Freedom of speech

[Bucks]

G'day All,

I was under the impression that "Freedom of Speech" was guaranteed under the US Constitution? Yes I'm an Aussie and even though we don't have a guarantee of this right, we don't need it we accept that's part of a healthly functioning democracy.

Anyway here's something to ponder. I have over the last couple of weeks attempted to post four replies to the HHQ forum. I have been banned because of the following, which was in response to HHQ placing a copy of Harpoon 3.6 on their website for anybody to download!!!! (PIRACY)

Sunburn wrote:
Today a chap at Matrix's ANW forum wondered aloud if it was possible to go back from 3.7 (ANW) to 3.6.2. I replied by telling him it is technically possible, and that he would need the 3.6.2 and a valid LOK-KEE from AGSI. I also directed him to this thread here for instructions.

I checked after a couple hours and my post was deleted. The chief mod at that forum, Dale Hillier (VCDH at this here forum) sent me a PM:

Quote:

(Title): I've deleted your post.

We don't support piracy here and we certainly don't support anyones agenda. Do that again and you'll be banned.



I am submitting this event without further comment.

MY REPLY:

Before you start pointing accusing fingers ask Mr "Bundy" - (maybe the serial killer not sure) why he's deleted my three previous posts from this forum.

I pointed out that was censorship and he pretty much told me where to go. Now you guys are making a big deal out of what's been done to me here already REPEATEDLY.

Here's something to THINK about in relation to the PIRACY issue. Last time I checked, Don Gilman was the sole owner of the RIGHTS to computer Harpoon. he has to pay Messrs Bond and Carlson a license fee to continue producing this game we all say we love...

I couldn't blame Don if he took his "bat and ball" and went home for good. I'm working on the game and have actually given up some of my normal workload and the $$$ that earns to help produce what I know is a better game. Don has a good job at a University and this must be nothing more than a distraction from his normal routine when people do this to him.

Here's the ultimate "regression" theory. Why don't we all go back to using H2? That was a superb product with few flaws and worked like a charm... If people want to act like this here's the deal. Pass a hat around HHQ, do a collection and see if you can scrounge up enough cash to buy the license from Don. Then see if you want to continue giving away YOUR product.

Cheers

Darren Buckley

*********************************
Editor HUD-II/HUD3
Contributing Editor/Development Team
Harpoon 3.8
*********************************

Then I received this from the moderator of the HHQ forum:

From: Mike Mykytyn

To: shadrach@hotmail.com


Subject: Adios

Thought you'd figure out the warning but you're banned. Its just easier that way I guess Plenty of other place for you to hang out Darren. Have fun there would ya! Mike



I don't really care actually because I've just started pulling the DB2K apart and it's screwed... That is the database has serious issues that will effect gameplay and may even cause users to assume the actual game is buggy... Stop blaming the game if you're not prepared to do the hard yards and fix YOUR issues. If the HHQ "boys" don't want to play like good children, then don't play at all...


"What man is a man that cannot bring good to the world?"

Balian of Ibelin

Thanks

Darren

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[Bucks]

Sounds like a line from' "A Few Good Men"

"You can't handle the truth.."

Don't worry Dale I feel better that I'm in such illustrious company. We should start our own group, "People banned from HHQ forums" Who knows soon it might be the only group to be part of... [;)]

Darren

[danrhayes]

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Sounds like a line from' "A Few Good Men"

"You can't handle the truth.."

Don't worry Dale I feel better that I'm in such illustrious company. We should start our own group, "People banned from HHQ forums" Who knows soon it might be the only group to be part of... [;)]

Darren

Oh theres already few of those. Perhaps the most suitable would be HarplonkHQ. Its a special place for folks who like to talk to themselves.

Funnily enough these days it seems the two sides in that little war have one big thing in common ie their opinions of various v3.7s. Ain't that interesting?

Daniel

[Bucks]

Daniel,

What's your point?

HHQ and Herman have buried the hachet????

Cheers

Darren Buckley

[danrhayes]

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Daniel,

What's your point?

HHQ and Herman have buried the hachet????

Cheers

Darren Buckley

Oh dear Lord no, but I think you knew that anyway. I didn't think anything I said was particularly cryptic but anyway I was simply observing that despite everything else the two sides disagree on (with quite a significant amount of acrimony) it is interesting that both agree on a general level of suckiness in v3.7x. Previously the only things that could be agreed upon were fundamental stuff like "air is good" and "dead is not good" the sort of things that 99.9999% of humanity can agree on. Just found it interesting.

