If anyone is interested, a discussion of ground war game engines is being had over at Battlefront. Yours truly has finally stopped pussy footing around and taken a firm position. If anyone is interested in reading:
http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ulti ... 002167;p=1
I post this here not because I am looking for supporters or trying to fuel flames. Simply you might find this discussion interesting. In fact, most of you probably have a much broader base of experience with wargames than I do.
A debate on engines
Moderator: Arjuna
A debate on engines
2021 - Resigned in writing as a 20+ year Matrix Beta and never looked back ...
RE: A debate on engines
It's a extremely interesting debate, I would like to bring something directly related to this game, when you say:
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif,"] There is no denying that sales of RDOA/HTTR/COTA have not been stellar. It is a niche (war games) in a niche (hardcore) in a niche (no turns/hex/order delays/AI chain of command). Yet, it does have a following.
[/font]
I would add another point to the above, which in my opinion is why this system has still to get of the ground in terms of sales and fanbase. The choice of themes. (06 Maestro has already listened to me on this... [>:]) Basically, the first theme was sensible, the second, was not. I will not go too far on this, but this engine needs an Eastern Front theme soon, it needs also a Pacific war theme. I know way to many people playing wargames that instantly jump onto the band wagon when they see something even remotely related to the Eastern Front, youcan argue that there are already many titles out there, quite honestly , who cares about that? Have you seen any title on the Eastern Front that went bad on the sales? [:D]
[font="verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif,"] There is no denying that sales of RDOA/HTTR/COTA have not been stellar. It is a niche (war games) in a niche (hardcore) in a niche (no turns/hex/order delays/AI chain of command). Yet, it does have a following.
[/font]
I would add another point to the above, which in my opinion is why this system has still to get of the ground in terms of sales and fanbase. The choice of themes. (06 Maestro has already listened to me on this... [>:]) Basically, the first theme was sensible, the second, was not. I will not go too far on this, but this engine needs an Eastern Front theme soon, it needs also a Pacific war theme. I know way to many people playing wargames that instantly jump onto the band wagon when they see something even remotely related to the Eastern Front, youcan argue that there are already many titles out there, quite honestly , who cares about that? Have you seen any title on the Eastern Front that went bad on the sales? [:D]
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06 Maestro
- Posts: 3997
- Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 10:50 pm
- Location: Nevada, USA
RE: A debate on engines
Aha, Mr. JM Lima, it's good to see you here. Welcome to the CotA forum.
I think your observation about the Eastern Front theater is valid, but much more so for European players. For Americans, the Battle of the Bulge, Normandy/France and Italy are also of great interest-and should sell very well (N. Africa= 10,000 sales-just a "gut feeling"). BTW, I never found your arguments boring.
Thanks MarkShot for that link. It is an interesting discussion that could/may rival WitP “The Thread” thread in total posts. I’ll be giving my 2 bits soon enough.
I think your observation about the Eastern Front theater is valid, but much more so for European players. For Americans, the Battle of the Bulge, Normandy/France and Italy are also of great interest-and should sell very well (N. Africa= 10,000 sales-just a "gut feeling"). BTW, I never found your arguments boring.
Thanks MarkShot for that link. It is an interesting discussion that could/may rival WitP “The Thread” thread in total posts. I’ll be giving my 2 bits soon enough.
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies.
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
RE: A debate on engines
ORIGINAL: jmlima
Basically, the first theme was sensible, the second, was not. I will not go too far on this, but this engine needs an Eastern Front theme soon, it needs also a Pacific war theme. I know way to many people playing wargames that instantly jump onto the band wagon when they see something even remotely related to the Eastern Front, youcan argue that there are already many titles out there, quite honestly , who cares about that? Have you seen any title on the Eastern Front that went bad on the sales? [:D]
One major reason why I didnt hesitate over getting COTA was that it wasnt beating the same old horse as every other wargame seem to do. Panthergames went with a "new" theatre, that turned out to fit the engine perfectly. The diverse terrain, long winidng roads and airdrops became key features to show the dynamics of the game.
The eastfront is just long flat muddy steppes with tanks or hordes of infantry and I have never seen anything interesting in it.
