OK - we have added the Royal Thai armed forces - as of the time they joined the Axis. But - except for a single fixed unit at Bangkok - they are not on the map. [That unit - being fixed - contains a supply sink. IF Bangkok were not generating Axis supply - it could wait to appear with the rest of the Thai units.]
Yet technically Japan had to invade Thailand - and it had to fight at places. I reduced the strength of Thai air units by the number of planes lost in this combat, for example.
The problem with the present solution is that Thailand BEGINS as Axis - when it isn't - and poses no obsticle to through passage of IJA units - which it did. What if we classified Thailand as Allied? THEN Japan must capture each location - although they are not defended.
We could also do this in a more complex way: if we can identify a place controlled by generals sympathetic to the Axis - it could begin as Japanese. And Singora - where the Japanese had to fight to get ashort - could not then begin as Axis.
Opinions requested.
What if Thailand is Allied? Conclusions at end.
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
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el cid again
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Capt. Harlock
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RE: What if Thailand is Allied?
Sounds acceptable to me. Do you have some biographies of the Thai generals, to indicate which side their sympathies were on?
Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?
--Victor Hugo
--Victor Hugo
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el cid again
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RE: What if Thailand is Allied?
I have a Thai history by an American academic - and some material on the commander of the Air Force (who was pro-Allied - but said the Air Force had to honor its orders - and then proceeded to dishonor them - flying Allied agents in RTAF aircraft!).
RE: What if Thailand is Allied?
Well, this sound interesting... But seriously, apart from the landing site at Singora, where the Thais managed to delay the japanese for some hours, it wasn't long until Phibunsonghram (sp?) declared a cease fire and initiated peace talks with the japanese, eventually leading to occupation and "cooperation" with the japanese. If the japanese forces are forced to capture every place in Thailand, I fear this would take much longer than the "Battle for Thailand" did IRL. I am therefore advocating for status quoe in regards to this issue.
el cid: on a different note, I'd like to inform you that yesterday I downloaded RHS EOS (never tried it before) and started a new game with it. I really enjoy the changes, and am looking forward to see how the changes will effect my strategy (as the japanese BTW) in the upcoming months and years (hopefully). Though I have found a couple of bugs that I'd like brought to your attention (I bet you already know, but...); the battleship Mutsu and 2xAPs and 2xAKs are "missing" i.e. not in any harbour and not in any TF and as such cannot be found... Well thats it. Like the work you and the team's been doin'!:)
el cid: on a different note, I'd like to inform you that yesterday I downloaded RHS EOS (never tried it before) and started a new game with it. I really enjoy the changes, and am looking forward to see how the changes will effect my strategy (as the japanese BTW) in the upcoming months and years (hopefully). Though I have found a couple of bugs that I'd like brought to your attention (I bet you already know, but...); the battleship Mutsu and 2xAPs and 2xAKs are "missing" i.e. not in any harbour and not in any TF and as such cannot be found... Well thats it. Like the work you and the team's been doin'!:)
Fighting for the Greater East-Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere
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el cid again
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RE: What if Thailand is Allied?
ORIGINAL: temagic
Well, this sound interesting... But seriously, apart from the landing site at Singora, where the Thais managed to delay the japanese for some hours, it wasn't long until Phibunsonghram (sp?) declared a cease fire and initiated peace talks with the japanese, eventually leading to occupation and "cooperation" with the japanese. If the japanese forces are forced to capture every place in Thailand, I fear this would take much longer than the "Battle for Thailand" did IRL. I am therefore advocating for status quoe in regards to this issue.
OK - there are not yet any defending RT units - so "capture" amounts to march in with anything. Thailand took until 21 December to join the Axis - and nothing stands up before 22 Dec - two weeks. So that is plenty of time.
el cid: on a different note, I'd like to inform you that yesterday I downloaded RHS EOS (never tried it before) and started a new game with it. I really enjoy the changes, and am looking forward to see how the changes will effect my strategy (as the japanese BTW) in the upcoming months and years (hopefully). Though I have found a couple of bugs that I'd like brought to your attention (I bet you already know, but...); the battleship Mutsu and 2xAPs and 2xAKs are "missing" i.e. not in any harbour and not in any TF and as such cannot be found... Well thats it. Like the work you and the team's been doin'!:)
Probably ship sunk date issues. But there is no way to find the AKs or APs unless you name them.
trevethans@aol.com
Mutsu Exists. It is in Task Force 5 at Bako (Pescadores) in EOS - replacing Haruna - which moved to a different TF. Other ships are moved around some in EOS. [That joint planning committee you know]
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el cid again
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RE: What if Thailand is Allied? Conclusions at end.
