Tough Scenario

[06 Maestro]

Has anyone achieved victory as the German side in “Spartans at the Pass”? I have tried four times to no avail. In two of the efforts, I have come to within 10 km of the southwestern exit area. Even though I can get a 4 to one kill rate, I can’t seem to get to where I need to be.[:(]

This is a tough scenario to win as the German-85 unit to 85 units (checked out Mark Shot’s complexity rating afterwards). I played as the Allied side and without making any depth efforts, and won a decisive victory.

What really happened in this battle? Is it possible for the German side to win?[&:]

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Has anyone achieved victory as the German side in “Spartans at the Pass”? I have tried four times to no avail. In two of the efforts, I have come to within 10 km of the southwestern exit area. Even though I can get a 4 to one kill rate, I can’t seem to get to where I need to be.[:(]

This is a tough scenario to win as the German-85 unit to 85 units (checked out Mark shot’s complexity rating afterwards). I played as the Allied side and without making any depth efforts, and won a decisive victory.

What really happened in this battle? Is it possible for the German side to win?[&:]

I can't remember if I have played this one or not. I'll check tonight and if not, I'll give it a go.

Just as soon as I find a way to get a decisive in Foothills of the Gods with favor allies reinforcements and painfully realistic delays. A decisive was pretty easy in the straight up scenario. Adding a brigade to the allies defense makes for a much tougher battle getting the 9th Panzer Division through the mountain pass....

Your last statement reminded me of a suggestion I have been wanting to make.

The historical scenarios should provide an after action report on what the outcome of the real battle was, instead of just a description of the battle setting as they do now. Gamers with historical bents really want to know how they measure up to the historical commanders.

[Hoplomachia]

Hi 06 Maestro,

I have not tried this scenario yet, but now I am looking forward to it.

Historically the germans undertook two flanking movements here. One west of the British position at Thermopylae (that should be Mot. 55 Div.) and another along the road to Molos (probably along the coast).
Being unable to stop the German advance along the Molos road, the British abandoned their positions around Thermopylae.

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter



I can't remember if I have played this one or not. I'll check tonight and if not, I'll give it a go.

Just as soon as I find a way to get a decisive in Foothills of the Gods with favor allies reinforcements and painfully realistic delays. A decisive was pretty easy in the straight up scenario. Adding a brigade to the allies defense makes for a much tougher battle getting the 9th Panzer Division through the mountain pass....

Your last statement reminded me of a suggestion I have been wanting to make.

The historical scenarios should provide an after action report on what the outcome of the real battle was, instead of just a description of the battle setting as they do now. Gamers with historical bents really want to know how they measure up to the historical commanders.

In Foot Hills of the Gods scenario the Germans have a significant numerical advantage. The terrain is similar-very difficult for the attacking side, but doable.

I like to be able to compare my actions to the real commanders. Unfortunately, my knowledge of the Greek campaign is not very deep. It would be nice if the ending of the actual operation could be outlined-even if in a seperate document. I suppose I could just find a book on the subject, but I'm too lazey.

[MarkShot]

I see from my notes that I haven't played it from the Axis side. The next time I play a game of COTA, I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes.

[06 Maestro]

Hoplomachia

It's definitely a challenge with the current forces. The Germans have the 6th Geb Dv with the 3rd Pz Regiment KG-thats it. I would be intersted in how you fare.

BTW, what is "Hoplomachia"?

[06 Maestro]

MarkShot
 
Thanks- look forward to it.

[Hoplomachia]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

Hoplomachia

It's definitely a challenge with the current forces. The Germans have the 6th Geb Dv with the 3rd Pz Regiment KG-thats it. I would be intersted in how you fare.

BTW, what is "Hoplomachia"?

Hoplomachia, is ancient greek for 'weapons training' or more loosely 'weapons trainer'

I prefer Leonidas though, but that was already taken... [:)]

[Golf33]

By the time the Thermopylae battle took place W Force had already made the decision to withdraw. With the surrender of Greek forces in Epirus the left flank of the position was hanging in the air, rendering it untenable for a prolonged defence. In the event the Allies succeeded in breaking clear more or less on schedule.

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Gree-c16.html is worth a read for the historical context - it is very detailed so allow a bit of time to get through it!