RE: A debate on engines
ORIGINAL: Pergite!
...
The eastfront is just long flat muddy steppes with tanks or hordes of infantry and I have never seen anything interesting in it.
It's a bit OT, but that is wrong. Completely. On the Eastern Front you can have air drops , urban fighting , infantry battles, tank battles, every conceivable sort of terrain and weather... you got the picture, you may not be interested in it, and that's fair enough, but to reduce it to 'long flat muddy steppes with tanks or hordes of infantry' is just plain wrong.
Besides , I wasn't saying that the choice of the eastern mediterranean wasn't interesting, I was saying that from a strickly sales point of view, it wasn't the most sensible option. If the idea is to have a niche game , portraying unusual places in WW2 , then fine, but that seem not to be the case; if you think the next one will be the bulge, that completely ruins your argument of 'beating the same old horse as every other wargame' , because the bulge as been covered by nearly every major pc wargame series (notable exception the V4V/WaW series), but it shows that comercial awareness must form part of every project nowadays, it probably also proves that (correctly) Panther Games also see it that way.
I was just making my point from a commercial point of view, heck, I would like to see the First Indochina War covered, can you imagine anything more niche than that? [:D]
RE: A debate on engines
ORIGINAL: jmlima
... you got the picture, you may not be interested in it, and that's fair enough, but to reduce it to 'long flat muddy steppes with tanks or hordes of infantry' is just plain wrong.
I guess I over generalized... some [:D]
But my point is was that a land war in asia tactically has fewer options due to the terrain, and that the terrain handeling in this engine is excellent. I guess it could be interesting if they either scaled the game up or down to increase ranges or the detail in that kind of setting. OTOH, the command scope in the engine would really make a nice difference between russian and german players.
Dont get me wrong, I am willing to go where ever Panter games takes me, but I really liked the choice for COTA, it felt fresh.
RE: A debate on engines
Looks like another "Why the game I like is best & all other games suck" thread. Think I'll spend my time more usefully by actually playing the games I enjoy. Which, BTW does include CotA & TOAW3, among others.
I'll try being nicer if you try being less stupid. - anon
RE: A debate on engines
ORIGINAL: BAL
Looks like another "Why the game I like is best & all other games suck" thread. Think I'll spend my time more usefully by actually playing the games I enjoy. Which, BTW does include CotA & TOAW3, among others.
And that's a shame 'cause it started rather interestingly...
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Hoplomachia
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:52 pm
- Location: Denmark
RE: A debate on engines
jmlima: Basically, the first theme was sensible, the second, was not.
If you mean the COTA theme, I disagree on this. If you have an Airborne Assault series, how can you not do Crete?
Furthermore it was refreshing to see Operation Marita and the Greco-Italian war also included. Much too often game companies go for the 'selling' themes, whatever that is. So kudos to Panther Games for a 'courageous' decision.
Pergite: Dont get me wrong, I am willing to go where ever Panter games takes me, but I really liked the choice for COTA, it felt fresh.
Im with ya all the way on this, Pergite [:)]
Leonidas
RE: A debate on engines
ORIGINAL: Hoplomachia
... If you have an Airborne Assault series, how can you not do Crete?...
I could take the same stance and then ask you, if you have an Airborne Assault series, why to do the Bulge?...
As I've explained before, now for the 3rd time, I was refering to a point made on sales, and only on that, nothing else.
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HansBolter
- Posts: 7457
- Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:30 pm
- Location: United States
RE: A debate on engines
ORIGINAL: jmlima
ORIGINAL: Hoplomachia
... If you have an Airborne Assault series, how can you not do Crete?...
I could take the same stance and then ask you, if you have an Airborne Assault series, why to do the Bulge?...
As I've explained before, now for the 3rd time, I was refering to a point made on sales, and only on that, nothing else.
von der Heydte!
Seroiusly though, because of a desire to expand it beyond the obviously limited number of airborne drops that can be portrayed once thos have been portrayed. Which of course leads to the counterargument that the Normandy drops shopuld be done before the engine is expanded to cover non-airborne fights.