There were two divisions plus one brigade in Indochina:
Div. du Tonkin
Div de Cochinchine-Cambodge
Brigade d'Annam-Laos
The divisions contained a full regiment of artillery and a regiment of French regulars. Div. du Tonkin also contained a regiment of the Foreign Legion. The other regiments were full strength and equipped to French standards - normally French units had the same organization (but not always the most modern equipment) even if colonial levies. All three units contained motorized elements.
These forces rather imbalance the game - and tend to be utilized far sooner than March 5 1945 (when they were forced into the war - and except for the FFL - eliminated - by Japanese attacks). While having locations not under Japanese control is not a big deal - having 2.5 divisions occupying them is a big deal.
I also am unable to reconcile these units were not combat effective - again with the exception of the FFL and the Viet Minh. So I conclude only the latter should be in the game.
RHS will offer the FFL regiment in two flavors: Russian active scenarios will start with it active but not bellegerent; Russian passive scenarios will have it appear the day it was forced into action (March 5, 1945). In both cases it appears at Viet Tri - North of Hanoi - in the same hex as Phu Tho (where the unit really was on excercizes when forced into action). From this position it can retreat into China, as it historically did, and it also forces Japan to garrison Hanoi - at the risk of losing it if it does not.
The other units will all be Viet Minh. The organization formed early in 1941 in Tonkin - and in honor of that a grossly understrength battalion will start the game at Dien Bien Phu - a location without lines of communication on the game map. [This location had some logistic significance IRL - and it generates a moderate amount of supply. It isn't easy to assault - because there is no LOC to it - and no developed airfield.] The unit is in fact identical to a Chinese Guerilla "Regiment" - and it shares the organic supply of such a unit - so it can survive at less than full strength without any supply. Unlike a Chinese guerilla regiment, it is not a static unit - and is free to move like normal units.
A second unit appears in 1943, a third in 1944 and the last in 1945. Rated as Chinese units, if they cannot appear at Indochinese locations, they will appear in China (which supplied most of their arms). They are remarkably well defined as Allied units because, during the war, they were fully cooperative with the French and Chinese (and even Americans) - and also operated against other Indochinese nationalists for the French! These are very weak formations, but being defined as Chinese, they will regenerate very fast if eliminated - and sort of never go away as a hassle. They also grow in numbers over time.
I have been unable to make the Japanese Indochinese militia appear in any test. However, if I ever do figure it out - I will create the same units in the same slots - so they are ALWAYS present - and nothing changes when they appear (except their location might change at that moment). At the moment these slots are filled with Japanese replacement units - units which may be used as regular formations but which players know will eventually disappear (which IRL they also would do when chopped up as replacements). Since Japan gets all the Japanese and Indochinese militia slots as units anyway - it does not gain in unit count if these militias appear. The Japanese militia, however, appears as Class C divisions, and they are bigger than the Replacement Units in the same slots (which are more or less regiments: two infantry battalions plus a battalion of other arms, mainly artillery and engineers).
Div. du Tonkin
Div de Cochinchine-Cambodge
Brigade d'Annam-Laos
The divisions contained a full regiment of artillery and a regiment of French regulars. Div. du Tonkin also contained a regiment of the Foreign Legion. The other regiments were full strength and equipped to French standards - normally French units had the same organization (but not always the most modern equipment) even if colonial levies. All three units contained motorized elements.
These forces rather imbalance the game - and tend to be utilized far sooner than March 5 1945 (when they were forced into the war - and except for the FFL - eliminated - by Japanese attacks). While having locations not under Japanese control is not a big deal - having 2.5 divisions occupying them is a big deal.
I also am unable to reconcile these units were not combat effective - again with the exception of the FFL and the Viet Minh. So I conclude only the latter should be in the game.
RHS will offer the FFL regiment in two flavors: Russian active scenarios will start with it active but not bellegerent; Russian passive scenarios will have it appear the day it was forced into action (March 5, 1945). In both cases it appears at Viet Tri - North of Hanoi - in the same hex as Phu Tho (where the unit really was on excercizes when forced into action). From this position it can retreat into China, as it historically did, and it also forces Japan to garrison Hanoi - at the risk of losing it if it does not.
