Troops riding on tanks - What's up here?

[Tommy]

I'm a little confused on the rules here. In SPI I always gave infantry rides on the tanks; it was a great way to win close assaults. In SPWAW, when I try to load a German 10 man squad, I get "to many people, can only load 6. OK?" When I say OK, the other 4 guys vaporize! Last night, I spotted several Russian tanks dropping off full 12 man squads. Come on now, Russian tanks are not twice as big as German tanks. Or do the Germans eat too well and are all overweight?

Tom

[Recon_slith]

The short answer to this is that it depends on the tank. They are not all created equal. Vehicles have a personell capacity from zero on up. You can see what it is by right clicking on your units or looking it up in the Encyclopedia. It depends on the size of the vehicle primarily and its suitability (eg open topped vehicles like self propelled guns have little space and are supposed to be artillery pieces).
They have a weight limit as well (can only tow so much). Lastly, some are restricted to only loading small guns and infantry.
Actually, riding into action on a tank was not common but SP series players are too used to it to give it up IMO.


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Wait for Death. There's a choice?
Recon

[Wild Bill]

Good answer, Recon..WB

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Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

[Recon_slith]

Yer welcome, I'm shure.

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Wait for Death. There's a choice?
Recon

[Charles22]

Yeah, but..... Isn't the Russian tank that dropped off "12 men" the T34? This is perhaps unfortunate, as 12 just happens to be the number of a 'full' Russian infantry squad, and yet, are we thinking that the Russian tank just happened to have 12 handles on it? Isn't the PZIV series just as large as the T34, basically, and yet at least the early models have like 6 max for infantry carry, right? If the idea to allowing T34's to carry a full squad and the Gerry's not, is to in some way mimic a Russian hordes attack, then consider how crippling the Germans is largely negated when Gerry can start using captured T34's for the same purpose. In any case, there probably is more room, when considering design of T34 vs PZIV, for the T34, but it sure doesn't justify TWICE the carry rate; no way. To think how silly it is, remember that it's capable of carrying more men than any Gerry combatant, including halftracks.

Now the KV1 series able to carry 12 men would make more sense, but if it is the T34 as well, certainly not.

[This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 06-02-2000).]

[Larry Holt]

The Russians DID weld handles on their tanks for carrying troops. The StugIIIb can carry a full GE (10man) squad. Note that the Stug has a flat top and no revolving turret so I suppose it should be able to carry more troops than a PzKpfWIII. Also the T-34 had its turret more forward than the centrally placed on on the PzKpfWIII so that leaves more back deck on the T-34 to carry troops and more area in front of the turret on the III that troops could not sit on due to proximity of the guns.


I don't know if the designers had actually design or field modification data or just made a reasonable guess as to how many troops each vehicle can carry. Paul V. said his study or oral histories showed that only the Russians carried troops on tanks into battle (others carried them up to the front lines only) so this historical pattern may be a limiting factor also.

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An old soldier but not yet a faded one.
OK, maybe just a bit faded.

[Tommy]

That's right; it was the T34 playing the role of the 12 man taxi.

"Riding into battle on the tank" needs to be put into context. If you try it over open terrain in view of the enemy, you'll get shot off your mount in no time. It works best in running through towns or woods.

Tom

[Charles22]

An SGIIIB allowing 10 men? That's a surprise, but as long as Gerry has something. No, Larry, I wasn't talking about a PZIII, I was talking about a PZIV, which is a noteably larger tank, and which is comparable to the T34, though as I conceded, I realize the T34 may have been more geared that way, nonetheless, it doesn't justify the difference between the PZIV (or at least the early variations of the series) having only the space for 6, while T34's have 12. I believe the PZIII series early variants are being assigned a carry capacity of 4. Bear in mind, if these ratings were accurate, the T34 would need TWICE the area, despite the placement of turrent, to justify the different rankings. In other words, the T34 would have to be turrentless, despite the advantageous placement of that turrent. It's interesting that you would point out the SGIIB's 10 rating, because of all the war films I've seen, though the SGIII series isn't exactly the most featured, I don't recall ever seeing them manned by riders, though the PZIV's, and particularly the Tigers were (though of course the Tiger is larger), be that used in battle or just as convenient transport.



[This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited 06-02-2000).]

[Paul Vebber]

ITs a question of doctrine, not surface area. I have a photo of at least 23 guys riding on a Sherman, but its obviously no where near the front.

There is little evidence that show that tanks went into every battle swarming with troops on them as the typical SP player is won't to do. Even teh Russians learned that this was god only in limited circumstances and mostly for shock effect. They even stopped doing it late in the war.

The standard we adopted was 2xsize = carry capacity, and gave the Russians a little bonus, not becasue their tans where bigger, but because of their doctrine to use desant troops that way. IF you want to get into teh nitty gritty, tanks should be limited to road movement only when carrying troops (or a top speed of a bout 3 or 4 hexes) and troops should autmatically dismount if the main gun is fired or the turret traveres.

Feel free to up the carrying capacity if you wish, but the code will still make you pay a realistic penalty i blood if you insist n toting troops on your tanks within MG range of the enemy <BEG>