Missing trails in Thailand

[treespider]

For those modders who like to add trails because they are shown on maps... here are some photos of maps of Thailand and Burma from the 40's ...notice all of the little dashed lines all over the place ...they are trails ...Of note the Bridge over the River Kwai is at Kan Chana Buri....bottom center of this map.

[treespider]

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[treespider]

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[treespider]

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[treespider]

...and for those who argue that these trails should not be included the key to the map says that are motorable by jeeps...[;)]

[akdreemer]

Actually, considering how long people have inhabited this region and how often it had been fought over these trail do not come as any surprise to me.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: treespider

...and for those who argue that these trails should not be included the key to the map says that are motorable by jeeps...[;)]

Probably a bit more "iffy" than you suggest. The "better route" shown above it is still shown as "fair weather"..., meaning half the year it's washed out by rain. Somebody might get a pair of jeeps over these "trails" in the best weather (using the second to pull/push the first out when it got "stuck")---but that's a long way from being able to supply or move a significant military force over what's basically a footpath. And how many "jeeps" did the Japanese or the British have in this theatre?

[DuckofTindalos]

"Motorable"?[:D]

[el cid again]

I don't think these are really trails. True trails are not likely to be on a map unless they are of great local import in an area wholly without roads or rail lines (see New Guinea). These are probably secondary roads. You can still see these in Northern Luzon and remote parts of Mindinao - and lots of other places I am sure. They are wide enough for one way traffic - when you meet (rare) you have to figure out what to do? And they are maintained mainly by locals who want a way to get stuff in and out. But a true bridge may be built by the state.

I also don't think even a secondary road belongs on our map as a trail - UNLESS it is of strategic significance. Andrew Brown once wrote that most of China should have trails in all directions - and this is true of countries like Thailand as well. [North of here - Golden Triangle Burma and Laos - there is not much at all. That is unusual.]

FYI the "River Kwai bridge" is indeed on the map - it is a rail bridge - it was not built by a British battalion in captivity - and it was blown in a bomber raid - not a commando raid. [The movie is mostly fictional - and it offended Japanese sensibilities for suggesting they don't know how to build rail bridges. Japan is proud of its rail - and boasted the first "undersea" rail tunnel before the war - and the longest was just opened to Hokkaido - about 110 km long. The Burma-Siam RR was completed and operated for about 18 months.]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I don't think these are really trails. True trails are not likely to be on a map unless they are of great local import in an area wholly without roads or rail lines (see New Guinea). These are probably secondary roads.

True. I was probably mistaken to refer to such grand avenues as trails.[;)]

You can still see these in Northern Luzon and remote parts of Mindinao - and lots of other places I am sure. They are wide enough for one way traffic - when you meet (rare) you have to figure out what to do? And they are maintained mainly by locals who want a way to get stuff in and out. But a true bridge may be built by the state.

And how is that different from the description of the Kokoda or Kapa Kapa Trail as they existed in the 1940's?

I also don't think even a secondary road belongs on our map as a trail - UNLESS it is of strategic significance.

And what determines strategic significance? The fact that someone decided to use the trail or not? The Japanese decided not to try and advance down the Hanoi-Kunming RR and the Chinese didn't even bother to defend it after 1941. I guess it wasn't strategically significant after the section in China was destroyed, so why include it? The Japanese decided to use the Kokoda trail which was by all accounts not passable to motor vehicles (including to this very day), so why include it? If you are not going to allow players the oppurtunity to make other locations that did allow the passage of motor vehicles strategically significant in their vision of how the war should be directed, why include the areas that did not allow passage of motor vehicles?

Andrew Brown once wrote that most of China should have trails in all directions - and this is true of countries like Thailand as well. [North of here - Golden Triangle Burma and Laos - there is not much at all. That is unusual.]

My whole intent with this thread is to demonstrate that just about every hex on the map can be shown to have trails as Andrew already knows. The important thing, that some people tend to forget, is that "trails" in the game are much more than just places for units to "go". Units can "go" just about everywhere on the map. "Trails" in the game enable you to pass thousands of tons of supply in a single day.

