Combat Replays Are SO SCREWED UP!

[joliverlay]

Look at the difference between the Jap and US replay for the same combat.

I go from a great naval commander to a bungling idiot. Its not one combat, there all screwed.[:@]

In the US Replay the US does MUCH MUCH better in surface combat and in Air combat rounds, its almost as if one is on "hard" and the other is on "easy".

In one the US does NOT lose a BB and sinks 3 Jap BBs, in the other the US losses everything except 4CVs and 1DD, but does not sink any Jap BBs.

I like playing the game, but I'm so frustrated at "winning" my combat replays and losing the ones that count (the Jap ones).

Japanese Combat Report
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Funafuti at 86,108


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
SOC-3 Seagull: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu
BB Ise, Shell hits 2
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 6
BB Yamato
BB Musashi
CA Tone, Shell hits 6
CA Chikuma
CA Myoko
CA Haguro, Shell hits 1
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
CL Agano, Shell hits 1
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta
DD Kasumi
DD Ariake
DD Yunagi
DD Sawakaze
DD Shiokaze
DD Hasu

Allied Ships
CA Quincy, Shell hits 2
CA Vincennes, Shell hits 16, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Australia, Shell hits 28, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Dorsetshire, Shell hits 33, and is sunk
DD Patterson, Shell hits 38, and is sunk
DD Lang
DD Wilson
DD Case, Shell hits 13, and is sunk
DD Cushing, Shell hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Funafuti at 86,108


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
SOC-3 Seagull: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 15
BB Ise, Shell hits 5
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 2
BB Yamato, Shell hits 1
BB Musashi
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Myoko
CA Haguro
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
CL Agano
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta
DD Kasumi
DD Ariake
DD Yunagi
DD Sawakaze
DD Shiokaze
DD Hasu

Allied Ships
CA Quincy, Shell hits 92, and is sunk
DD Lang, Shell hits 38, and is sunk
DD Wilson, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Cushing, Shell hits 14, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Funafuti at 86,108

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 4, on fire
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Yamato
BB Musashi, Shell hits 1, on fire
CA Tone
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 1
CA Myoko, Shell hits 7
CA Haguro, Shell hits 7
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara, Shell hits 3
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
CL Agano
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta
DD Kasumi
DD Ariake
DD Yunagi
DD Sawakaze
DD Shiokaze
DD Hasu

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
CV Enterprise
CV Hornet
CV Wasp
BB North Carolina, Shell hits 59, and is sunk
CLAA San Diego, Shell hits 23, and is sunk
CLAA San Juan, Shell hits 17, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD Fletcher, Shell hits 5, on fire
DD Nicholas, Shell hits 32, and is sunk
DD O'Bannon, Shell hits 20, and is sunk
DD Ringgold, Shell hits 14, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Funafuti at 86,108

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, on fire
BB Ise
BB Yamashiro
BB Yamato
BB Musashi, on fire
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Myoko
CA Haguro
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
CL Agano
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta
DD Kasumi
DD Ariake
DD Yunagi
DD Sawakaze
DD Shiokaze, Shell hits 2
DD Hasu

Allied Ships
PT PT-166
PT PT-167
PT PT-168
PT PT-169
PT PT-170
PT PT-171
PT PT-172
PT PT-173
PT PT-174
PT PT-175
PT PT-176
PT PT-177

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,104


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 15
SBD Dauntless x 11


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Yamashiro, Bomb hits 4, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,104


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 2
SBD Dauntless x 8


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,104


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 15
SBD Dauntless x 24


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 24 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 2
CA Mikuma
BB Musashi, Bomb hits 1, on fire
BB Ise, Bomb hits 1
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,104


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 23
SBD Dauntless x 37
TBF Avenger x 17


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 22 damaged
TBF Avenger: 2 destroyed, 7 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Yamashiro, on fire
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 3, on fire
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Myoko, Bomb hits 4, on fire
CA Mikuma
BB Musashi, on fire
CA Tone

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,104


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 4
SBD Dauntless x 15
TBF Avenger x 3


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 10 damaged
TBF Avenger: 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Musashi, on fire
DD Shiokaze, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CL Tenryu
CA Ashigara
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,104


Allied aircraft
TBF Avenger x 6


Allied aircraft losses
TBF Avenger: 6 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
BB Yamato, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Allied Combat Report:


