Impressment Question

[Icedawg]

Could someone please explain this one.

I just did some impressment of resources in four different states on my last turn. In all cases, the chance of success was either 70% or 80%. The danger was either 10% or 20%. In no case did I gamble at less than a 70% chance of success and risk more than a 20% chance of danger.

The result: 4 unsuccessful impressments. Now I can live with that. It's pretty unlikely, but even if you consider all of them having just 70% chances of success, the odds of all four not being successful at the same time would only be .3 to the fourth power or 0.81%. Maybe I was just really unlucky.

The thing that was a real killer was that a building was destroyed in each and every province! OUCH! I thought that a building was only to be destroyed if the danger role failed twice (the first failure caused unrest, the second failure caused a building to be destroyed). Now, if you do the math, even with four 20% chances of danger, the odds of losing buildings in all four provinces would be .2 to the eighth power or .000256% (or less than 1 in 100,000).

Am I just REALLY unlucky or did I not read the manual correctly?

[spruce]

you are not so unlucky. In Crusader Kings (a Paradox game) I played a Greek Duke, living in a province with Greek culture, that married an Englisch princess - the guy had 7 daughters with all English culture ... I calculated the chance for getting this - it was roughly 1/1.000.000 - the game dev's told me to play the lottery next time ... so don't get upset [:'(]

[Mike Scholl]

Icedawg You aren't the only one to notice that the "chance of success" numbers in these tables seem to have been derived by a "stary-eye optimist"; while those for failure seem derived by the other side to deliberately "con" you into trying it! My luck has not been nearly as bad as yours, but I'e learned to cut the success chance in half while tripling that for failure if I want a realistic estimate. Mostly I've learned to leave 'Impressment" alone unless the situation is desperate; or the chances exceptional..., with the Governor's blessing as well. And one of these totally failed as well...

My "working theory" to explain this (and I have no evidence to back it) is that the AI has about a three times better chance of pulling one of these off than the player, and that's why it's there. No proof..., but it helps me stay away from the "once in a lifetimes deals" that always seem to burn me.

[ericbabe]

Looking over the code the probabilities should be working as displayed.  There's no deliberate crippling of the chances.  Here's the relevant section of code:

[blockquote]    {
    // CHECK FOR DANGER
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if (Random(100)<pProv->ImpressDanger)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int moreUnrest = Random(10)+1;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if (pPlayer->IsComputer())
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; moreUnrest /= 2;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->Unrest += moreUnrest;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; // report
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *g_GetValidReport(EventsReport, hPlayer) <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "~l" << TGameGfx::Unrest_Icon36+1 << " " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Impressment in " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->GetName() <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ": " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;moreUnrest <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; " turns of unrest!" <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; " \n";
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if (Random(100)<pProv->ImpressDanger)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; // destroy development
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int hBuilding = PH2_DestroyRandomXYDevelopment(hProvince);
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if (hBuilding)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; // report
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *g_GetValidReport(EventsReport, hPlayer) <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "~l" << TGameGfx::Plunder_Icon36+1 << " " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Impressment in " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->GetName() <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ": " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bldgs[hBuilding].pName <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; " is destroyed!" <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; " \n";
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if (Random(100)<pProv->ImpressSuccess)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; // SUCCESS GET GOODS
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int amt = pPlayer->GetGoods(pProv->ImpressGood) + pProv->ImpressAmount;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Do_SetPlayerGoods(hPlayer, pProv->ImpressGood, amt);
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; // report
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; *g_GetValidReport(EventsReport, hPlayer) <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "~l" << TGameGfx::Econ_Icon36+1 << " " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Impressment in " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->GetName() <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ": success, gain " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressAmount <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; " " <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MasterGoods[pProv->ImpressGood].GetName() <<
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ". \n";
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; // RANDOMIZE GOODS IN PROVINCE
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressGood&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; = Random(4)+1;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if (pProv->GetPlayerId()==USA)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressAmount&nbsp; = (Random(US_RandomImpressRange_Tenth)+US_MinImpress_Tenth)*10;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressSuccess = sandwich(20, Random(US_ImpressSuccessRange_Tenth)*10 + US_ImpressMin_Percent + NationalMorale[USA]*5, 120);
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressDanger&nbsp; = Random(US_ImpressDangerRange_Tenth)*10 + US_ImpressDangerMinimum_Percent;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if (pRuler && pRuler->Action==Supports_Impressment_GOV)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressDanger /= 2;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else if (pProv->GetPlayerId()==CSA)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressAmount&nbsp; = (Random(CS_RandomImpressRange_Tenth)+CS_MinImpress_Tenth)*10;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressSuccess = sandwich(20, Random(CS_ImpressSuccessRange_Tenth)*10 + CS_ImpressMin_Percent + NationalMorale[CSA]*5, 120);
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressDanger&nbsp; = Random(CS_ImpressDangerRange_Tenth)*10 + CS_ImpressDangerMinimum_Percent;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if (pRuler && pRuler->Action==Supports_Impressment_GOV)
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pProv->ImpressDanger /= 2;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }
[/blockquote]

The pProv->ImpressSuccess and pProv->ImpressDanger are the same numbers that give the report on the other screens.&nbsp; This is also the same routine that the AI uses: you'll notice that the AI does get a bonus for the number of turns in which its provinces experience unrest, but other than this it uses the exact same routine.

