synthetic oil?

[Chaylaton]

How quickly should the axis powers build their syn oil plants? Are the asap priority or are just as many units as possible?

Chaylaton

ps lucking for opinions[:)]

[Ian R]

ASAP, and so should the US, to get maximum marginal utility. The US marginal utility comes from the reduced need for shipping oil from Venezuala or alternately shipping that anyway and then having more oil for its allies (ie the CTH) to use.

[iamspamus]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ASAP, and so should the US, to get maximum marginal utility. The US marginal utility comes from the reduced need for shipping oil from Venezuala or alternately shipping that anyway and then having more oil for its allies (ie the CTH) to use.

I've played a bit with different groups (though not in several years) and I can honestly say that I don't think that I've EVER seen the US build a synth plant. However, wow, that makes alot of sense...

Jason

[iamspamus]

ORIGINAL: Chaylaton

How quickly should the axis powers build their syn oil plants? Are the asap priority or are just as many units as possible?

Chaylaton

ps lucking for opinions[:)]

Well, it was answered before, but ASAP. Usually, I see the JA synth built no matter what. I've seen the IT and GE ones built later, but early in 1940 and it was caused by other factors. I've also played DoD and tend to build them as early as possible.

Jason

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: iamspamus

ORIGINAL: Ian R

ASAP, and so should the US, to get maximum marginal utility. The US marginal utility comes from the reduced need for shipping oil from Venezuala or alternately shipping that anyway and then having more oil for its allies (ie the CTH) to use.

I've played a bit with different groups (though not in several years) and I can honestly say that I don't think that I've EVER seen the US build a synth plant. However, wow, that makes alot of sense...

Jason

I wanted to write exactly the same.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Chaylaton
How quickly should the axis powers build their syn oil plants? Are the asap priority or are just as many units as possible?
Chaylaton

- For Japan, I try to save 1-2 BP per turn, and then I build it when I'm left with 1-2 BP missing to build it. Usually this will be in early to mid 40. I'm usually on a high oil saving policy during 39-41 as Japan. I like to save as much as 3 oil a turn if possible, and I like to have more than 20 saved before going to war with the USA. That makes for about 1 year of fighting with my oil supplies cut.
- For Germany, I tend to build it when I know I won't have the Caucasus Oil. Usually this will be in middle to late 41 at the latest.
- For Italy, I never built it, and I think it is not worth the cost. ITaly should better rely on Germany lent Oil.

- For the USA, I never built the Synth, but it makes sense. On the other hand, for the USA I already have built 1 factory (in 40-41), and it makes a huge profit, but then you have less oil to reorg if you do not build a Synth.

[Incy]

I never build synth for any power. I prefer instead to capture oil with shiny military units.
Building oil is planning for defeat, IMHO

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Incy
I never build synth for any power. I prefer instead to capture oil with shiny military units.
Building oil is planning for defeat, IMHO

This is not true, especially for the Japanese.
The Japanese can conquer the oil they want, one day or the other in 1944 or 1945 they will be cut from it. Sometimes in 1943. Having at least 1 home Oil allow them to resist better and longer to that, or even to break the blocus.

I would say that building oil is planning for stiffer resistance.

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: Incy

I never build synth for any power. I prefer instead to capture oil with shiny military units.
Building oil is planning for defeat, IMHO

No it ain't. Synthetic oil plants have huge utility. Like other oil resources they can be used for production when you can spare them, unit reorganization when you need it, and lending.

The only powers I have not yet seen build a synthetic oil plant are the USSR and the French. Everyone else can find theirs to be extremely useful (especially the CW and Japan).

[trees]

timing is everything. For the USA, I would build the one available on the first turn. For the Axis, I like to build them for Germany and Japan in 1942. Italy's I skip. Before that I'd rather spend the BPs on units to go out and capture some oil wells. Once the Axis begin to reach their high water mark they can build the SYNTH's, which is also when they will have the most BPs available to do it.

[chris0827]

ORIGINAL: trees

timing is everything. For the USA, I would build the one available on the first turn. For the Axis, I like to build them for Germany and Japan in 1942. Italy's I skip. Before that I'd rather spend the BPs on units to go out and capture some oil wells. Once the Axis begin to reach their high water mark they can build the SYNTH's, which is also when they will have the most BPs available to do it.

The USA produced more than half of the world's oil at that time. Why would they need to build synthetic plants?

[composer99]

ORIGINAL: chris0827
The USA produced more than half of the world's oil at that time. Why would they need to build synthetic plants?

(1) More oil to reorganize units with in the late-game (trust me, you're burning piles of it by then).
(2) More oil/resources to lend to your allies (they'll need and/or really appreciate it, trust me again).

The US' motto when it comes to military hardware is "you can never have too much", so why not apply the same principle to oil? You don't have a lot else to spend bps on in S/O 39, and unlike the USSR you can get away with a rather flabby build schedule in the early game as long as you churn out your CVs on time.

[Froonp]

Here is the list of Oil resource that exist in WiF FE.