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 01/03/43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Funafuti at 86,108


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
SOC-3 Seagull: 4 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 2
BB Ise, Shell hits 1
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 8
BB Yamato, Shell hits 1
BB Musashi
CA Tone, Shell hits 6
CA Chikuma
CA Myoko
CA Haguro, Shell hits 1
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma, Shell hits 1
CA Suzuya
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
CL Agano
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta
DD Kasumi
DD Ariake
DD Yunagi
DD Sawakaze
DD Shiokaze
DD Hasu

Allied Ships
CA Quincy, Shell hits 5, on fire
CA Vincennes, Shell hits 16, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Australia, Shell hits 28, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Dorsetshire, Shell hits 33, and is sunk
DD Patterson, Shell hits 38, and is sunk
DD Lang, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Wilson
DD Case, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
DD Cushing, Shell hits 2, on fire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Funafuti at 86,108


Allied aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft losses
SOC-3 Seagull: 4 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 2
BB Ise, Shell hits 2
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 1
BB Yamato
BB Musashi
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Myoko
CA Haguro
CA Nachi, Shell hits 1
CA Ashigara
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
CL Agano
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta
DD Kasumi
DD Ariake
DD Yunagi
DD Sawakaze
DD Shiokaze
DD Hasu

Allied Ships
CA Quincy, Shell hits 14, and is sunk
DD Lang, Shell hits 10, and is sunk
DD Wilson, Shell hits 1
DD Cushing, Shell hits 46, and is sunk

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Funafuti at 86,108

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 15, on fire, heavy damage
BB Ise, Shell hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Yamashiro
BB Yamato, Shell hits 13, on fire, heavy damage
BB Musashi
CA Tone, Shell hits 5
CA Chikuma, Shell hits 1
CA Myoko, Shell hits 4
CA Haguro, Shell hits 10
CA Nachi, Shell hits 5
CA Ashigara, Shell hits 1
CA Mogami, Shell hits 1
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kinugasa, Shell hits 1
CA Furutaka
CL Agano
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta
DD Kasumi
DD Ariake, Shell hits 2
DD Yunagi
DD Sawakaze
DD Shiokaze
DD Hasu

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
CV Enterprise
CV Hornet
CV Wasp
BB North Carolina, Shell hits 46, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA San Diego, Shell hits 20, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CLAA San Juan, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Fletcher, Shell hits 12, and is sunk
DD Nicholas, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD O'Bannon
DD Ringgold

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Funafuti at 86,108

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, on fire, heavy damage
BB Ise, on fire, heavy damage
BB Yamashiro, Shell hits 5
BB Yamato, on fire, heavy damage
BB Musashi
CA Tone
CA Chikuma
CA Myoko
CA Haguro
CA Nachi
CA Ashigara
CA Mogami
CA Mikuma
CA Suzuya
CA Kinugasa
CA Furutaka
CL Agano
CL Tenryu
CL Tatsuta
DD Kasumi
DD Ariake, Shell hits 4
DD Yunagi
DD Sawakaze
DD Shiokaze
DD Hasu

Allied Ships
PT PT-166
PT PT-167
PT PT-168, Shell hits 20, and is sunk
PT PT-169
PT PT-170, Shell hits 2, and is sunk
PT PT-171
PT PT-172
PT PT-173
PT PT-174
PT PT-175
PT PT-176
PT PT-177

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,107


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 20
SBD Dauntless x 42
TBF Avenger x 26


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 5 damaged
TBF Avenger: 5 damaged

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 6, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Ise, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,107


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 27
SBD Dauntless x 83
TBF Avenger x 26


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
BB Ise, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 25, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,107


Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 15


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Yamato, on fire, heavy damage
BB Mutsu, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
BB Ise, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 86,107


Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 46
SBD Dauntless x 125
TBF Avenger x 44


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
BB Ise, Bomb hits 22, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Yamato, on fire, heavy damage
BB Mutsu, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
3 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
1 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
1 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
3 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
2 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x SBD Dauntless bombing at 2000 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x TBF Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet

[marky]

hehe, well not sending CAs against BBs would help [:'(]

ive only seen very very rae instances of a surface force intercepting carriers

1 time my POW intercepted Ryuko, no dmg tho [:(]

[joliverlay]

Your missing my point.

