Wake Island historical move

Sailor Malan · Post by **Sailor Malan** » Fri Oct 06, 2000 11:31 pm

I have only tried a couple of times (new here etc.) but have noticed that the Japanese don't land on Wake first turn (historical), likr they used to, and should. Anyone else seen this?

moore4807 · Post by **moore4807** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 12:01 am

Just try to reinforce Wake or Midway and see what happens... <grin>
Happy hunting-if you are NOT the US in 42-43...if you are duck-n-weave like a boxer vs Joe Louis!

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 12:13 am

They still try in my games but if you don't have delay on they get back on their boat so fast you may miss it.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 12:27 am

The first attempt at Wake Island resuted in the force retreating before any troops landed, because of the Wake costal defences. To represent this, I changed the Wake TF's into Bombardment groups (to simulate the impossibility of making the landing with the meagre forces avalible).

Since no SNLF or SBF troops were killed in the original operation I felt having them land would be improper. Instead they just soften up Wake for another run at it later.

Jeremy

Sailor Malan · Post by **Sailor Malan** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 1:42 am

Originally posted by Major Tom:
The first attempt at Wake Island resuted in the force retreating before any troops landed, because of the Wake costal defences. To represent this, I changed the Wake TF's into Bombardment groups (to simulate the impossibility of making the landing with the meagre forces avalible).

Since no SNLF or SBF troops were killed in the original operation I felt having them land would be improper. Instead they just soften up Wake for another run at it later.

Jeremy

Thanks - makes sense. I just enjoyed the landing getting smegged. Anyone ever see it taken? (old version)

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 1:52 am

I have a few times, all that really counts is the first few turns. If the IJN SNLF formation can get lucky and attack with a lot of troops, and the USMC Battalion get unlucky and have less troops respond to the battle the USMC falls pretty easily.

Although this only happened for 1 in 10 games.

Jeremy

moore4807 · Post by **moore4807** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 1:55 am

Major Tom n Mogami,
Have either of you tried on the first US turn to reinforce Midway and Wake with US troops? I did, (using the 24th Infantry- about half was all I could fit on available transport...)next thing I know Ive got 2 Jap divisions landing on Wake from I dont know where! Very short fight and immediate US surrender... did it twice more on trials after reading your posts- both times fleet invasion, 2nd one even threw a Air combat TF in to boot... Can anyone let me know if this is happening to them- will leave em alone if this is the result 8)!

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 5:55 am

Ah now you went and stole one of the few bright spots in the first weeks of the war.
While IJN did not really land they lost a DD and a transport to the Marines (famous "send more Japs" message {they did!!} now Wake just gets shelled and since their coast guns are not in game its good for Japan. I never try to reinforce Wake moore4807 I am too busy trying to help Midway against these early IJN attacks (lost whole 24th def bn and engineer in PBEM game today

) those 3 new inf div in Combined fleet really make things hot early. However I do think early central pacific stratagy is only one that makes sense since all others concede time to US for build up IJN can not hope to stop AI just doesn't have the hang off it. Human players as IJN vrs allied AI will do well I hope I can disprove my own philosphy against current pbem opponent.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited October 06, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited October 06, 2000).]

Bulldog61 · Post by **Bulldog61** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 7:04 am

Mogami I have to disagree with you on the CENPAC stategy early (Dec41) making sense. it's done at the expense of Java, the Phillipines and south Pacific. All the allied player has to do is move the PBY Units to Midway and Johnston. the recon and sigint allows you to be waiting. Don't go toe to toe woth the IJN carrier just pound the pogees out of the transports. When the attacks subsid somewhere between May and July the game is for all purposes won. While a CENPAC and NorthPAC strategy make sense after the resources are secure.
As a side note even if the US had capitulated in the negotiations with Japan prior to 6 DEC 41. The only change to history would have been no attack on PH. The Philipines and point south were still to be taken.

Mike

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 8:00 am

I will send you saved game files that show southern drive being done as well as Cent Pac

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

moore4807 · Post by **moore4807** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 8:11 am

Originally posted by Mogami:
Ah now you went and stole one of the few bright spots in the first weeks of the war.