The simple truth is that while the engine was originally developed around airborne actions both HTTR and COTA have plenty of scenarios that depict or add non-ariborne forces into the fights so the engine is and has been capable of depicting non-airborne action for some time, so it is a natural development to expand the game line to non-airborne campaigns.
At the risk of offending my Aussie colleagues, it seems to me that there might just be a bit of nationalism, or at least regionalism, or at least of least loyalty to former colonial founders at work behind the scenes influencing the choices of campaigns to be depicted, at least up till now with the addition of the Bulge. Let's review the choices so far. Red Devils over Arnhem.....Brits. HTTR....Brits..and oh yea a few of those silly Yanks along for the ride. [:D] Cota...not just Brits but Brits with ANZACS! North Africa....Brits and ANZACS again. Bulge offers a diversion form the focus on Brits and ANZACS, perhaps as much from a standpoint of breaking out of the niche mold as much as from a desire to expand market appeal.
Please don't take this as an insult. Panther Games is a cottage industry and it's owner/developer is an Aussie. There is absolutely nothing wrong with him taking his company in a direction of depicting the historical actions of his countrymen and their colleagues in arms. It just means he followed his dreams instead of exploiting the available market. Now that he has had a chance to fulfill some of those dreams it sure can't hurt to expand the engine to depict more marketable campaigns and earn a little money to help support the realization of greater dreams.
Personally, I don't mind at all that Greece and malta were chosen for the next game in the series after HTTR. I eagerly approached the Malta scenarios thanks to years of playing Avalon Hill's board game of the assault on Malta. I have historically been less enamoured with Crete, but the COTA scenarios depicting the fighting there have been great fun to play. While I admit I have had less interest over the years for the campaign in Greece, it was a breath of fresh air in not rehashing campaigns I have been fighting and refighting in dozens of games through the years. The said, being the grog I am, I never tire either of a new game on an old subject, so I eagerly await the AA Bulkge scenarios.
We can debate to death in perfect hindsight the choices we feel Dave SHOULD have made, in the end the bottom line is that he made them and is looking forward rather than backward. Personally, I prefer to look forward with him rather than look backward and second guess him. [8D]
Hans
RE: A debate on engines
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
...
We can debate to death in perfect hindsight the choices we feel Dave SHOULD have made, in the end the bottom line is that he made them and is looking forward rather than backward. Personally, I prefer to look forward with him rather than look backward and second guess him.
I'm begining to wonder if my English is rather poor, or if I'm not being able to make myself understood.
I wasn't being critic in any way of the choices that were made, quite honestly, I'm quite happy that somebody produced an interesting and rather innovative approach to wargaming at this scale, just for that I would be entirely supportive, even if the choice of battle was the German invasion of Denmark.
I was just addresing a point made on another thread in another place regarding the sheer number of sales this games had, and was trying to provide an hint , of what would be (in my view) a way to increase sales.
RE: A debate on engines
Re Choice of Subject/Battle. It's rather amusing watching this debate resurface again and again. We chose Market Garden because IMO it made a great scenario. IMO it's the closest most finally balanced WW2 operation. Both sides get to club. The outcome could have gone a number of ways depending on decisions by the op commanders. It had elite troops, average troops and crud troops. It had a mix of armour and infantry actions. It was highly mobile, both in terms of strategic lodgements by airborne forces and by the mad scrambles on the ground for position.
Our original intention after that was to do the Bulge and then Normandy. But then we received heaps of flak from gamers who were sick to death of the well known battles on the Western front. Why couldn't we do something different, something less covered. So we took the opportunity and did COTA. And yes one of the appeals for me at least was that it did involve ANZAC forces. But each of the three separate battles covered ( Greece, Crete and Malta ) offer something different.
Despite the incredible terrain, Greece was a very mobile campaign. The Allies spent most of their time fighting a series of delaying actions, while the Germans were on a desperate timetable to wrap things up in time for Barbarossa. Many of the actions pit mobile German armoured forces against mobile Allied combined arms teams. Others involve major set peice assaults followed by pursuits. And we have taken the opportunity to throw in a range of what if scenarios where the Allies get to club back. ( I'll talk about "Gamble and Scramble" shortly ).
