west front D-Day 1944

[harsmith]

I am just a newbie at this game but I have some concerns re this scenario and are wondering if others are happy with it or if it is just my inexperience at this game. the initial landings as allies seems a crap shoot whether you get ashore in force or not, so I added some sea roads with the editor to juno and sword beaches. this worked well and the game went tolerably historically untol breakout occurred on about the 21/07/44- slightly ahead of actual timeline. the german PO then performed an intelligent withdrawal to the Seine- compliments to the programmer!
BUT - I cant help feeling that the german resupply was very ahistorical- destroyed units seem to reform rapidly and there was none of the terrible attrition that the germans suffered historically. I remember reading accounts that they had losses of over 250000 troops and recieved replacements totalling 7000 or something like this.

Does the German player (PO) receive ahistoric replacements of men and equipment? if not, what are the recommended approaches to breakout and keep moving so as to get close to winning this game?

[Veers]

Actually, the general concensus on thsi one is that the Germans are far too weak. Playing Human opponents, I was able to overrun the Germans in 24 turns, the first time, and it'll be less than 50 in the WF game I am still playing. There is a thread over at GS about improving the scenario. I suggest you read it, grab the latest version of the scenrio (which is, as of yet, not programmed for the PO as we intend to finish the scenario and then program the PO) and try it.

Thread link

[Veers]

Ummm...just to be clear, are you taking about Western Front 1944-1945, by Trey Marshall, that shipped with TOAW III? Otherwise, if not, disregard my comments. [:D]

[harsmith]

I think that is a different scenario. I do not have the game with me on this computer but I remember there was another scenario which covered the entire European theatre beginning with operation diadem in Italy and then moving on to overlord.I think this is the scenario that you are referring to.

the scenario that I am requesting help on begins with D-Day. It ends in? November 1944 after the allies have hopefully broken through the west wall.

thank you for your interest anyway.

[Veers]

Right then, different scenario.

[PaladinSix]

Harding,

Are you referring to Bob Cross' D-Day scenario, which is around 34+ turns long, battalion/regimental scale and goes from 6 June to around the end of September? If so, I've had similar experiences with that one, especially the crap shoot getting off the beaches. In fact, in roughly twenty tries, using a variety of approaches and settings, I have managed to establish a sustainable beachhead approximately twice. I'm no expert at this game, but I don't have this trouble with any other scenario that I've tried.

PaladinSix

[harsmith]

yes I think that is the one. problem seems to be the strength of the German counter-attack on turns 2-4 when they rarely have any problems pushing off the invasion beaches and once that happens, you get no reinforcements. the Allied units also seem to be amazingly fragile in defence compared to the German units. while I am prepared to accept that most of my problems could be due to inexperience with this game, I do have some problems with the scenario itself. the destruction of the German rail network was well-documented in Chester Wilmot's the struggle for Europe and was not only more extensive than the scenario represents but German repair efforts were totally swamped by ongoing bombing. I am not sure that scenario represents this. if anybody who has read this post and has had success in either winning this scenario or the cobra 1944 scenario, I would dearly appreciate some tips and advice.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: harding

yes I think that is the one. problem seems to be the strength of the German counter-attack on turns 2-4 when they rarely have any problems pushing off the invasion beaches and once that happens, you get no reinforcements. the Allied units also seem to be amazingly fragile in defence compared to the German units. while I am prepared to accept that most of my problems could be due to inexperience with this game, I do have some problems with the scenario itself. the destruction of the German rail network was well-documented in Chester Wilmot's the struggle for Europe and was not only more extensive than the scenario represents but German repair efforts were totally swamped by ongoing bombing. I am not sure that scenario represents this. if anybody who has read this post and has had success in either winning this scenario or the cobra 1944 scenario, I would dearly appreciate some tips and advice.

Sorry you're having trouble, but I get emails saying the exact reverse - that the scenario is hopelessly unbalanced against the Germans. Those emails better correlate with my own experience with it. Clearly the first turn is critical. If you execute it correctly, you'll be hard to stop.