I hate when I do that!!! <VBG>
Anyway you got me thinking because other than one of the trials I was trying, no IJN ever went near Midway even when I reinforced them- only Wake... (for a total of one out of 4 games, so far...) my current game is in Dec 43, I cant get Rangoon, the AI cant bust Wewak otherwise mopping up everywhere else prepping for more invasions in South Pacific. Chinese Bombers (B-25's)are best I've ever seen (2 groups and 2 P-40N groups holding down 3 bases By Hong Kong...)
Interesting view about CenPac though...I'll have to do a Japan when I finish this one.
Thanks
Jim

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 8:50 am

Hi I wish to be clear on this. In my opinion to win the war Japan has to defeat the US Navy do that and everything else is yours by default fail and everything you grab early will be retaken by a monster you can not hope to defeat. The central pacific will only be open for a limited time so action there early is needed. The IJN will never be as strong nor the US so week (look at the leader pool at start look at pp pool for first 3 or 4 weeks) Surface battles on Midway and/or Johnson should be fought before 1Jan42 So US does not have radar meaning BB's have to leave Tokyo on turn 1 In 3 months central Pacific air bases will be built 4 CV instead of 2. 3 new div plus many air units. If you are going to go at all it must be right at start. Southern drive not prevented 15 and 25th army already where the belong transports for 16th and 14th army on hand. Make sure to capture Palembang fast. But BB's and CV's that would just be sitting or helping take places you could take without them. Without Pearl Harbour US can not effectivly combat IJN leaving everything open I still capture Rabual (am at Espirtu Santo now) If you don't capture Pearl Harbour you are going to lose the war against a human the AI whatever side it controls commits suicide so don't go by it.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited October 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited October 07, 2000).]

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 6:51 pm

My Japanese strategy (simplified for fear my future PBEM opponents might be lurking!) is to hold off offensive actions once the original Japanese defensive perimiter is secured. If you forgo an offensive into the Central Pacific and go on the defensive the American losses trying to penetrate your outer barriers will be tremendous.

Having the 4 extra CV's not lost at Midway will give Japan a Carrier force stronger than the USN until 1943. With such a large force supplimented by CVL's and even CVE's the Americans will be less inclined to try and attack your bases due to fear of large reprisals.

Plus, when on the defensive the IJN can rely on the highly experienced units of the IJNAF (all those A6M and G4M groups around 80 or so experience!). Since the IJAAF forces are useless against ships, keep them in the rear areas guarding against British attacks, and attacks on Japan, Philippines, Netherland East Indies and Malaya. The IJN should place most of its recon force at the outpost barriers so that American moves are all watched closely. The recon against submarine forces can be temporarily removed until the effects are starting to be felt. Use the Ki-46, and E13A's as most of your frontier recon units, since, they do not attack submarines (due to no bomb capapcity, the E13A might have some bombs, but, I don't think they attack subs).

I believe that a smart IJN player can hold off any American invasion by at least a year, possibly even longer. The key to the Japanese is to have their fleet located in a region that can quickly respond to any American attack (in the South Pacific, Central Pacific, Netherland East Indies and the Indian Ocean). When one is on the defensive they are moving around less units and formations, resulting in a general rise of Preparation Points, meaning that they will behave better.

Most of the greatest errors of the Axis during WWII is not to konw when the initiative has shifted to their enemy. The IJN should have stopped before Midway. The Germans should have stopped before Kursk. We do have the benefit of hindsight, and we should use it!

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 7:06 pm

History has proved the side that digs in loses. Against the AI it is a wise policy to wait for it to kill its units in senseless piecemeal attacks. But against a human if you wait your reward will be massive cooridinated attacks at forward areas by trained!!! groups. A war of attrition is lost by IJN the US will and should trade ship for ship, plane for plane (they have more airgroups then they can deploy. The US wins any meatgrinder contest. While the Central Pacific may lose the war early it is the only hope for total victory all efforts should be made for its success. If you have not secured CENPAC by Feb 42 forget it you never will!!!

