Air Attack on Pearl Harbor

Soji · Post by **Soji** » Tue Feb 05, 2002 8:02 pm

As the Japanese Commander, I never choose the historical first move option (it's too conservative). I am trying to decide how to group my carriers for the inital attack on the American Fleet anchored at Pearl Harbor. Do I send all 6 carriers in one task force under Yamaguchi or do I split my carriers into two task forces, one under Yamaguchi, the other under Nagumo? The decision rests on whether or not suprise is automatically achieved during a "non-historical" first move. If surprise is achieved, there is a 100% chance that Yamaguchi will launch a full strike from all 6 carriers. Without surprise, the odds of lauching a full strike from all 6 carriers is 0%. For 4 carriers and 3 carriers, the odds for a full strike (w/o surprise) are 45% and 75%, respectively. With surprise, 6 carriers seems to be the optimum number. Without surprise, I wouldn't group more than 3 together. Another dilemma that I've been wrestling with is the distance to Pearl Harbor from Tokyo. It seems to be 34 hexes (How do you determine the actual distance from your home base to the objective?). The problem is the Kaga only has a speed of 28, which I don't think is fast enough to get within striking distance of Pearl Harbor on 12/07/1941 (assuming the TF moves at the speed of the slowest ship. Does it?). The IJN carriers were previously located at Marcus Island (in Pacwar version 1.1x22), but in version 2.3 they have been moved to Tokyo. I'm not sure why this change was made, but I think it is a major problem for the IJN Commander, who really needs the Kaga's 84 A/C to achieve maximum damage to the American Fleet. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Captain Akira Sogi ]

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Captain Akira Sogi ]

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Captain Akira Sogi ]

Soji · Post by **Soji** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 1:28 am

I've confirmed several things with regards to version 2.3: (1) It is 34 hexes from Tokyo to Pearl Harbor; (2) When using the "historical" first move (all 6 IJN carriers in one TF), the TF moves to within 3 hexes of Pearl Harbor and launches a surprise attack; (3) If you do not use the historical first move, the Kaga cannot get within striking distance of the fleet anchored at Pearl Harbor. This is a major flaw of version 2.3. Also, I've noticed three other bugs: (1) some ships (AVs, DDs, APDs, or DEs, I can't recall which) when added to a TF are automatically loaded with supplies and can't be unloaded to embark troops; (2) the ships from some combat TFs disappear when you remove the TF (they don't end up in port and the TF is still displayed, but without any ships); (3) On 12/7/1941 A BB TF (TF5) is sent from Tokyo to Midway in advance of a transport TF (TF8), but the BB TF fails to locate the Allied surface fleet and the transport TF aborts (this has happened several times). Any suggestions for ways to fix these problems?

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Captain Akira Sogi ]

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 4:32 am

Hi, historicaly the IJN CV TF left Japan in November you start on 7 Dec, thats why you can't reach it first week. The best work around is to play the Tora Tora Tora scenario (under 'other')
this gives you 5 BB and 3 DD sunk in PH. But SUPRISE all Jap CV start in Tokyo (except 2 CVL in Palau) SO with out doing anything you sink 5 BB and get to arrange the Jap CV any why you like (Say for a strike at Midway) PP's are why things do not happen with TF. Do not use Combined Fleet for anything but control of TF. Assign all Combined Fleet LCU to other HQ (change base they are at before loading to new HQ(SOuth Sea Fleet) now activate them on and off and they now belong to new HQ so they won't eat PP's) Keep the number of TF's you are operating with Combined Fleet to the lowest number possible (more PP's for each active TF) However be advised. A central Pacfic strat that fails loses the war faster then any other strat. If the Allies defend PH and surrounding Islands (not Midway/Johnson/Palmyra) then you are entering a very bloody battle of attrition that will suck up your fuel reserves and leave large areas of the empire without air cover (there are not enough airgroups for both Cen Pac and securing Southern Resource Area.) I have been a strong advocate of Cen Pac operations as Japan for a very long time, however in my case I do not really intend to occupy anything, I am really trying to get the US CV's into a battle before they have time to train or be escorted well. (USN has few leaders outside Spruance and Halsey who can command 2 US CV) The Tora Tora Tora scenario has the US CV's in port on turn 1 so you might find them reacting to any Midway operation with very bad results for you. (I do not start Cen Pac operations intill after Southern resource area is secured-I first grap Canton Island (size 4 airbase)this restricts the flow of material to south Pacific. The 7th Inf div captures all the northern bases (except Dutch Harbor) this gives it a little training then it moves to Wake to be used against Midway(the allied siginit has to have a real division to see to help convince them I am sincere in attacking Midway/Johnson/Palmyra I want them to commit all their LCU here rather then sending them to South/SW pacific HQ...............hmmmmm this could turn into a novel sorry, don't get me started on this topic....