In one replay my 4 CVs hammer the BBs after surface combat getting like 100+ hits and sinking 3 BBs in the other I don't sink anything. Its like 5X as many bomb and 10X as many torpedo hits between my replay and his.

[marky]

yah, it happens, its kinda like a dice roll.

id play a carrier battle against the AI, and smash the IJN, then other times hed smash me

[marky]

i forget the full mechanics of the game, i just say, screw all the complicated stuff, ill just play the game [:D]

[bradfordkay]

Is this a PBEM? If so, it is old news, and they've been working on the problem for some time, but have yet to isolate it.

[joliverlay]

This is not us redoing a turn over and over, this is the same combat round displayed on two different computers. No die roll, supposedly the same results.

[joliverlay]

What I hate about this is it does not look random, and does not favor the Allied player. (I could use the help?).

I will have to seek an incompetent player. With my average skill and the replay bias against me, I suck.

Time to post in the opponents wanted for a Newbie, maybe I could win at a battle now and again.

[bradfordkay]

It is not that the game is cheating against the allied player, it is just that it doesn't always give him the right information during the combat replay. This is why most PBEM Japanese players will include their copy of the combat report for the allied player to see.

[rtrapasso]

THis is the well-known REPLAY BUG - you can try to resync using POMPACK'S PATENTED METHOD:

"1. Japanese player, receives Allied turn.

2. Japanese player turns off COMBAT REPORTS

3. Japanese player watches combat, enters orders and sends to Allied Player. (Japanese player does without combat reports and SIGINT for one turn; take good notes during combat)

4 . Allied player watches replay with COMBAT REPORTS ON (AFAIK)

5. Allied player enters orders and sends to Japanese Player

6. Japanese Player receives allied turn, turns ON COMBAT REPORTS

7. Japanese player watches combat, enters orders and sends to Allied Player. "

[rtrapasso]

The replay bug can be triggered by PT combat (esp. strafing them), however, this is not the only cause of the bug (apparently)... some people claim submarine actions can also trigger it.

[Mike Wood]

Hello...

When a campaign is started, a number is saved. That number is used as a root for the random number generator. Every single random number after that is predetermined for the rest of the campaign.

If playing alone, every time a turn is run, the exact same results occur. If the player does not like the combat results and wants to change them, all he has to do is generate a random number and replay the turn. This will use one random number from the list and the results will be different, because the numbers used in combat will all be offset by one. An easy way to generate a random number is to transfer a group to another location. That will cause all the pilots to make landing rolls and each uses several random numbers.

If playing by email, the “combat replay” file is just a copy of the saved game with some variables added to tell the program it is supposed to execute the turn and exit, instead of going onto the next turn. If player one generates a random number and player two does not or vice versa, the executions will differ. We found, for instance, during development, that when the music changes or a sound file is played, random values were generated. So, if player one had the music or sound effects on and player two did not or vice versa, the program would generate more random numbers for one or the other. There were a goodly number of other occasions when player options, such as mentioned above, generated random numbers.

At first, I locked all options and ignored escape key presses (if one player hits ESC, then random numbers are not generated for his execution and are for the player who watches the whole execution). This fixed the problem. Tester complaints caused me to unlock some of them. I then notified everyone and documented that player one and player two must have exactly the same options selected and must not hit any keys during execution and only click to close resolution boxes, when and if they appear. To do otherwise could cause a faulty resolution for player two.

In the mean while, we also looked for all cases we could find, under which the players could cause the error by differing resolution options and used a second, junk random number generator for them, so as to maintain synchronization.

After the game was released, by player request, I spent a year of my coding time adding new, free features, each causing bugs which then had to be fixed and generating new random values which had to be tracked down to maintain synchronization.

I then handed off bug fixes to a team of developers and went to work on Carrier Force. That team has also worked on the problem, but I don’t know what the current status is.

Hope this Helps You understand what is going on when player two sees something different than player one…

Michael Wood

[VSWG]

ORIGINAL: joliverlay

What I hate about this is it does not look random, and does not favor the Allied player. (I could use the help?).

I will have to seek an incompetent player. With my average skill and the replay bias against me, I suck.

Time to post in the opponents wanted for a Newbie, maybe I could win at a battle now and again.