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited October 07, 2000).]

moore4807 · Post by **moore4807** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 7:11 pm

WOW Pretty different points of view!
I'm finding the IJN to be pretty tough in the SW Pacific (moreso than in actual WWII)
its late 43 and I'm probably pushing things but I want to get to Iwo Jima by early 44- doesnt look hopeful. I am interested by Mogami's kamikaze approach towards the Cenpac area, question I have is doesnt US CV's come rushing out to meet you at PH/Midway? Where do you load invasion fleet from?
As for Major Tom- I do the US version of grab-n-hold in the early stages (Midway/Wake Is.) I found that the Japs tend to ovverreact to Wake as posted earlier, but I then go for Marcus Is. instead (big blowout in 43 IJN/US carrier fight 7 Jap/ 3 US CV/CVLs sunk 4 US BB sunk, surprised 1 IJN CV TF, sunk 3 of 4 CVs before fight started- in turn bombardment fleet got mauled by land based bombers from south (Kwajalein Is.?)and back and forth sinkings from then... Cool fight- kept me in my seat til 3am!
Thank you to both of you for the tactics lesson.
Jim

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 8:36 pm

Hi Moore4807 CENPAC operations first take Wake move fleet and ground units there then take Midway/Johnson Island so inf does not have long ride to Pearl. IJN wants US to come out for fight US CV pilots not trained 1 CV still flying Buffaloes Inf Div not trained and only 5 to divide between Pearl/Midway/Johnson Island and limited transport. Airbase on Midway still a 3 Johnson a 4 Pearl a 8 with surrounding bases 3 (does not matter since US does not have enough airgroups any way plus their PP pool is low and only 2 (Halsey/Spruance decent leaders) If they do not fight you win if they do and you win, the game is yours if you lose you go to defense and wait for bad things but if you can't win early how are you going to win after US has time to train/build up? Most of the map is empty Islands a single SNLF can divide and take so don't need a lot of units to continue southern drive. This is not a Kamikaze approach waiting for the US to become stronger then you and then trying to fight them would be a suicide approach fight them from a postion of strength you are stronger for only a short while. While this debate is interesting the only path to the truth is for
the opposing views to meet on the field of battle. I will be Japan.

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited October 07, 2000).]

Drex · Post by **Drex** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 8:45 pm

Mogami certainly has some basis for his position. In '42 the allies just don't have the assets to cover all the territory nor do I think they can stand toe to toe with any substantial Japanese force. By 1943, the allies have plenty of reinforcement coming in and know they can cover their losses. I just lost a carrier battle with the Japanese (my 5 versus their 8!) but I know I can make that up. Meanwhile I still have plenty of airpower with trained crews. The Japanese must make their move early.

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 10:41 pm

I find that it is really easy for the US forces to set up the Hawaiian Islands as a super-fortress. There are enough SDB, PBY and F4F squadrons to fit out in all of the 3 other Hawaiian Islands, along with a strong USAAF at Pearl Harbor. Also, there are around 5 US Divisions slated for the Central Pacific (24, 25, 27, 31, 42, plus others that soon appear) that can be immediately sent in to counter Japanese advances. Sure, the IJN can secure Wake relatively easily, and Midway and Johnston with slightly more problems, but, anything more in a PBEM game will result in a premature and complete Japanese destruction early in the war.

The 3 possible IJA Divisions cannot cover the same territory that 5+ US Divisions can. You cannot bring up other IJA Divisions without sacrificing the progress on the other fronts. The SNLF formations are highly trained, but, cannot be used for offensive operations very well due to their small size. Plus, the 20th, 41st and 51st Divisions are of fairly low experience, not good for offensive operations.

The loss of the few USN Carriers will only serve to slightly slow the American advance (The Essex's will come to replace them soon) when compared to the loss of any IJN Carriers. The IJN is not strong enough to supress the LBA that the Allied player can throw up around the Hawaiian Islands. Since there are few islands between the mass of the Hawaiian Islands the IJN TF would be without cover of LBA. The USN can afford to take on the IJNAF and IJAAF without Land Based Air cover as they have around 20 CV's to choose from, plus multiple CVL's in 1943 if the IJN Carrier force was slaughtered at a Midway like action. Every USN Carrier sunk will be quickly replaced, every IJN Carrier sunk will be gone forever. It is best to use them wizely and with the most support cover from IJNAF LBA.