Argentina Oil Resources 1
Austria Oil Resources 1
British Guyana Oil Resources 1
Burma Oil Resources 1
Canada Oil Resources 1
Colombia Oil Resources 1
Germany Oil Resources 1
Iraq Oil Resources 2
Mexico Oil Resources 2
NEI Oil Resources 4
Persia Oil Resources 3
Rumania Oil Resources 3
Saudi Arabia Oil Resources 1
USA Oil Resources 17
USSR Oil Resources 10
Venezuela Oil Resources 6
Total Oil Resources 55

The USA have 17, plus 3 from the Venezuela, plus 2 from Mexico, that is 22 oil resources.
They have 40 factories.
They also have 24 normal resources, so they need 16 normal oil resources to produce at full strength.

So, the USA can only "spare" 6 oil resources per turn. Those oil resources are those that the USA has available to reorganize its units at the end of the turn, and to lend to his allies, especially Free France from time to time. The 2 Oil from Mexico will only be available when Mexico will have aligned to the USA, wich is about when the USA will be in total war, so until then (about early 1942), the USA only have 4 "spare" Oil resources, and he can only save 1 per turn when neutral.

Moreover, when they will have aligned Brazil and Mexico, they will have a total of 43 factories, and 26 normal resources, so they will need 17 Oil resources to feed all the factories and produce at full strength, leaving only 5 "spare" Oil resources.

In the late 1944 and in the 1945 turns, the USA can use up to 12-15 oil per very busy turn, so they need to have a good amount of oil saved, otherwise they will have to drop down their production. So the USA must be very carefull in 1942 & 1943 about their oil savings, to be able to have enough to support extended periods of high consumption in 1944 & 1945.

Having 1 extra oil resource can be very good to them, as it may mean 12 extra saved oil resource available for that period, wich means an extra turn at full production and full unit involvement.

While not being absolutely required (as it is for Germany), this makes the USA's life easier in 1944 & 1945.

[Jimm]

I still think its only of marginal advantage for the states- and to be frank a bit of a dull build strategy!

Its in the game to represent historic synthetic oil used by Germany & Japan who had extreme reasons for needing to go to the laborious process of producing "oil" from coal- I stand to be corrected but I dont think theres any real historical precedence for the allies doing the same.

[CBoehm]

ORIGINAL: Jimm

I still think its only of marginal advantage for the states- and to be frank a bit of a dull build strategy!

Its in the game to represent historic synthetic oil used by Germany & Japan who had extreme reasons for needing to go to the laborious process of producing "oil" from coal- I stand to be corrected but I dont think theres any real historical precedence for the allies doing the same.

playing with the oil rule I would always recommend that the US build the synth plant ASAP, since when neutral the long production time is "free" AND having the synthplant onmap from S/O 40 in likelyhood will enable either the US or CW to recoup some of the intial cost via an extra resource for production....

...Now with "the other MPs" I would wait ...with GE if I go for a barb-41 strategy I would recommend postponing the synthplants to M/A or M/J 41 ...the reason being that I strongly believe that the marginal value of an extra 7bp "on map" in the form of subs, AC or land units (vs. USSR) can lend a better avarage payoff than 1bp per turn. However as Ge gets stronger and stronger and production multiple goes the marginal effect of having 7bps extra onmap gets reduced to less than the cost of NOT-"having the synth plant onmap a turn before"

....Now if doing more of a sitz-strategy w. GE simply cloosing of the MED and attacking USSR in 42 I might very well consider building the synthplants in mid 40 or so.

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With JP and CW I feel that in general (unless a sitz-strategy has been forced upon or volentarily adopted by you) the marginal benefit of extra bps "onmap" outweight the value of the synthplant ...ei. why spend 9bps building a extra oilresource if those same bps could be used to destroy enemy units AND capture a resource ... ok, in 44 or 45 the allies might very well NEED more oil than they can lay there hands on simply to reorg (...depending on how many units vs. chits has been produced).

[mldtchdog]

Historically the USA, at the start of the war, had developed a process for synthetic oil that was both cheeper and of higher octane than anything the Germans could produce.

[Plainian]

If the US produced 50% of worlds oil why do they only get access to a possible 22 out 55 Oil Resources in WiFE? Maybe they should start off with some synth plants?

John Ellis in his book Brute Force has production figures for the allies and axis 39-45 for oil (and other raw materials) His figures show that the USA produced on average from (42-45) about 200 million metric tons. The German yearly average (39-44) was probably nearer 7 million metric tons. Thats almost 30:1?

I guess Harry must have factored out non war production when he set up Oil Resources or something.

Sorry none of the above has anything to do with MWiFE. I just get the feeling that the US have been robbed of oil resources.

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

Perhaps the domestic consumption of petroleum was much greater for the US than others.  When you combine automobiles per capita and miles traveled per automobile it might have a  huge impact on available oil.

[lavisj]

The real important figure for this game is how much of the oil was used for military purposes.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: lavisj

The real important figure for this game is how much of the oil was used for military purposes.

Well, it gets rather tricky as the war goes on. For example, when Germany started to run low on oil, they limited its availability for other uses. So, it was potentially possible to convert a lot of the domestic use into military use. And the infrastructure demands on oil to maintain production levels might be high (as mentioned above for automobiles, but applied to trucks). Of course this is true for all countries for all sorts of resources (i.e., rationing). The deeper into these details you go, the muddier the water.