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Wed Feb 06, 2002 9:44 am

Greetings Captain A, I sent you an e-mail with a first turn for Japan. Tora Tora Tora. The basic idea is the rapid conquest of the Southern Resource Area while making progress towards the South Pacifc and Central (to keep a human Allied player guessing) Since the TTT scenario gives Japan a free PH strike the CV's 2 fast BB and 2 CA in Tokyo should not be given orders the first 3 weeks (they really are not there) This does not effect the planning since it requires around 3 weeks to get a base in Cen Pac ready for them (Wake-Marcus)
The first thurst and how to follow up.
Malaya, the plan is to cut of the allied 9th division and destroy it. The Guards on turn 2 head south from Bangkok rejoinging 25th Army. IJAAF airgroups tranfer to Kuantan (size 4 and supplied with fuel on turn 1) 25th Army HQ relocates to this base as well. 25th Army now comprised of 2 Divisions and 2 Bde with the 21st Inf Division in Saigon to be released from South Army and transported to Malaya on turn 3 (when the transports get back from turn 1) 15th Army comprised of 2 divisions (more forth coming) pushes on toward Rangoon (HQ relocates to Bangkok with airgroups) In the Phillipines 2 div have landed east of Manila they should be readyness 99 they move to Manila the 2 northern divisions move to Clark Field, this will destry any allied LCU on Manila and push remainder back to Bataan (which will be used to train leaders for a while)
Del Monte and Kendari were both captured on turn 1 Kendari recieves Naval Air groups while the army gets Del Monte. Hong Kong should have fallen on turn 1 (before or after 65th Inf Bde reinforces 38th Div) with the transports there move one or the other and capture JoLo. The CVL's and CVE should be in port combine the 2 TF into 1 and send them on to Saigon (based from here it will support Java invasion) It is important for Japan to first capture Java before Palembang (otherwise allied airgroups from Java will damage the oil at Palambang) 1 division from PI is to be turned over to 16th Army. it also has the 38th (from Hong Kong) and 1 that was not lifted on turn 1 there is yet another div still in the home Islands. Capture Balikapapan and then jump to Soerabjia. In the South Pac the units that land on Tarawa on turn 2 reload and head for Canton Island (size4 airbase.) If Guam not captured on turn 1 embark units from Wake to go finish job. The Unit that captured Kendari captures the base north of Kendari on turn 2. The Del Monte unit capture Devao on turn 2 The time table is to have units landing on Java on week 5.
The 7th division should capture the first northern base on turn 2 the next on turn 3 and the next on turn 4 on turn 5 it heads for Wake or Marcus. By now Canton should be busy hitting traffic between South and Cen pac. Army and Navy airgroups should have arrived a Truk. The troops that captured Guam should have added Rabual and Santa Cruz. Engineers should be busy building Santa Cruz and or Ellice. and Rabaul. By stationing a CV TF and a BB TF with the 7th Inf division any human Allie would be concerned about the Cen Pac (hopefully buying you some time in the south) By the time the CV's are ready to be used in Tokyo you should have moved escorts from else where back to Tokyo (the 2 fast BB's in Saigon with some CA/CL/DD also all fleet assets in Central zone will be at Saipan on turn 2 to reorganize) On turn 3 (so as to not overload Combine Fleet on turn 1 and 2) begin sending all the scattered merchant/tankers home to Japan a few TF at a time) Let me know what you think.