First of all, let me say that I know how you feel, the sync bug happened to me too, and it is annoying as hell. BUT, there is no bias against the Allies, it is just a faulty combat replay. Most sync bugs I saw tended to be neutral, or rather in favor of the Allies.

The Japanese opponent should always send his combatreport.txt with the save, this file is ALWAYS correct. Read the text file first, then look at the replay. If there's a difference between text file and replay, the replay is wrong. Don't look at the text file after the replay, because running the replay will overwrite the correct combatreport.txt in your savegame folder with a buggy one.

I know that reading a text file to learn the results of a turn isn't as fun as watching the replay, but at least you can be sure that you know what happened that turn.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

At first, I locked all options and ignored escape key presses (if one player hits ESC, then random numbers are not generated for his execution and are for the player who watches the whole execution). This fixed the problem. Tester complaints caused me to unlock some of them. I then notified everyone and documented that player one and player two must not have exactly the same options selected and must not hit any keys during execution and only click to close resolution boxes, when and if they appear. To do otherwise, could cause a faulty resolution for player two.

Which explains why you should never hit the ESC key. In my game with Spence we have been out of Sync exactly one turn at the very start. I attribute this to the fact that as the Japanese player I watch the replay in its entirety and "only click to close resolution boxes, when and if they appear." The one turn we were out of sync I believe I did not follow this routine.

For those too impatient to let the turn play in its entirety, I guess you will just have to suffer being out of sync.

[joliverlay]

If this entire difference is cause by a single random number difference my conclusion is that luck plays a incredible role in the outcome of combat.   This one number resulted in a net difference of 4 BB sinkings in favor of one player or the other.  One random number the Allied loses 0BB, Jap looses 3BB;  The other random number Allied looses 1BB, Jap looses 0BB.  These losses resulted from perhaps 20 rounds of surface and air combat between 3 Allied TFs (Surface, Air, PT) and a Japanese Surface TF when the Japanese attempted to attack Transports unloading at an island base.
 
The Allied Surface TF conducted several rounds of surface combat, then PT TF did the same, then the Allied CV TF undertook surface combat.  Finally the surviving allied CVs hit the surface TF on the way out.  With one random number the Allied forces lost a four CAs, several DDs but sunk 3BBs, in the other the Allied lost a BB and 14 CAs/DDs but did not sink any Japanese CA/BBs.  Same forces, same weather, same commanders, just a different random number.  The allied high command could accept the first random number and claim a victory, in the other case the commander would be sacked.  Now, my question is, why does the single random number cause a large CUMULATIVE difference?  Is it a "good" or "bad" factor for all combats that round?  That looks like what happend here.   If random, the difference would average out rather than being cumulative.   

[Vetamur]

uhm...but real life combat can be just about one particular piece of luck.. for example, Midway. One Japanese scout plane takes off earlier and instead of 4 CVs lost vs. 1 CV lost.. it could have been 0 vs. 2 or 1-2 vs. 3 CVs..all because one cruiser didnt get its E13 flying on schedule.
 
I do sympathize though!

[Mike Wood]

Hello…

Without going into too much detail, the random numbers produced in a computer are not truly random, they are pseudo-random values generated by the modulus of a dividend based on the computer clock. They only become truly random as the number of generated values approaches infinity, much like coin flips.

To answer your question, it is possible, but unlikely that a single random value differential produced your combat results. Firing the guns on a single battleship, for one combat round, actually requires several thousand random numbers. We are talking inside, inside, inside, inside loops. Many iterations. This can produce wildly different results from one battle to the next, between two identical forces. It is a key to why Gary’s games are so popular. For example, the skipper of the ship might decide to turn left one time and right the next (I used to show the direction and speed of the ships, but removed the data before the game was published, due to tester input), which influences the order of gun fire, the horizontal and vertical angle of impact (which will contribute to effective armor) and location of impact (which draws upon still another set of random numbers to determine results). I rewrote the naval fire and hit routines, working with Commander Vebber, USN, after the initial routines were done to include the factors he and I used in Steel Panthers: World at War. The combat routines are as complex as might be found in a naval ship simulator with the skipper’s skills, crew experience, weather conditions, time of day, ship damage, type of shot, type of armor and many other factors are continuously interacting. So, it is unlikely that a single random number variance produced the differences you observed.