[Jim D Burns]

My question is why doesn't a governor who supports impressments negate the negative effects? I had a province get nailed with 5 turns of unrest and lose a mansion even though the governor was supposed to be supporting impressment. Of course I got nothing for my efforts as well...

Jim

[ericbabe]

The reason was a game design consideration.&nbsp; Suppose we had designed the game so that having a governor negate all negative effects of impressment.&nbsp; If this had been the case, then there'd be no reason not to impress in every city in that state every turn -- it'd be all free goodies with no reason not to try to get them as often as possible.&nbsp; From a game design perspective, no-brainer decisions like this have a certain lack of fun.

Historically, some of what we're calling impressment was done by the central governments (the CSA began collecting taxes by taking 10% of a farm's yield, for instance), and some of it was done under the authority of commanders in the field, which the historian James Rhodes describes in his "History of the Civil War":

"...the act of impressment inaugurated a far-reaching system of taking 'private property for public use' and authorized substantially, within certain limits, any officer of the army to seize any property anywhere in the Confederacy in order to accumulate supplies or 'for the good of the service.'&nbsp; The outcry against the operation of this law was bitter, widely extended and prolonged; and the evils of impressment were thoroughly appreciated by the War Department. Some attempt, which was probably futile, was made to correct the abuses; its operation was conceded to be harsh, unequal and odious but inexorable necessity had led to the adoption of the policy and would require its continuance."&nbsp;

There were similar impressment acts in the USA as well.&nbsp; The extent to which state governments (represented in the game by governors) can support this diverse range of activity is debatable, but I think it's reasonable for the game model to assume that their support not completely cancel all of the negative effects.

[mlees]

{
// CHECK FOR DANGER
if (Random(100)<pProv->ImpressDanger)
{
int moreUnrest = Random(10)+1;
if (pPlayer->IsComputer())
moreUnrest /= 2;
pProv->Unrest += moreUnrest;
// report
*g_GetValidReport(EventsReport, hPlayer) <<
"~l" << TGameGfx::Unrest_Icon36+1 << " " <<
"Impressment in " <<
pProv->GetName() <<
": " <<
moreUnrest <<
" turns of unrest!" <<
" \n";
if (Random(100)<pProv->ImpressDanger)
{
// destroy development
int hBuilding = PH2_DestroyRandomXYDevelopment(hProvince);
if (hBuilding)
{
// report
*g_GetValidReport(EventsReport, hPlayer) <<
"~l" << TGameGfx::Plunder_Icon36+1 << " " <<
"Impressment in " <<
pProv->GetName() <<
": " <<
Bldgs[hBuilding].pName <<
" is destroyed!" <<
" \n";
}
}
}
}
if (Random(100)<pProv->ImpressSuccess)
{
// SUCCESS GET GOODS
int amt = pPlayer->GetGoods(pProv->ImpressGood) + pProv->ImpressAmount;
Do_SetPlayerGoods(hPlayer, pProv->ImpressGood, amt);
// report
*g_GetValidReport(EventsReport, hPlayer) <<
"~l" << TGameGfx::Econ_Icon36+1 << " " <<
"Impressment in " <<
pProv->GetName() <<
": success, gain " <<
pProv->ImpressAmount <<
" " <<
MasterGoods[pProv->ImpressGood].GetName() <<
". \n";
// RANDOMIZE GOODS IN PROVINCE
{
pProv->ImpressGood = Random(4)+1;
if (pProv->GetPlayerId()==USA)
{
pProv->ImpressAmount = (Random(US_RandomImpressRange_Tenth)+US_MinImpress_Tenth)*10;
pProv->ImpressSuccess = sandwich(20, Random(US_ImpressSuccessRange_Tenth)*10 + US_ImpressMin_Percent + NationalMorale[USA]*5, 120);
pProv->ImpressDanger = Random(US_ImpressDangerRange_Tenth)*10 + US_ImpressDangerMinimum_Percent;
if (pRuler && pRuler->Action==Supports_Impressment_GOV)
pProv->ImpressDanger /= 2;
}
else if (pProv->GetPlayerId()==CSA)
{
pProv->ImpressAmount = (Random(CS_RandomImpressRange_Tenth)+CS_MinImpress_Tenth)*10;
pProv->ImpressSuccess = sandwich(20, Random(CS_ImpressSuccessRange_Tenth)*10 + CS_ImpressMin_Percent + NationalMorale[CSA]*5, 120);
pProv->ImpressDanger = Random(CS_ImpressDangerRange_Tenth)*10 + CS_ImpressDangerMinimum_Percent;
if (pRuler && pRuler->Action==Supports_Impressment_GOV)
pProv->ImpressDanger /= 2;
}
}
}

Aha! I see a misplaced comma... (joking)

[Joram]

Maybe I'm missing something here but it kind of looks like it's possible not to meet either condition (successful or unsuccessful) the way you have it set up.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

The reason was a game design consideration. 