[ February 05, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Wed Feb 13, 2002 9:55 am

Why does the "tora tora tora" start have 5 USN BBs sunk when in reality only 1 (USS Arizona) was a total loss???

The Oaklahoma was not a total loss, it was repariable but the US Navy rightly decided not to bother.

This is just another thing that I don't consider "right" with the newer OB files..

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 1:59 pm

I thought the ships were sunk, but the Navy was able to repair them because the sea was too shallow. Also loosing the ships is no real problem, you get new ones a year later.

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:32 pm

Originally posted by Frank:
I thought the ships were sunk, but the Navy was able to repair them because the sea was too shallow. Also loosing the ships is no real problem, you get new ones a year later.

That is exactly why I had 5 BB's sunk, because 5 were. The Oklahoma was not included because in all respects, it was sunk. It probably could not have been sent back into action until late 1945 anyway. Technically, the Arizona was repairable as well.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:15 pm

Correct me if I am wrong, but in Pac War the USN does not get "replacement" battleships for sunk ones. My reading indicates that only Destroyers, Cruisers and Carriers are "replaced" after about 1 year.

While the 5 ships were "sunk" as you say, they were all repaired except for 2 which cannot be represented in the game if they are "sunk".

Did you code the tora tora tora OOB to have the West VA, California and Nevada "reappear" in early 1943?.

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:19 pm

Frank, the ships were not sunk at sea. They were still at their berths with their "quarterdecks awash". All the guns and superstructure were never submerged (except for the Okie).

There's a big difference between being sunk at sea where there is no hope of salvage and being "sunk" at a berth in shallow water so that only the quarterdecks are awash in a major yard with extensive repair and shipbuilding facilities.
Even Truk was no comparison to Pearl Harbour in this regard.

The ships should be repairable,yes, give the IJN credit for the "sinkings" but the USN should have its BB. Otherwise we can't get revenge at the Suragio Strait <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mike Santos ]

Blackhorse · Post by **Blackhorse** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 12:10 pm

I sympathize with Major Tom's dilemma in dealing with "sunk" BBs. The way Pacwar repairs ships, even a battleship with 99% damage can be completely repaired in 50 turns or less -- less than a year.

So any BB in Pearl Harbor that is "unsunk" will be back in action before the end of 1942.

frank1970 · Post by **frank1970** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 1:15 pm

Isn´t it possible to give the ships to the player after one year or so, as a new ship?

CynicAl · Post by **CynicAl** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 1:02 pm

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
Did you code the tora tora tora OOB to have the West VA, California and Nevada "reappear" in early 1943?.

I just fired up Tora Tora Tora here, and those ships are not missing. They're in PH, heavily damaged, at the start of the game. Yes, the scoreboard lists five Allied BBs sunk, but only two (Arizona and Oklahoma) are actually gone.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 3:49 pm

Hi, it was nessacary to list 5 BB sunk for Japanese score. But the BB in question are made available to US player (after repair) This is one of the reasons TTT is my favorite scenario as Japan. Just remember the CV can not be in two places at once (Japan should not use CV and TF ships first couple of turns)

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:05 pm

Originally posted by Mogami:
Hi, it was nessacary to list 5 BB sunk for Japanese score. But the BB in question are made available to US player (after repair) This is one of the reasons TTT is my favorite scenario as Japan. Just remember the CV can not be in two places at once (Japan should not use CV and TF ships first couple of turns)

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mogami ]

Possibly in order to solve this have the IJN Carrier Strike TF appear as reinforcements on turn 1 or 2 to simulate their return voyage for "Tora, Tora, Tora"?

Major Tom · Post by **Major Tom** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:12 pm

Originally posted by Frank:
Isn´t it possible to give the ships to the player after one year or so, as a new ship?