I've attached a screenshot of a typical first turn result. You should be able to achieve something similar. I'm not going to go into how, since that's critical to the scenario and would spoil everyone's fun. But there's no trick to it - just the usual suite of TOAW skills.

I am working on a TOAW III update, but it will, if anything, make things more difficult for the Allies in Normandy.

[PaladinSix]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: harding

yes I think that is the one. problem seems to be the strength of the German counter-attack on turns 2-4 when they rarely have any problems pushing off the invasion beaches and once that happens, you get no reinforcements. the Allied units also seem to be amazingly fragile in defence compared to the German units. while I am prepared to accept that most of my problems could be due to inexperience with this game, I do have some problems with the scenario itself. the destruction of the German rail network was well-documented in Chester Wilmot's the struggle for Europe and was not only more extensive than the scenario represents but German repair efforts were totally swamped by ongoing bombing. I am not sure that scenario represents this. if anybody who has read this post and has had success in either winning this scenario or the cobra 1944 scenario, I would dearly appreciate some tips and advice.

Sorry you're having trouble, but I get emails saying the exact reverse - that the scenario is hopelessly unbalanced against the Germans. Those emails better correlate with my own experience with it. Clearly the first turn is critical. If you execute it correctly, you'll be hard to stop.

I've attached a screenshot of a typical first turn result. You should be able to achieve something similar. I'm not going to go into how, since that's critical to the scenario and would spoil everyone's fun. But there's no trick to it - just the usual suite of TOAW skills.

I am working on a TOAW III update, but it will, if anything, make things more difficult for the Allies in Normandy.

Curtis,

On behalf of Harding and myself (and perhaps others who have trouble with this one), is there any way to convince you to overcome your reluctance to post a detailed AAR for the first turn or two of this scenario? My experience is essentially the same as harding's, and the map you posted above shows a level of success that I can only dream about.

I think I have the basic mechanics of this game down pretty well, and I don't generally have too much trouble with other scenarios, but I have been periodically trying to break the first day on this one for about six months with absolutely zero success. The result of the first turn always seems the same: either I get smashed up on the landing beaches, or I get a little ways inland but not in enough strength to hold a beachead. Either way, the beach hexes are either in german hands or full of broken remnants of my first attacks, so no reinforcements can show up.

I know I should probably move on and forget the whole thing, but obviously others have had success with this scenario and it really aggravates me that I can't come close to replicating it. I must be doing something fundamentally wrong, but I've tried every variation and tactic that I know and nothing works. I'm past the point of looking for fun; I just want to be able to put this one behind me.

PaladinSix

[el cid]

I have not played this scenario, but you must keep in mind that just for a sea amphibious attack takes 50% of the turn to start, so it is very easy to burn up your firts turn.

Generally, use the first 50% of the turn to bombard the locations you want to land at. And after each bombardment, check with your strongest unit if the enemy is willing to retreat before combat. If not keep bombarding. Then, when 50% of the turn has elapse, attack at full strenght.

If at any point you get a beach head, land many units there (sea landing does not take 50% of the turn to start, unlike sea amphibious attack), and attack from that location.

And always try to take advantage of flanking attacks.

Well, my tow cents.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: PaladinSix
Curtis,

On behalf of Harding and myself (and perhaps others who have trouble with this one), is there any way to convince you to overcome your reluctance to post a detailed AAR for the first turn or two of this scenario? My experience is essentially the same as harding's, and the map you posted above shows a level of success that I can only dream about.

I think I have the basic mechanics of this game down pretty well, and I don't generally have too much trouble with other scenarios, but I have been periodically trying to break the first day on this one for about six months with absolutely zero success. The result of the first turn always seems the same: either I get smashed up on the landing beaches, or I get a little ways inland but not in enough strength to hold a beachead. Either way, the beach hexes are either in german hands or full of broken remnants of my first attacks, so no reinforcements can show up.