Fair enough, so what does a governor who supports impressments actually do then? From what I've seen happen he has no effect whatsoever, so the governor support is misleading to players. I see no point in it other than to bait players into getting slammed with unrest and lost buildings thinking the governor will assist them.

ORIGINAL: ericbabe
Suppose we had designed the game so that having a governor negate all negative effects of impressment.

Well there isn't a 100% chance that impressments will succeed, so it wouldn't be that powerful. Also doesn't the success percentage decrease each time you successfully impress in a city? I may be wrong but I thought I read this somewhere in the manual that it goes down each time you use it so eventually it'll only be a 10% chance.

Jim

[Paper Tiger]

OK a test for you, not scientific but here goes.
Des Moines IA 60% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Failed
Springfield IL 70% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Failed 5 Turns Unrest
Augusta ME 50% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It worked!
Concord NH 60% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Failed
Buffalo NY 60% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Failed
Columbus OH 60% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Failed
Providence RI 40% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Success but 3 Turns Unrest
Madison WI 50% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Failed
&nbsp;
To me it looks like the odds of success are turned around 2 successes out of 8 with 2 lots of unrest at 10% chance out of 8.
at the odds above it should be 4 or 5 successes and 1 failure.
&nbsp;

[Paper Tiger]

And again for luck
&nbsp;
Des Moines&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 60% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5 Turns Unrest
Chicago&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 60% 40%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Success
Topeka&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 60% 30%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Failed
Augusta&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 90% 20%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Success
Lansing&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 80% 20%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Success & 3 Turns Unrest
Concord&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 60% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Failed
Rochester&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;30% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Success
Philidelphia&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;80% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Success
Providence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 40% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Failed
Montpelier&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 40% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Success
&nbsp;
OK this time around about what you would expect tried a few risky options and it didn't seem to make it any worse.
Next time Just the bad chances...
&nbsp;

[Paper Tiger]

Hartford&nbsp; 80% 30%&nbsp; 5 Turns Unrest Fail
Chicago&nbsp;&nbsp;50% 40%&nbsp;&nbsp; Success
Boston 80% 40%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Fail
St Paul 80% 30%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Success
Trenton 80% 30%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 Turns Unrest Success
Brooklyn 60% 40%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 Turns Unrest Success
Cleveland 50% 40%&nbsp;&nbsp; Success
Montpelier 70% 40%&nbsp; 2 Turns Unrest
Milwaukee 50% 30%&nbsp; 3 Turns Unrest
&nbsp;
5 Unrest Av should be 3
5 success Av should be 6
&nbsp;
And back to the best % next time

[Paper Tiger]

Not many good % this time so 2 turns
Springfield 80% 20%&nbsp;Failed
Detroit 70% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Unrest 5 Turns Failed
Buffalo 70% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Success
Pittsburgh 70% 10%&nbsp;Failed
Next turn
Davenport 80% 30%&nbsp; Failed
Springfield 80% 20%&nbsp; Failed
Topeka&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 70% 30%&nbsp; 1 Turn Unrest Capital destroyed
New York 80% 20%&nbsp;&nbsp; 5 Turns Unrest Success&nbsp;&nbsp;
Pittsburgh 70% 10%&nbsp;&nbsp;Success
&nbsp;
Av&nbsp;6 success (total 590% points) compared to 3
Av 1 or 2 unrest (total 150%points = 1.5av)&nbsp;compared to 3
&nbsp;
Try it yourselves

[Paper Tiger]

The above is not scientific but it fits with my gut feel for what you get when you believe the %ages and go for the high 70 or 80% chance to work and low 10 or 20% chance to fail. What you get is it very rarely works and hits you with unrest way more than it says it will.
Analysing all the above
18 times at 10% risk 4 times Unrest = 22%
5 times at 20% risk 2 times Unrest = 40%
6 times at 30% risk 3 times Unrest = 50%
6 times at 40% risk 2 times Unrest = 33%
&nbsp;
1 time at 90% chance 1 worked = 100%
10 at 80% chance 5 success = 50%
7 at 70% chance 2 success = 28%
9 at 60% chance 2 success = 22%
5 at 50% chance 3 success = 60%
3 at 40% chance 2 success = 66%
1 at 30% chance 1 success = 100%
&nbsp;
OK it's not a big sample but this was fairly random and it is typical of what I have seen. Looking at the 60,70or 80% range success is between half and a third what it says (my guess is half) while at the 10 and 20 % risk it is twice as dangerous.
Check your programming for where the brackets are and the /2 or *2 (just a guess I don't program the language you use and have done no programming in 15 years anyway.)
&nbsp;

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: Joram

Maybe I'm missing something here but it kind of looks like it's possible not to meet either condition (successful or unsuccessful) the way you have it set up.