Daniel

[Flankerk]

It strikes me that all parties are agreed upon various problem areas that continue to exist.
When these are pointed out they are at times ignored or dismissed out of hand.
I suspect all of us want to see a fully functional 3.7 but we are trapped into something of a Catch 22 situation.
 
People are asked to convert over to 3.7 and likely would willingly do so. However when they try to, they find the SBR doesn't function properly. They might want to update their scenarios to 3.7 but the editors are not available.
The missions do not seem to work satisfactorily from most writers point of view so they can't post AAR's etc.
 
People want to support 3.7 but are unable to fully do so at present. The stance taken seems to typically blame Herman, blame HHQ or blame someone else. Its probably a tactic deliberately designed to unite the fans of the game [:)]

[Bucks]

Dan and HHQ in general I have a question seeing as you gotten away from what I started this thread about.

DO YOU ALL BELIEVE THAT MY ADDITION TO THE HHQ FORUMS WAS DESERVING OF BEING BANNED FROM THAT FORUM?

I was just pointing out that in many ways HHQ has an agenda if I can't even post there. Why silence me when I could simply come here and make it public anyway.

It's about time you all started being "straight up" with the community. I contacted Ragnar before all other editors and offered to generate sigs for him. It took him days to get back to me. I was attempting to help the HHQ, in fact anyone that wanted help with sigs. My posts on HHQ were deleted...

Mr Mike Mykytyn (Bundy) obviously has a problem with me and any attempt I make to post to that forum. As I see it, if you posted Windows 95 for DL on a website, even if Microsoft don't support it, they'll have you in court. Why pick on something you like and a group with limited resources? Because you can get away with it?

If you don't think AGSI are fixing your issues, start sending me the relevant databases and scens and I'll take a look. So far all we get here is basically, "It doesn't work like it used to". No proof, no files just talk... Ask Herman, he raised an issue with me last week and it's now in Mantis (bug tracking software) and Darrel Dearing has confirmed and is working on it now. Play like good boys and you'll help it get fixed, keep being shonky (Shonky : dubious, underhanded. E.g. a shonky practice, shonky business etc. Au - slang) and we'll end up who knows where...

Darren Buckley

[Flankerk]

Will try to catch you on mIRC at some stage. However your thread repeats the statement that we have pirated 3.6 which is I presume why you were banned?
I remain unclear how we can have pirated 3.6 when the thread indicated that serial numbers plus LOK and KEE's were required.
The thread on 3.6 was only posted after repeated requests from a number of customers. I say customers although they are of course customers of AGSI not us.

[Dagooz]

And you guys keep talking 'bout this "obvious agenda" of the hhq. Apparently I must be stupid since I havent figured out what that is yet! Instead of throwing rocks at each other why not make this game work instead? It's better use of everyones time.

[Dimitris]

This whole shebang is actually pretty simple to follow, if you look at the bare facts.

1) AGSI sells 3.6.2. It's a (mostly) stable, working exe with some bugs & problems and no MP. Community supports this release strongly with scens, DBs etc. AGSI hosts & freely distributes the 3.6.2 exe since you cannot play without a valid LOK-KEE or SN file.

2) AGSI & Matrix release 3.7.0 (ANW). New features (MP primarily) but also lots of bugs, performance & stability issues. Community starts migrating their scens/DBs to the new version.

3) AGSI agressively pushes ANW (3.7) to users. Part of the push is the gradual phase-out of support for 3.6.2. Customers who submit bug/problem reports with 3.5x or 3.6x are advised to upgrade to (and pay for) ANW. AGSI also quietly pulls the 3.6.2 exe off their site.

4) AGSI also advises third-party content creators (Scen/DB designers) to adapt their work to ANW. This is a non-trivial task, particularly so for creators who have massive datasets & literally hundreds of scenarios to convert. Also, AGSI fails to provide content creators with the proper & updated tools (SBR, DB Editor etc.) that would facilitate the mass conversion of content to ANW standards. As a result, content is converted slowly and with many problems & difficulties.

5) AGSI & Matrix fail to capitalise on the premier new feature of ANW, multiplayer. Matrix does not offer any game-hosting servers, instead relying on the community to provide the resources (server hardware, fast net connection, lobby gateways) necessary for successful MP. Furthermore, the product itself reveals numerous problems and showstopper bugs in MP mode. As a result, the MP appeal of ANW to this day remains limited. Users keep asking for a properly working version of H3, features be damned. To this date, new features aside, 3.6.2 remains the most stable, working version.