I know I should probably move on and forget the whole thing, but obviously others have had success with this scenario and it really aggravates me that I can't come close to replicating it. I must be doing something fundamentally wrong, but I've tried every variation and tactic that I know and nothing works. I'm past the point of looking for fun; I just want to be able to put this one behind me.

PaladinSix

Well, I'll give it some consideration, but I know you'll have more satisfaction if you get to that level on your own. Think of it like Soduko. There's the one-star Soduko and then there's the five-star Soduko. When you're just learning Soduko you only play the one-star ones. But as you get better and better at it, you find that the five-star ones are the most satisfying. France 1944 is sort of like a five-star Soduko, and I wouldn't want to change that.

To get ashore you must:

1. Be able to properly manage your attacks to obtain the maximum number of combat phases. That means not wasting combat rounds with late attackers or combats that take up multiple combat rounds, while still getting an effective assault. Six or seven phases should be obtainable.

2. Properly employ the vast array of ranged elements at your disposal. This includes understanding the disentrenching principles and knowing which combats need to have them applied.

3. Responding accordingly to the revelation of enemy supporting units. That means that defenders with support need to be handled differently than ones that lack it. And if any such support can be targeted effectively it should be.

Really not that difficult. The very same skills that are essential for all other TOAW scenarios, but just raised to the top skill level.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: el cid

I have not played this scenario, but you must keep in mind that just for a sea amphibious attack takes 50% of the turn to start, so it is very easy to burn up your firts turn.

Generally, use the first 50% of the turn to bombard the locations you want to land at. And after each bombardment, check with your strongest unit if the enemy is willing to retreat before combat. If not keep bombarding. Then, when 50% of the turn has elapse, attack at full strenght.

If at any point you get a beach head, land many units there (sea landing does not take 50% of the turn to start, unlike sea amphibious attack), and attack from that location.

And always try to take advantage of flanking attacks.

Well, my tow cents.

Actually the assaulting forces in this scenario are not amphibious as I've designed the scenario. They start adjacent to the coast in the deep-water hexes. The above doesn't apply to them.

[Veers]

Actually the assaulting forces in this scenario are not amphibious as I've designed the scenario. They start adjacent to the coast in the deep-water hexes. The above doesn't apply to them.

However, while all of them start disembarked, some start in the water (the Rangers come to mind, and some US arty). This means they can only be involved in one combat round (however many rounds that combat round may be). This puts these units at a disadvantage. Why did you decide that some units be placed in the water and not on roads, as the rest are?

Regardless, those first few turns are a Son of a Gun, as I just tried 'em and took horrendous casualties...even on Utah beach. The extreme density penalties really exacerbate the casualties.

[harsmith]

thank you again for your reply. I feel slightly heartened by your description of this is a five-star sudoku, at least for the games that I have managed to progress inland, although I have never been able to break out as the Allies did historically. I will certainly take your comments on board and have another go at this.

one question though: why are the unit's strengths so high on your attachment? Is this showing summation of all units in the hex - none of my units have strengths anywhere approaching this. Forgive me if this demonstrates my ignorance of this game but most of my units have strengths of only between two and four.

[Veers]

ORIGINAL: harding
one question though: why are the unit's strengths so high on your attachment? Is this showing summation of all units in the hex - none of my units have strengths anywhere approaching this. Forgive me if this demonstrates my ignorance of this game but most of my units have strengths of only between two and four.

No, you have a good point. I was wondering, as well. Mine were all 5-4s ans 2-3s.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Veers
However, while all of them start disembarked, some start in the water (the Rangers come to mind, and some US arty). This means they can only be involved in one combat round (however many rounds that combat round may be). This puts these units at a disadvantage. Why did you decide that some units be placed in the water and not on roads, as the rest are?

You're right, and I've fixed this in the next version.