Are you refering to the lines:
if (Random(100)<pProv->ImpressSuccess)

and

if (Random(100)<pProv->ImpressDanger)
?

[ericbabe]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
Fair enough, so what does a governor who supports impressments actually do then? From what I've seen happen he has no effect whatsoever, so the governor support is misleading to players. I see no point in it other than to bait players into getting slammed with unrest and lost buildings thinking the governor will assist them.

From the manual, p. 231, "Supports Impressment: Impressment doesn’t lower Attitude; the new Danger rate after an Impressment is halved from its normal value."

EDIT: The above to fix format problem.

ORIGINAL: ericbabe
Suppose we had designed the game so that having a governor negate all negative effects of impressment.

Well there isn't a 100% chance that impressments will succeed, so it wouldn't be that powerful. Also doesn't the success percentage decrease each time you successfully impress in a city? I may be wrong but I thought I read this somewhere in the manual that it goes down each time you use it so eventually it'll only be a 10% chance.
[/quote]

The impressment success/danger become randomized upon successful impressment -- these numbers are lowered for conscription/muster.

It's true that having a governor negate all bad effects from impressment wouldn't cause them to succeed every time, but it would remove a gameplay consideration: it would always be worthwhile to try to impress because there would only be a chance for benefit and no chance of risk. In general, I think it's best when giving players options in games to try to keep those options meaningful, by which I mean that they shouldn't be completely beneficial or completely detrimental. So I don't think the problem is that it would unbalance the economy, but rather that it would make players make choices without having to make meaningful decisions.

[Joram]

It's been awhile but I believe that is what I was looking at. But now I could also see there may be logic in not having any effect whatsoever. I also notice now that you actually have to fail the impress danger variable twice to have a building destroyed, correct?

@ Paper Tiger - I may not be much of a programmer but statistics I'm a lot better at. You're getting there but your samples are too small still. I'd say you need at least 25-30 samples per group to prove if it's working or not.
You could set it up one of two ways. First, save the game. Assuming that there are no other factors that aren't already displayed in the % success (or failure) group, you could just go around the map and impress until everything on the map has been impressed. Record your results and then re-load the game to the exact point before impressment. Then just repeat until you get enough samples in the groups you want to test (groupings being the %-groupings).

The more tedious but perhaps safer way to do it is pick a grouping, pick a province that has the %-chance you are looking for, and then just impress and reload 25+ times. That would get rid of any possible intra province variations. Being this a computer program and that Eric has said the % displays everything, this probably wouldn't be necessary.

I'd do it myself but I'm not actually at my personal computer for over another week.

Sorry if I'm repeating stuff you already know!

[nmleague]

After a number of games I have come to the same conclusion, its not worth the risk to use lmpressment.&nbsp; Thought I would do a little test, first turn of a game with me as the Union. Decided to use impressment for two cities, both gave a 70% chance of success and both only a 10% chance of danger.&nbsp; Both failed both -10 for governer support, one resulted in 5 turns of unrest.&nbsp; I usually dont try unless the chance for success is 70 or 80% and the danger is at least 50 points lower, and the return would be high.&nbsp; No exact figures but I would say the failure rate is 80% or more.

[Joram]

I will impress if the governor supports it. In the game I'm currently playing, three of my governors (I'm the CSA) support impressment and I will impress every turn that the failure rate < 20%. Because if I'm reading the rules right, there may be a 20% chance of unrest but there's only a 4% chance of a building being destroyed. Or maybe I'm just really lucky.

Meant to add that you will always have a -10 support whether you succeed or not, unless your governor supports impressment.

[spruce]

I think impressment should be decided "immediately" to simulate the "confiscation" aspect of it ... give it here, this belongs to the central goverment ... and the consequences should be rolled out during the turn&nbsp;...
&nbsp;
resulting in some kind of incentive to actually impress ... to match the need for some desperately wanted building or investment.
&nbsp;
I mean, the chances for winning the lottery are designed so that only a few happy will win big time - but most often you'll lose ... back to the game - and losing can be dramatical if you have unrest due to impressment ...
&nbsp;
so why is there any need to impress ? just wait a turn, and you'll get what you want ? ! ?