks always only take one tactical round, it is a good idea to set your bombers on ignore losses for these types of attacks, so that they actually stick around to hit the bridge.

[Telumar]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Telumar
So, James, no comment about that all, i mean no supply drain of the AA unit? I think as long as they fire they should use some supply.

I agree.

So i suppose we will see it in a future patch then.

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Telumar
Btw, i can't see any hint on the percentage chance of the bridge to be destroyed or something similar in the log file.

Not really needed for the toawlog, since it is already displayed, piecemeal, when you assign the aircraft to the mission. Remember that the probability displayed in the dialog is only for the unit being currently assigned. Contrary to other tasks, like engineering for example, Bridge Blowing is additive, in that the percentages of the individual aircraft is added together for a total probability of success. So...in short, add 'em up!

That was clear to me. Hope everyone gets it also.

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
[...]Since bridge-blowing attacks always only take one tactical round, it is a good idea to set your bombers on ignore losses for these types of attacks, so that they actually stick around to hit the bridge.

[/quote]

Again learned something new, until now i have always ordered them at minimize losses. Maybe this should be mentioned in the manual, maybe also in a future patch.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

ORIGINAL: Telumar
So, James, no comment about that all, i mean no supply drain of the AA unit? I think as long as they fire they should use some supply.

I agree.

I'm not so sure. There are other combat actions that don't warrant the expenditure of supply. Air units on AS don't expend any. They only expend supply if placed on CS (Interdiction?? I don't know). So, a few MG bullets don't rate supply cost, whereas bombs do. Norm may have had the same rationale for AAA as for AS.

[golden delicious]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'm not so sure. There are other combat actions that don't warrant the expenditure of supply. Air units on AS don't expend any. They only expend supply if placed on CS (Interdiction?? I don't know). So, a few MG bullets don't rate supply cost, whereas bombs do. Norm may have had the same rationale for AAA as for AS.

Or he may just have overlooked both.