Places like the Kokoda or Kapa Kapa trail or the road from Tamu to Kalewa which is located on the west side of the Chindwin river between Imphal and Mandalay and is the route Slim used to retreat out of Burma, IMO do not merit being represented as "trails" in the game. Why you may ask? They do not merit being represented in the game because these locations did not permit the passage of thousands of tons of supply on a daily basis.

[m10bob]

Treespider sez: "My whole intent with this thread is to demonstrate that just about every hex on the map can be shown to have trails as Andrew already knows. The important thing, that some people tend to forget, is that "trails" in the game are much more than just places for units to "go". Units can "go" just about everywhere on the map. "Trails" in the game enable you to pass thousands of tons of supply in a single day.

Places like the Kokoda or Kapa Kapa trail or the road from Tamu to Kalewa which is located on the west side of the Chindwin river between Imphal and Mandalay and is the route Slim used to retreat out of Burma, IMO do not merit being represented as "trails" in the game. Why you may ask? They do not merit being represented in the game because these locations did not permit the passage of thousands of tons of supply on a daily basis"

Valid point..Is there some way in the game to hinder the flow of supplies?..While the Japanese were able to move (assault) in a large group into the Owen Stanleys',their assault (and southern momentum) was eventually ended in that the delay caused by mixed Australian groups had caused a premature depletion of the supplies thay had carried WITH them..
The game (so far) does not allow fast enough movement in "jungle area" without having trails, but if trails cause too much movement of supply, that too would be ahistorical.[&:]


Quoting that Kokoda website:

"Although the Australians could not have known it at the time, their heroic defence of Isurava had cost the Japanese dearly, and made an important contribution to the eventual Japanese failure to capture Port Moresby. It has been estimated that Major General Horii lost at least 2,000 troops to death or wounding in repeated attacks over four days on the Australian lines at Isurava. The combination of very heavy casualties at Isurava, and the loss of four vital days from Horii’s ambitious ten-day timetable for crossing the Owen Stanley Range, would blunt the momentum of the Japanese general’s drive towards Port Moresby. These factors, when combined with the continuing stubborn resistance of the Australians along the length of the Kokoda Track, a chaotic supply situation produced by the rugged mountain terrain and lengthening Japanese supply line, and the starving and exhausted condition of Horii's troops, would eventually cause the Japanese to give up and retreat when Horii was only about 48 kilometres (30 miles) from Port Moresby and could see the lights of the town.

In the history of gallant defensive actions against overwhelming odds, few deserve to rank with the Battle of Isurava. When interviewed many years later, Japanese participants in the battles on the Kokoda Track have paid high tribute to the extraordinary courage of the Australian soldiers who blocked their drive towards Port Moresby"

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The game (so far) does not allow fast enough movement in "jungle area" without having trails, but if trails cause too much movement of supply, that too would be ahistorical.[&:]

There is not too much difference in the game between "cross country" jungle movement and "trail" jungle movement. What is different is the amount of supply which will make the move.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The game (so far) does not allow fast enough movement in "jungle area" without having trails, but if trails cause too much movement of supply, that too would be ahistorical.[&:]

There is not too much difference in the game between "cross country" jungle movement and "trail" jungle movement. What is different is the amount of supply which will make the move.

From the narrative posted above, the Japanese commander had planned on a 10 day trip from Buna to PM..How long does it take in the game?..I have seen units take a month, and that is flawed..

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

From the narrative posted above, the Japanese commander had planned on a 10 day trip from Buna to PM..How long does it take in the game?..I have seen units take a month, and that is flawed..

I agree...but which is the lesser of two weevils - if you include the trail you reduce a movement that takes twice -thrice as long without the trail, but provide the ability to move supplies....if you remove the trail movement is two-three times longer but you cut the movement of supplies...