6) Amidst widespread community complaints about the numerous defects of ANW, AGSI prepares the 3.7.3 version. Third-party content creators are again asked to update their scens & DBs. No proper SBR is provided, and the provision of the updated DB editor stalls on a number of issues, not all of them technical. The strong majority of community content remains on 3.6.2-compliant status. Version 3.7.3 fixes numerous problems but also introduces several new issues, documented by HHQ staff. AGSI/Matrix staff communicates poorly about the nature of these issues.

7) Community members increasingly complain about problems with 3.7. The HHQ staff advises customers to use 3.6.2 (the most trouble-free version yet) until the problems of 3.7+ are  resolved to a bigger extent. Unfortunately 3.6.2 is no longer available at AGSI or Matrix.

8) The HarpoonHQ hosts and freely distributes the 3.6.2 exe, the very same copy-protected exe that AGSI previously freely distributed from their site. The exe is not accompanied by any LOK-KEE or SN file, and hence cannot be used without a valid license - and hence cannot be used for piracy. Detailed instructions are also provided on how to use this exe, including contact information for AGSI (to obtain a valid license). The purpose of the release is:   
[ol][*]To provide intermediate, short-term support relief to legitimate customers who care more about the stability & (mostly) trouble-free nature of the 3.6 exe than the MP &         other new features of ANW. This includes both pre-3.6 users and also ANW users     (since the 3.6 exe can be used on an ANW installation with little effort).[*]To provide an added incentive to AGSI/Matrix to get busy and develop a stable,     working version of ANW - one at least as good as 3.6 in this respect. Such a version would immediately render 3.6.2 irrelevant.[*]No other purpose.[/ol]The move is swiftly hailed by community members as a positive step forward, in terms of supporting the customer base.
HHQ staff members are asked, both on the forum and otherwise, to provide LOK-KEEs & SNs or even older (non-protected) versions of the game. They uniformly refuse, as this would promote piracy.

9) AGSI staff members (incl. the president, Don G.) immediately attack HHQ's initiative by spinning it as a move that "aids piracy". The HHQ site owner is threatened with legal action to remove the material. A heated public discussion ensues between AGSI & HHQ staff members; the records of the discussion are publicly available at the HarpoonHQ's forum. The HHQ site owner, after a second legal threat, removes the links to the material.

10) A customer at this very forum (Matrix) wonders aloud about the possibility of reverting to 3.6 after installing ANW. An HHQ staff member (and also AGSI customer and owner of every computer Harpoon version under the sun) responds that it is technically possible, but requires the 3.6.2 exe and a valid license from AGSI. He also provides a link to the HHQ forum thread which explains the process fully (though the links to the "offensive" material have already been removed). An AGSI staff member who also mods this forum deletes the post and threatens (bullies?) the HHQ member with a ban.

11) The AGSI staff member who started the entire "piracy" spin is banned from the HHQ forums for making a mountain out of a molehill.

These, then, are the facts.

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: Bucks
If you don't think AGSI are fixing your issues, start sending me the relevant databases and scens and I'll take a look. So far all we get here is basically, "It doesn't work like it used to". No proof, no files just talk... Ask Herman, he raised an issue with me last week and it's now in Mantis (bug tracking software) and Darrel Dearing has confirmed and is working on it now.

Darren Buckley

Dagooz,

I think my offer is ample evidence of my efforts to fix things. As I pointed out send me the relevant DB & saved game what the issue is etc and I'll look at it, pull it apart for anyone regardless of affiliation to any group.

I just find it very hard to explain what the issues are or identify them, if I don't have something to work with in the first place.

Cheers

Darren Buckley

[mikmykWS]

Darren I was pretty clear as to why I banned you and frankly posting it here kinda helps that argument abit. I don't have the time for drama queen stuff and don't care to deal with it. Very sorry I had to ban you to get that point across. After so many posts you don't really give me any other choice. Like I said plenty of other places out there. Have fun at them!

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[mikmykWS]

Dale I've already emailed your boss as to why you were banned. Have a funny feeling he might agree. When cooler heads prevail I think things will be okay.

[Bucks]

What is your point?

That people with opposing views to your own should just push off, yeah good on ya.

I attempted to add to the HHQ forum 4 times you removed them all and on the 4th you ban me. If you like I'll post your messages to me, and the forum here can try to work out from your riddles what the hell I was supposed to do. I even asked you to send me a "script" so I knew what was allowed...