The other units will all be Viet Minh. The organization formed early in 1941 in Tonkin - and in honor of that a grossly understrength battalion will start the game at Dien Bien Phu - a location without lines of communication on the game map. [This location had some logistic significance IRL - and it generates a moderate amount of supply. It isn't easy to assault - because there is no LOC to it - and no developed airfield.] The unit is in fact identical to a Chinese Guerilla "Regiment" - and it shares the organic supply of such a unit - so it can survive at less than full strength without any supply. Unlike a Chinese guerilla regiment, it is not a static unit - and is free to move like normal units.
A second unit appears in 1943, a third in 1944 and the last in 1945. Rated as Chinese units, if they cannot appear at Indochinese locations, they will appear in China (which supplied most of their arms). They are remarkably well defined as Allied units because, during the war, they were fully cooperative with the French and Chinese (and even Americans) - and also operated against other Indochinese nationalists for the French! These are very weak formations, but being defined as Chinese, they will regenerate very fast if eliminated - and sort of never go away as a hassle. They also grow in numbers over time.
I have been unable to make the Japanese Indochinese militia appear in any test. However, if I ever do figure it out - I will create the same units in the same slots - so they are ALWAYS present - and nothing changes when they appear (except their location might change at that moment). At the moment these slots are filled with Japanese replacement units - units which may be used as regular formations but which players know will eventually disappear (which IRL they also would do when chopped up as replacements). Since Japan gets all the Japanese and Indochinese militia slots as units anyway - it does not gain in unit count if these militias appear. The Japanese militia, however, appears as Class C divisions, and they are bigger than the Replacement Units in the same slots (which are more or less regiments: two infantry battalions plus a battalion of other arms, mainly artillery and engineers).
RE: What if Thailand is Allied? Conclusions at end.
If not a known factor, the Royal Thai Air Force used Nakajima Hayabusa fighters and other aircraft, during the "cooperation period".
Here is a good synopsis:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/jan_ ... l_thai.htm
Here is a good synopsis:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/jan_ ... l_thai.htm
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el cid again
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RE: What if Thailand is Allied? Conclusions at end.
I used official RTAF materials and have most of the units in the game with the right equipment - or the nearest we can do. Some units don't use types we can represent however - and some simplificiations were required. I never was able to get RTAF the ex Dutch B-10s - but they have their own! The game logic won't let me change sides with the plane as replacements - but it will as initial equipment!
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jwilkerson
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RE: What if Thailand is Allied? Conclusions at end.
ORIGINAL: el cid again
OK - we have added the Royal Thai armed forces - as of the time they joined the Axis. But - except for a single fixed unit at Bangkok - they are not on the map. [That unit - being fixed - contains a supply sink. IF Bangkok were not generating Axis supply - it could wait to appear with the rest of the Thai units.]
Yet technically Japan had to invade Thailand - and it had to fight at places. I reduced the strength of Thai air units by the number of planes lost in this combat, for example.
The problem with the present solution is that Thailand BEGINS as Axis - when it isn't - and poses no obsticle to through passage of IJA units - which it did. What if we classified Thailand as Allied? THEN Japan must capture each location - although they are not defended.
We could also do this in a more complex way: if we can identify a place controlled by generals sympathetic to the Axis - it could begin as Japanese. And Singora - where the Japanese had to fight to get ashort - could not then begin as Axis.
Opinions requested.
I've experimented with "Allied" Thailand at start and like it ... has anyone ever noticed that, in stock, 5ID will not unload at "Singora" on turn one? This is because it is "friendly" ... well 5ID should be able to unload .. or at least the regiments and supporting units that did unload should be able to ... but make it "allied" .. and they will unload !!! .... I've also added the other invasion locations in Thailand and set up landings for them ... might have to give the guys going to Bangkok a bit of a head start ...
But the main issues are Vicky's point .. and Tavoy ... no way .. on any reasonably correct map, than you can get the historical Japanese Bns (one each) to those spots in the historical timeframe ... the real Japanese could just move faster than the game allows ... so that's kind of where I'm stuck at the moment ... how to speed up the advance on VP and Tavoy .. no answer yet ...
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