Earlier you asked for an alternative as to how to slow the movement of supplies...as I suggested earlier - you remove the trail and place a dot base at Kokoda. Supplies will still move from Buna to Kokoda but will now move "cross-country" and will be reduced by 50% as opposed to the current 25%. Then if you are able to reach Port Moresby the supplies will move to PM from Kokoda but will be cut another 50%. This solution doesn't correct the Japanese time table but will certainly be a better representation of the supply difficulties...

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: m10bob
..Is there some way in the game to hinder the flow of supplies?..

Sadly not really. You can (and some people do, it seems) supply 600,000 men along a trail in the game. I am not aware of a limitation on the amount of supplies that can be drawn along a road, railway or trail. If such a restriction exists in the game I am not aware of it.

So you have an "all or nothing" situation. Either the supplies can get through (with losses depending on terrain and/or trail type) or they can't at all. In making the map, I think you should - first and foremost - try to ensure that what is possible in the game corresponds as closely as possible to what was possible in real life. However if things are "all or nothing" then this is sometimes not achievable. To use the Kokoda Track as an example, in the game you can either supply 600,000 men moving along it, or none at all, depending on how you depict it on the map. Neither is satisfactory.

Andrew

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: treespider

...and for those who argue that these trails should not be included the key to the map says that are motorable by jeeps...[;)]

Probably a bit more "iffy" than you suggest. The "better route" shown above it is still shown as "fair weather"..., meaning half the year it's washed out by rain. Somebody might get a pair of jeeps over these "trails" in the best weather (using the second to pull/push the first out when it got "stuck")---but that's a long way from being able to supply or move a significant military force over what's basically a footpath. And how many "jeeps" did the Japanese or the British have in this theatre?

If I ever get around to doing a pwhex to correspond to Cobra's monsoon art - we can have changes in transportation codes on a seasonal basis. We theoretically have three different sets of art - for four seasons (spring and fall being the same and = to the present maps - but they are not very long seasons - only 2 months!) Winter and Monsoon are each 4 months long. We can have ice freeze - thaw - etc.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

You can still see these in Northern Luzon and remote parts of Mindinao - and lots of other places I am sure. They are wide enough for one way traffic - when you meet (rare) you have to figure out what to do? And they are maintained mainly by locals who want a way to get stuff in and out. But a true bridge may be built by the state.

And how is that different from the description of the Kokoda or Kapa Kapa Trail as they existed in the 1940's?

Well - as they became after the US Army improved them - on the basis of photographic evidence - I would say they are IDENTICAL. The upper part of the Kokoda Track was never made into a true jeep road (apparently - as it still isn't) but the lower parts of it and the Kappa Kappa Tracks became at some point exactly as I described above.

What matters for coding purposes is this:

a) Is there a better route in the same 3600 sq mile area? If yes, ignore the secondary route.

b) Is the route less than 3 hexes long? If no, to put it on the map is merely art - regardless of pwhex coding -
and it will confuse all but the most technical players into thinking it can be used - when it cannot. See Central Asia for examples of this in all versions of WITP. While I have not removed all of these, I have "cheated" and made them traversable - as I did for the ALCAN - same on Sumatra - by the use of "sandwich" communications codes. You will barely move units or supplies - but you can move them.

c) Is the route of any strategic significance? If no - it does not justify the time to recode it. To put codes in every hex - there are great numbers of these - is a horrible task. I am trying to redo just Australia - and I wish I were not!

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

[

I also don't think even a secondary road belongs on our map as a trail - UNLESS it is of strategic significance.

And what determines strategic significance? The fact that someone decided to use the trail or not? The Japanese decided not to try and advance down the Hanoi-Kunming RR and the Chinese didn't even bother to defend it after 1941. I guess it wasn't strategically significant after the section in China was destroyed, so why include it? The Japanese decided to use the Kokoda trail which was by all accounts not passable to motor vehicles (including to this very day), so why include it? If you are not going to allow players the oppurtunity to make other locations that did allow the passage of motor vehicles strategically significant in their vision of how the war should be directed, why include the areas that did not allow passage of motor vehicles?

This is a very fine question.

The answer lies in the design intent of the modder or Matrix scenario designer.