FORUM: Noun
1. A public meeting or assembly for open discussion
2. A public facility to meet for open discussion

Obiviously these definitions slipped by the folks at HHQ.

I've had enough and refuse to waste another second on this drivel.

Darren Buckley

[mikmykWS]

I've had enough and refuse to waste another second on this drivel.

Darren Buckley

You finally got it. Great! Cya Darren

[Dimitris]

Dale, I could go on and counter your arguments one by one but that would only mean dragging this thing on to eternity. I am in complete agreement with Mike that this kabosh has already consumed too much time, energy and attention. In any case, your dear boss got what he wanted; arm-twisting and all. I stated the facts - the interpretation is anyone's privilege, including yours. The community is pretty smart alright, and has already made its voice heard. We made our point, and so did you. Let greed guide you at your own peril. For us, it's a hobby. Take care and have a happy new year.

BTW, everyone is strongly advised to check out JPK's opinion at "that thread" at the HHQ forums. While I don't agree with everything being said, its tone and maturity are aspects that certain people are well-advised to emulate.

[HercMighty]

All I have to say is I was one of those that felt he was forced into 3.7. The game is no longer on my HD and now only games I buy are from Panther and SSG at this point.

Maybe AGSI should look at those forums? Though I still cannot believe that a game made back in what the 80's is still being patched because it is still seriously broke. And the way that the forums are I can't see how it will be ever fixed. The amount of fighting is bordering on obnixious. And a lot of of it is started by AGSI itself.

You give the customers Beta patches, but we aren't on the Beta team. AGSI no longer wants the customers to see the internal database of bugs, why is that? Oh and by the way when that was posted by a member here it was outrageous, so maybe I do know. But the point is you now have a select group of people on a Beta team and it is not enough.

I dunno, maybe when the new Harpoon comes out I will take a look, I just have this funny feeling that it will never see the light of day.

[Hertston]

Forgive me for intruding on such private grief as a Harpoon newb. Maybe a perspective without the personal baggage may help a little.

The situation, as I understand it, seems to be thus. My apologies in advantage if I have misunderstood or misinterpreted anything or anybody.


1. Harpoon HQ were distributing, by making available a download link, an earlier version of Harpoon (3.6.2) to the one I purchased via Matrix (3.7)

2. They did this because some (maybe many for all I know) of the leading lights there believe, rightly or wrongly, that 3.6.2 is superior in terms of playability and, in particular, general non broken-ness to 3.7.

3. It has been suggested that that was not in fact their motivation, which was in fact some sort of attempt to torpedo development of 3.7. I can see little to support that.

4. The downloadable 3.6.2 .exe could not be installed and played without already having (from previous purchase) or obtaining (after Matrix purchase) a KEE file from AGSI.

5. There seems no doubt that, while Harpoon HQ were distributing 3.6.2 they had legal right to do so, such rights being exclusively with AGSI/Matrix.


OK so far? If so, my conclusions, based on what I have read here and over there are as follows.


1. Allegations of facilitating 'piracy' do seem dubious at best. The situation seems no different to what it was when ANSI distributed the file in that regard. Would anyone care to speculate as to the number of actual sales lost even if a few keys were floating around the internet for all those FPS and RTS fiends to find? My guess is you wouldn't need more than the fingers of one hand to count them.

2. Despite the above, Harpoon HQ cannot distribute 3.6.2 without the consent of AGSI, which they don't have and seem very unlikely to get.

3. There is a genuine belief among many in the community that 3.6.2 is superior to 3.7 as it currently stands. This is evidenced firstly by the fact that they still choose to play it, and secondly that there seems no possible motivation to lie about it.

4. As a Matrix purchaser of 3.7 I do not currently have the opportunity to judge who is right.

Finally, 5. 3.6.2 should be made available for download by somebody, ANSI/Matrix if not Harpoon HQ, obviously still with the need to obtain a key from ANSI to play it, this being provided on evidence of purchase. I can see no reason for not doing so. Clearly ANSI believe 3.7 superior but equally clearly several people with almost as much knowledge of the game do not agree with them. There is no need to 'support' 3.6.2 beyond noting the readme file that it IS unsupported. After a patch or three to 3.7 hopefully everybody will happily move to that version anyway, but in the meantime why not provide the choice?

Oh, and I forgot

6. Banning the game developers from a fansite has to be about the dumbest thing I've heard of in a decade of computer wargaming. The second dumbest thing is the existence of such a schism in the community of such a niche product. Time everybody on both 'sides' got their bloody act together. No offence.