Cheers
Steve

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: Golf33

By the time the Thermopylae battle took place W Force had already made the decision to withdraw. With the surrender of Greek forces in Epirus the left flank of the position was hanging in the air, rendering it untenable for a prolonged defence. In the event the Allies succeeded in breaking clear more or less on schedule.

http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-WH2Gree-c16.html is worth a read for the historical context - it is very detailed so allow a bit of time to get through it!

Cheers
Steve

The Alled force does withdraw in this scenario-just not fastenough to let me win. The AI fights hard with everything untill the last 24 hours and then there is a noticeable reduction in resistance.
I tried again last night; taking the eastern approach. Highest casualties so far, but still not reaching an exit south. This was the most successful effort so far, but the "car" was still sent for me.[:(]

Thanks for the link, it's added to my online military library.

[flintlock]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

This was the most successful effort so far, but the "car" was still sent for me.[:(]

Not to cause you undue alarm, however, word has it that the Gestapo's car that was dispatched to you is to rendezvous with a flight back to Himmler's headquarters in Lötzen, East Prussia. Rumor has it that the SS firing squads have been increasingly busy lately. Fear not, Maestro - I have reliable information that once you're on your way to Lötzen, the driver shall discretely pass you a small capsule containing a potent dose of potassium cyanide. So you see, not all is lost!

[06 Maestro]

ORIGINAL: flintlock

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

This was the most successful effort so far, but the "car" was still sent for me.[:(]

Not to cause you undue alarm, however, word has it that the Gestapo's car that was dispatched to you is to rendezvous with a flight back to Himmler's headquarters in Lötzen, East Prussia. Rumor has it that the SS firing squads have been increasingly busy lately. Fear not, Maestro - I have reliable information that once you're on your way to Lötzen, the driver shall discretely pass you a small capsule containing a potent dose of potassium cyanide. So you see, not all is lost!

But I heard that there was a new position for me as a Platoon Leader in a penal Bn in Poland-was looking forward to that.[;)]

[06 Maestro]

Are there any Mansteins out there that have figured out this little operation yet?  I'm up to 6 efforts-getting closer, but still not victory.

[RedDevil]

Hello Maestro,

Just started the scenario tonight but had only time to play 18 (game) hours. So far, not so good, but I am still confident.
I am tempted to make an post-as-you-play AAR, but given that you (the man who forced Yakstock to a draw) are having problems with this scenario, maybe I'd better not. Being the first to post a AAR documenting a resounding defeat may be too embarassing [:D][:D].

It's 1am here and tomorrow the alarm clock goes off at 6:30am so I will probably start  the AAR covering the time from D1 1200 to D2 0600 tomorrow evening (GMT).


Cheers,

RedDevil

[06 Maestro]

RedDevil
 
I'm just now starting my 8th effort at this-this time with a couple of pointers from MarkShot.  This is a situation where real planning is required-taking everything into consideration.  Two critical points must be considered before you even start;
1.  The Allied force is much larger than yours on the 1st day.
2.  The terrain offers excellent positions for the Allied forces-positions from which they can observe and shell your approaching (and outnumbered) forces.
 
It's been my experience that pushing too hard on day one only results in high freindly losses for little gain. 
I still have some hope of coming up with a winning plan, but it may come to an open, "living" AAR, in which everyone can submit ideas on how to conduct this little operation.
Where is a good General Staff Officer, with recent experience, when you need him?[;)] I don't want to appear obsessed with this scenario, but it is an interesting problem.  Also I'm not used to getting beat by a damn AI. 
 
Best of luck to you!
 

[MarkShot]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

RedDevil

I'm just now starting my 8th effort at this-this time with a couple of pointers from MarkShot.  This is a situation where real planning is required-taking everything into consideration.  Two critical points must be considered before you even start;
1.  The Allied force is much larger than yours on the 1st day.
2.  The terrain offers excellent positions for the Allied forces-positions from which they can observe and shell your approaching (and outnumbered) forces.

It's been my experience that pushing too hard on day one only results in high freindly losses for little gain. 
I still have some hope of coming up with a winning plan, but it may come to an open, "living" AAR, in which everyone can submit ideas on how to conduct this little operation.
Where is a good General Staff Officer, with recent experience, when you need him?[;)] I don't want to appear obsessed with this scenario, but it is an interesting problem.  Also I'm not used to getting beat by a damn AI. 

Best of luck to you!

Three things to consider:

(1) I think Sun Tzu said something about not meeting strength with strengh, but meeting weakness with strength. Thus, the need for feint (done as a weak probe so that it can be dragged out for quite a while). You will create a weakness and then meet it with strength.