Scenario design/modding is an art - not an exact science. More than that, it is an art of compromises; making trade-off decisions. IF your design intent is to simulate a historical campaign THEN it follows that the routes used by historical units is a consideration. IF it is your design intent to get out a product "quick and dirty" at minimum cost, THEN it follows that only the main routes matter (see stock maps). IF you want to throw in a "what if" option for players - AND IF you have the time to figure out the maps, do the pwhex changes and integrate it all with art - THEN perhaps other places may take on sufficient strategic significance to justify a change.

And there is a context to all this: time and slots. We lack the option to create "locations" in every hex - even if almost every hex in (say) OZ is a potential airfield - we lack the option of putting them all in as dot locations. Worse than slots, we lack the time to do 33,000 hex sides and thousands of communications codes and still play in this decade.
So it comes back to compromises - in the context of design intent.

To these factors I add one other: when a matter is brought to my attention by the Forum - I investigate it further.
For me what others think matters - but there is no requirement a modder take that route - and those that do are doomed to longer than planned development times. Because of the time factor - described above. So you have it backwards - I DO allow players to make suggestions of adding places - and sometimes (your case) I add things because of data they present which isn't exactly what they had in mind. Your argument that Kappa Kappa was as viable as Kokoda was persuasive for me - particularly after looking at pictures of the former (and having seen the latter) - I think Kappa Kappa is a BETTER trail. So - instead of using the data to take out Kokoda - I used it to put Kappa Kappa in. IF a whole division could assault down Kokoda BEFORE its airfield was available - there is no merit to say it does not permit significant military operations. [I say the same for the passage of the 144th RCT of IJA, but the larger scale of the Allied op makes that moot] The REASON we put them in is because they permit logistic and operational movement - and channel these along historical lines - not like other hexes without them which were worse. Perhaps that it the meaning of a trail in WITP? It is less worse to travel? If you can find any other trail down which a whole division moved and attacked which is missing I will surely add it. If you can find one down which a RCT did so, I will strongly consider it with a bias in favor of adding it. So that isn't exactly "now permitting" such changes, is it?

[bradfordkay]

If the game could handle dot bases with an SPS of, say, (-2) then treespiders solution may be the mose elegant. Create a tiny dot base at Kukoda, and remove the trail designation from the hexes. For those who like the historicality of having the Kukoda Track on the map, the graphics could be left there while the data says there isno trail.

Since I don't believe that this could be dones (the negative SPS), an alternative could be to have it a size (0) base with a house rule that prevents it form being built past size 1.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: m10bob
..Is there some way in the game to hinder the flow of supplies?..

Sadly not really. You can (and some people do, it seems) supply 600,000 men along a trail in the game. I am not aware of a limitation on the amount of supplies that can be drawn along a road, railway or trail. If such a restriction exists in the game I am not aware of it.

So you have an "all or nothing" situation. Either the supplies can get through (with losses depending on terrain and/or trail type) or they can't at all. In making the map, I think you should - first and foremost - try to ensure that what is possible in the game corresponds as closely as possible to what was possible in real life. However if things are "all or nothing" then this is sometimes not achievable. To use the Kokoda Track as an example, in the game you can either supply 600,000 men moving along it, or none at all, depending on how you depict it on the map. Neither is satisfactory.

Andrew

It isn't quite that bad. It is that bad for resources (and oil) - but not for supplies and fuel. There is a system of calculation - and the communications code is used in that system. If you need supplies down a trail, the book say you get them less often than you would if it were a rail line, and in a lower quantity. Same re a rail line, only more so. The book also say that supplies are consumed en route at different rates - and I think the trail rates are a bit high - not low. [If they were really that high, the villages and towns on the trails could not survive - and the trails would not have been maintained. I have walked some trails of this sort - and it does not really cost very much at all. Drinking water or other similar beverage is the main thing - I myself won't drink local water - and I carry all I need for myself and my child. According to my wife, my daughter and I are the only foreigners ever to visit who didn't get sick. But the idea that just moving down a trail costs many tons is hard for me to grasp.] Testing indicates this is true.