What I did for the first version of "Tora Tora Tora" was to have the heavily damaged ships (California, Nevada and West Virginia) appear as reinforcements (since they were not fully repaired until 1943/44. The Maryland, Pennsylvania and Tennessee were all out and back to duty within a few months, albiet Tennessee went in for a drastic overhaul (even though she really did not need it). I might do the same for version 2.4's "Tora, Tora, Tora" since as it stands now, the California, Nevada and West Virginia will get repaired by late 1942, when their damage was MUCH more extensive.

I had 5 BB listed as sunk, as this was the number that were sunk (albiet not destroyed). The Japanese should get credit for their 'loss'.

I was thinking about alternate scenarios for the "Tora Tora Tora". One that there was actually a 3rd Strike, aimed at Port Facilities, Submarines and Fuel. What would result was in addition to the loss of Battleships, the 9x Gato SS group would be destroyed, all fuel lost, port facilities rated at a 3 or 4 (due to destruction of drydocks, and the actual Shipyard facility completely destroyed. This would remove the USN's forward Naval Base from the equation, and with the loss of the Shipyard facility, require all major repairs to take place solely on the US West Coast (along with the total loss of sunk US Battleships due to the lack of facilities to raise them) (along with 1 less Sub Group!).

[ February 16, 2002: Message edited by: Major Tom ]

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:48 pm

Hi, YIKES!!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> be hard to find human PBEM opponents to play allies after that PH strike. (would without doubt interest all those 'Capture PH early' Japanese players)
Jap CV's as reinforcments would remove the temptaton of using them unfairly.

CynicAl · Post by **CynicAl** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 9:04 am

Originally posted by Major Tom:
I was thinking about alternate scenarios for the "Tora Tora Tora". One that there was actually a 3rd Strike, aimed at Port Facilities, Submarines and Fuel. What would result was in addition to the loss of Battleships, the 9x Gato SS group would be destroyed, all fuel lost, port facilities rated at a 3 or 4 (due to destruction of drydocks, and the actual Shipyard facility completely destroyed.

That's an awful lot of damage, don't you think? It takes quite a bit of doing to put a major naval base permanently out of operation. Look at the maximum possible tonnage of bombs the Kido Butai could have delivered in a third strike. The D3As have a maximum payload of about 1/4 ton, and the B5Ns of about 3/4 ton - but the 800 kg converted BB shells are not in infinite supply, so most of them would be coming back for Round 3 with a lighter load. So even at a rather generous estimate, we're looking at maybe 125 tons of bombs heading for Oahu in Round 3, more likely 100 tons or less. Compare that to the nearly 3,000 tons dropped on Yokohama in a single raid in 1945 - and the Yokohama Naval Base was back on operational status in under a week. Or compare it to the repeated poundings soaked up by Kiel in the ETO - 1,000-bomber raids, with up to ten tons of bombs per aircraft, over and over again, day and night - and Kiel was never shut down by bombing. Nagumo didn't have that kind of firepower at his disposal, not by a couple of orders of magnitude.

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 9:14 am

Hi, I think it is more in the realm of a 'what if' Japan did such terrible damage rather then a 'it was possible' scenario

Ranger-75 · Post by **Ranger-75** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:37 am

Hi Tom,

I think the idea of the PH strike force being in a TF that is due to arrive back at Tokyo on turn 3 is a good idea (I think I suggested it in another thread. The TF should be out in the north pacific (where it really was) and should only have enough fuel to get back to Tokyo, and it should have NO PPs (Nagumo, didn't even have the nerve to bomb Midway he was so wound up). Also the Oiler group should be out there bound for wherever they came from I think the Marshalls or Truk, so as to give any SBDs / PBYs in Wake something to look for and attack <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Th "third strike" option would be stretching things a bit much, I think. Even if it was, then no more damage than the game is capable of creating in a single strike should be imposed, a reduction in yard, oil, etc., but not elimination of any capacity. We couldn't do ot to the JN in 1945 with much bigger bombs and much larger raids, why should the IJN be able to do it in 1941???

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 5:53 pm

Hi, Hiryu and Soryu were detached from the strike force and bombed Wake (losing their crack divebomber group leader there) 2 American carriers were in the area but did not engage (causing one american pilot to say the war was being fought between the two yellow races) <img src="eek.gif" border="0">