I appreciate how frustrating for the Allied player to watch a battle which never actually occurred. So, I recommend that the two players make sure that all the option settings are the same and not to hit ESC during resolution.

Bye…

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: joliverlay

If this entire difference is cause by a single random number difference my conclusion is that luck plays a incredible role in the outcome of combat...

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: joliverlay

If this entire difference is cause by a single random number difference my conclusion is that luck plays a incredible role in the outcome of combat.   This one number resulted in a net difference of 4 BB sinkings in favor of one player or the other.  One random number the Allied loses 0BB, Jap looses 3BB;  The other random number Allied looses 1BB, Jap looses 0BB.  These losses resulted from perhaps 20 rounds of surface and air combat between 3 Allied TFs (Surface, Air, PT) and a Japanese Surface TF when the Japanese attempted to attack Transports unloading at an island base.

The Allied Surface TF conducted several rounds of surface combat, then PT TF did the same, then the Allied CV TF undertook surface combat.  Finally the surviving allied CVs hit the surface TF on the way out.  With one random number the Allied forces lost a four CAs, several DDs but sunk 3BBs, in the other the Allied lost a BB and 14 CAs/DDs but did not sink any Japanese CA/BBs.  Same forces, same weather, same commanders, just a different random number.  The allied high command could accept the first random number and claim a victory, in the other case the commander would be sacked.  Now, my question is, why does the single random number cause a large CUMULATIVE difference?  Is it a "good" or "bad" factor for all combats that round?  That looks like what happend here.   If random, the difference would average out rather than being cumulative.   

In additon to what Mike Wood said I would add the following: Your above example is not one equation that is changed by a single random number...Your above example is a series of interconnected equations that are affected by the changing of a random number in the 1st equation. IRL as some one pointed out this could be the random number that determines when a float plane takes off and whether it spots anything...a seemingly harmless equation however when coupled with several other equations results in very different outcomes....hope that made sense.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

Hello…

Without going into too much detail, the random numbers produced in a computer are not truly random, they are pseudo-random values generated by the modulus of a dividend based on the computer clock. They only become truly random as the number of generated values approaches infinity, much like coin flips.

To answer your question, it is possible, but unlikely that a single random value differential produced your combat results. Firing the guns on a single battleship, for one combat round, actually requires several thousand random numbers. We are talking inside, inside, inside, inside loops. Many iterations. This can produce wildly different results from one battle to the next, between two identical forces. It is a key to why Gary’s games are so popular. For example, the skipper of the ship might decide to turn left one time and right the next (I used to show the direction and speed of the ships, but removed the data before the game was published, due to tester input), which influences the order of gun fire, the horizontal and vertical angle of impact (which will contribute to effective armor) and location of impact (which draws upon still another set of random numbers to determine results). I rewrote the naval fire and hit routines, working with Commander Vebber, USN, after the initial routines were done to include the factors he and I used in Steel Panthers: World at War. The combat routines are as complex as might be found in a naval ship simulator with the skipper’s skills, crew experience, weather conditions, time of day, ship damage, type of shot, type of armor and many other factors are continuously interacting. So, it is unlikely that a single random number variance produced the differences you observed.

I appreciate how frustrating for the Allied player to watch a battle which never actually occurred. So, I recommend that the two players make sure that all the option settings are the same and not to hit ESC during resolution.

Bye…

Michael Wood

ORIGINAL: joliverlay

If this entire difference is cause by a single random number difference my conclusion is that luck plays a incredible role in the outcome of combat...

In my current game with Moses, I (Japanese player) have refrained from hitting the esc key during animations, and except for an upgrade induced one turn synch issue (knock knock knock) we have not had any synch issues. Another option is turn off animations. The only downside of not hitting the esc key, is that you might forget and some of the land battles go on and on and on with little valueable info being imparted ... the downside of no animations is you don't get to see all the great art that everyone has done!
Another "trick" is, if you are playing allies (in PBEM) have your opponent send you the combat replay every turn - and look at that first. Then your expectations will be aligned with reality before you watch the "video" replay.
Of course all these are work arounds and I realize it would be nice if we could just fix it. And a number of folks have made efforts and will continue to do so .. but all those loops, inside loops inside loops Michael refers to above, make it tough to find the issue(s). But we'll keep looking as well.

[Nikademus]

you mean, view the combat "report" prior to viewing the replay, right?