Regardless, those first few turns are a Son of a Gun, as I just tried 'em and took horrendous casualties...even on Utah beach. The extreme density penalties really exacerbate the casualties.

Attrition Divider is 4. That means losses are 2.5 times the rate of scenarios that use the default AD setting of 10. Note that this fact is significant and needs to be factored into your tactics.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: harding

thank you again for your reply. I feel slightly heartened by your description of this is a five-star sudoku, at least for the games that I have managed to progress inland, although I have never been able to break out as the Allies did historically. I will certainly take your comments on board and have another go at this.

I think you'll be glad you did. Get your game to that level and you'll know you're ready for even the best players. I'll still give consideration to generating some sort of "how to" AAR for the first turn sometime down the road.

one question though: why are the unit's strengths so high on your attachment? Is this showing summation of all units in the hex - none of my units have strengths anywhere approaching this. Forgive me if this demonstrates my ignorance of this game but most of my units have strengths of only between two and four.

Blame Ralph. [:-]

For some not so good reason he used the first "spare equipment" item for the T-64A. He didn't know that I had been using that item for the fixed supply units that arrive on certain coastal hexes upon Allied capture. That change blew those supply unit's combat strength off the charts, and the game automatically rescaled all the rest. Needless to say, that's been fixed in the next version (which was shown in the the screenshot).

I also have this same problem on my "Soviet Union 1941" scenario, although it doesn't rescale everything in that one.

If players are too impatient to wait for the next version they could fix it themselves in the editor. Just replace all the T-64A equipment with the second spare equipment item.

[Curtis Lemay]

ignore this.

[Veers]

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

ORIGINAL: Veers
However, while all of them start disembarked, some start in the water (the Rangers come to mind, and some US arty). This means they can only be involved in one combat round (however many rounds that combat round may be). This puts these units at a disadvantage. Why did you decide that some units be placed in the water and not on roads, as the rest are?

You're right, and I've fixed this in the next version.

Awesome.

Regardless, those first few turns are a Son of a Gun, as I just tried 'em and took horrendous casualties...even on Utah beach. The extreme density penalties really exacerbate the casualties.

Attrition Divider is 4. That means losses are 2.5 times the rate of scenarios that use the default AD setting of 10. Note that this fact is significant and needs to be factored into your tactics.

Yep.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: harding
BUT - I cant help feeling that the german resupply was very ahistorical- destroyed units seem to reform rapidly and there was none of the terrible attrition that the germans suffered historically. I remember reading accounts that they had losses of over 250000 troops and recieved replacements totalling 7000 or something like this.

Does the German player (PO) receive ahistoric replacements of men and equipment? if not, what are the recommended approaches to breakout and keep moving so as to get close to winning this game?

I thought I'd address some of these questions, too.

First, as to destroyed units reforming rapidly. In TOAW it's incorrect to think of reconstituted units as totally destroyed units that have been rebuilt from scratch. Rather, they mostly represent units that have "lost cohesion" for a time, then been "reformed". Note that much of the "destroyed" equipment from combats goes into the "on hand" pool, not the dead pile. So, even if I didn't provide the German side with any replacements at all, units would still reconstitute from such recycled equipment.

As the the actual German replacement values, I would point out that:

1. This is for France, not just Normandy.
2. Most of the divisions had their own replacement batallions to draw on, beyond any additional levys sent to the theater.
3. The Germans canabalized the non-combat elements of their divisions into combat elements. By the time of Cobra, divisions that had started out with 12,000 men were often down to less than 2,000. Needless to say, they hadn't started out with 10,000 combat troops, rather, non-combatants were reassigned to combat. I've modeled some of this with the unit TO&E, too.

Replacements are more art than science. But note that Allied squad replacements are at least six times the German ones.

Beyond that, note that while the two armies in Normandy were mostly destroyed, the forces in France also included the 15th Army, 1st Army, and 19th Army, as well as further reinforcements. Remember that the Allies were ultimately stopped in the fall.