I disagree that a defensive Japanese strategy is doomed. Historically when the Japanese went on the defensive they had already lost 50% of their entire carrier force (CVL's and CVE's included). They managed to keep a relative stalemate with the US Forces for approximately a year with this meagre force. Keeping the Carrier Force in reserve in combination with highly experienced LBA the US attack on Guadalcanal on the historical dates would be impossible.

Once the US try to set up a bridgehead (either in the Solomans or Central Pacific) the 6 CV's, 6 CVL's, and 2 CVE's can easily overwealm any aircover the 6 possible USN Carriers can throw up (before any Essex can appear). The IJNAF Carrier Aircraft is also better trained than their USN counterparts early in the war. Even when the Essex class Carriers start to appear the IJN will be albe to stand toe-to-toe against them in quantity and quality until late 1943 to early 1944.

Keeping the IJN in reserve, and keeping the 20th, 41st and 51st Divisions as a fast reaction corps will result in any US attempt in the Central Pacific or South Pacific meeting fierce resistance. Use the SNLF and IJA Regiments as outer garrison forces to delay any American sucessful landing until the reaction force can arrive. Guadalcanal failed for the Japanese beacuse they had no large forces to counter the Americans.

The main reason that the landing on Guadalcanal suceeded, or was even launched, was the fact that 4 IJN carriers were lost. I would have doubted that the USN would have tried any major offensive operation until mid 1943 (vs. mid 1942). The end result would probably be the same, but, would be too late for the USN to achieve a victory. The longer it takes the USN to break the Japanese lines the stronger the internal defences will be (Aigroups will get time to train and get better aircraft, LCU's from China will appear with ample time to get Artillery replacements and entrenched on Islands).

Jeremy,

PS. I do believe that Mogami's tactic is a valuable one, but, it is not the only choice for the Japanese player. Carriers aren't everything in the game. Land Based Aircraft used in the correct areas and numbers can slaughter a Carrier Task Force. If the USN Carriers approach near Rabul, or any other IJNAF base with Betty's and Zero's they end up getting severey wrecked. The same thing happens when IJN Carriers get close to Land Based SDB's and F4F's.

PPS. Remember too, the USN defeated the IJN at Midway with only 3 CV's vs. 4 CV's, but, Midway was classified as an unsinkable aircraft carrier. The Japanese can pull Midways on the USN in 1943-44 just as well as the USN in 1942.

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited October 07, 2000).]

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 11:33 pm

Hi EVERY THING Major Tom says is true if IJN waits to go to CENPAC he will be slaughtered he must go on turn 1 (wish I could deploy intial forces myself) However it has been my experiance in 2 player hotset games (I fought the same 2 allies hundreds of games)
If Japan goes underground and hides behind LBA the US comes in a massive wave in 43 and goes right on through it only takes 1 battle to destroy IJN does not matter what year it happens in. US fast surface TF's bombard IJN airfields (yes they take hits so what) US CV's should not even think of bombing AF (IJN ethier) You bombard with fast TF then Heavy TF's (21knot BB's) put massive disruption on LCU then 3 or 4 Inf Div land and good by IJN base if IJN CV's try to react they get sunk/damaged and can not help next island. You will lose at least 1 island a month (first Marshalls, then Truk, then Saipan, then Iwo ) from there US can drop their bomb when they get it it takes less then 6 months for US to steam roll Japans Defense. It might be losing 3 years later then failed CenPac try but it is same in end.
Once you start to play react over controlling events you are on the road to defeat. Let me say one last word here as Japan I do not want the war to last past early 1942!!!!!

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!

[This message has been edited by Mogami (edited October 07, 2000).]

moore4807 · Post by **moore4807** » Sat Oct 07, 2000 11:48 pm

Mogami
just trying to make sure I'm reading you right,
If playing IJN- I go CenPac on TURN 1, take Wake/ Midway/ Johnson Is., even if opposition stacks PH- I have a better than 50/50 chance of taking PH? which virtually ends the war...
Major Tom
Your saying go defensive after taking Solomons area, then stack up reinforcements for impending onslaught of US... Which Island chain gets priority then?? Truk, Kwajalein, Rabaul Marcus ? Wont the A.I. just pick my weakest link? (lotta territory to cover <grin>)
Thanks
Jim