(2) A tip I learned from Eddy related to probes and feints. A near probe can draw fire while a larger force maneuvers behind it, since the AI gives fire priority to the closest threat (and I suspect the best contacts).

(3) When I looked at the situation, I thought the worst thing which could happen would be to give the enemy a chance to dig-in and prepared to stand their ground. So, the feint besides getting them to mass away from where you will hit is also intended to keep them moving as opposed to digging in which will act as a force multiplier.

Well, good luck to you. I am going to sleep even if your obsessed with this all night!

[06 Maestro]

Well. I only obsessed until 0130. The results were similar as to earlier coastal plan efforts. I did get a little further this time. I lost an easy 6 hours due to poor staff planning (urgent engineer movement & resumption of the attack through a bridgehead). It's difficult to see at this zoomed out level, but the Allied forces are too weak to protech the eastern exit point-6 hours might have been enough.

[MarkShot]

BTW, there is not guarantee that every scenario released with the game is actually winable on the defaults (or even non-defaults). I think most of the scenarios do tend to get tested during the beta testing process. I try do write scenario reviews and from time to time the scenario may receive some rebalancing of forces and objectives. Be that as it may, any tweak of the AI or mechanics can well alter the balance of scenarios.

So, don't feel too bad. The scenario may simply not be winable.

I played this scenario a single time on 12/08/05 (over a year ago as the Allies) on Build 3115. What follows is part of the review I posted. As you can see, I felt things were quite lopsided then. However, without following up in the beta forum through old threads, I cannot say if it was ultimately rebalanced. Certainly, AI aggressivenss was boosted with Patch #1.

The scenario wasn't very challenging. It was a very lopsided decisive victory. This was given that units repeatedly stopped moving (bug) and that exit objectives may not have been credited properly.

I mean the Allies were supposed to be retreating. Yet, as you can see from the final map, the Germans didn't penetrate much further than the initial phase line and that was with me letting them have that phase line. It would seem that I could have easily held the Germans. In any case, I had no difficulty in exiting 80% of my total force.

The only mistake I personally made in the scenario was keeping my arty fire bases set too far back. I probably only unleashed 1/3 of my total arty capabilities upon the Germans. I kept expecting them to break my lines, and so I was very conservative with the placement of my gun batteries. In retrospect, I had nothing to worry about.

As you know I didn't use the delay command, but the scenario design was not conducive to its use. Meaning that the objectives were set up as phase lines with very precise timings. Thus, the delay command would not have been able coordinate properly with various occupation objective time windows.

Finally, upon initial read of this scenario and its objective, it wasn't immediately obvious what was going with the almost 20 objectives. After study for quite a while and drawing myself a picture it became clear; phase lines (if I have the correct) term. I'll attach the drawing I did for myself. Maybe the UI needs something better when this is type of theme that the scenario designer is trying to convey.

[06 Maestro]

Thanks for the information.  It is clearly not a normal situation (for 1941 Greece).  I am not giving up yet, I have at least one more brilliant scheme.   If that does not work, then I will toy around with the supply settings.  Perhaps the Allied supply situation was actually inferior to what is currently given.
 
In any event, there is an advantage to submiting to the same conditions and standards repeatedly, you have a good basis for measuring your progress. I am certainly getting better at coordinating the actions of different KG.
 
 This situation reminds me of a book that was given to me a few years (eh-decades) ago.  It was called The Dreams.  The story was about a hapless British Lieutenant in the Boer War who was having dreams about taking his platoon out on patrol.  He would lead his men into disaster, time and time again.  Each time he failed, he woke up and thought about his error.  On the following dream he would correct his mistake and make it a little farther-before getting hammered again by the pesky Dutch.  After many attemps, he and his men eventually achieved their objective.
 
I still have Sun Tzu's The Art of War around here someplace-perhaps I should take another look.
 
I will drive on-in the end, I have the power to adjust the enemy-if that's what it takes to win, that's what will happen.[;)]
 

[RedDevil]

Hello Maestro,

Tough day at work today so no progress, but the AAR should be start to appear soon.

The problem is that I have started to create the screenshots and I have found this wonderful thingy in GIMP. It was so nice that I decided that I had to use it! It makes the screenshots pretty useless, but they are so good looking that I don't care [:D]

Take a look! This is the screenshot of the opening moves in the North at the very beginning of the scenario. Isn't it nice?


Cheers,

RedDevil