Crete on the other hand is mainly an infantry/airborne affair in restricted terrain. And while the action starts almost immediately there is surprising scope for manouvre through the rugged coastal plains. The Allies cannot trade space for time and so the battles are intense affairs - winner take all.
Malta is one of the great "what ifs" of WW2. It's possession dominated the western Mediterranean and hence resupply across and through this vital sea. Had Hitler given priority to it rather than Crete, the whole course of the war could have changed. The scenarios provided see either the Axis forces invading or the Allies trying to reclaim it. Both involve elite troops with plenty of strategic choices and plenty of room for manouvre.
Yes they maybe not that well known, but frankly that's what makes these refreshing for wargamers who have spent the last twenty years fighting the same old battles. A good operational commander should be able to throw himself into whatever situation confronts him. They rarely get to choose which battles they fight.
So now we are returning to the Bulge and for Battles from the Bulge ( BFTB ) we will be changing the series name to "Command Ops". We debated about doing this for COTA but decided to stay with the Airbone Assault series title for sake of brand recognition. But Command Ops better reflects the true scope of the series.
And while I am at it we will be shortly releasing a third patch for COTA that fixes a few reported bugs and includes two revised scenarios ( Foothills of the Gods and the Charge of the Centaurs ), providing additional reinforcement schedules for each of these - thus providing increased replayability.
The COTA Patch 3 will also include a brand new Gamble and Scramble scenario. This is a pure what if scenario which sees a major Allied flanking move on Elasson, with the aim of cutting the major German line of communications to its forces driving south. The Germans have only a very weak and battered Inf Regt in the area and so must scramble reserves from wherever. The scene is set for one hell of a clash between major armoured and infantry formations.
Stay tuned. [:)]
Our original intention after that was to do the Bulge and then Normandy. But then we received heaps of flak from gamers who were sick to death of the well known battles on the Western front. Why couldn't we do something different, something less covered. So we took the opportunity and did COTA. And yes one of the appeals for me at least was that it did involve ANZAC forces. But each of the three separate battles covered ( Greece, Crete and Malta ) offer something different.
Despite the incredible terrain, Greece was a very mobile campaign. The Allies spent most of their time fighting a series of delaying actions, while the Germans were on a desperate timetable to wrap things up in time for Barbarossa. Many of the actions pit mobile German armoured forces against mobile Allied combined arms teams. Others involve major set peice assaults followed by pursuits. And we have taken the opportunity to throw in a range of what if scenarios where the Allies get to club back. ( I'll talk about "Gamble and Scramble" shortly ).
Crete on the other hand is mainly an infantry/airborne affair in restricted terrain. And while the action starts almost immediately there is surprising scope for manouvre through the rugged coastal plains. The Allies cannot trade space for time and so the battles are intense affairs - winner take all.
Malta is one of the great "what ifs" of WW2. It's possession dominated the western Mediterranean and hence resupply across and through this vital sea. Had Hitler given priority to it rather than Crete, the whole course of the war could have changed. The scenarios provided see either the Axis forces invading or the Allies trying to reclaim it. Both involve elite troops with plenty of strategic choices and plenty of room for manouvre.
Yes they maybe not that well known, but frankly that's what makes these refreshing for wargamers who have spent the last twenty years fighting the same old battles. A good operational commander should be able to throw himself into whatever situation confronts him. They rarely get to choose which battles they fight.
So now we are returning to the Bulge and for Battles from the Bulge ( BFTB ) we will be changing the series name to "Command Ops". We debated about doing this for COTA but decided to stay with the Airbone Assault series title for sake of brand recognition. But Command Ops better reflects the true scope of the series.
And while I am at it we will be shortly releasing a third patch for COTA that fixes a few reported bugs and includes two revised scenarios ( Foothills of the Gods and the Charge of the Centaurs ), providing additional reinforcement schedules for each of these - thus providing increased replayability.
The COTA Patch 3 will also include a brand new Gamble and Scramble scenario. This is a pure what if scenario which sees a major Allied flanking move on Elasson, with the aim of cutting the major German line of communications to its forces driving south. The Germans have only a very weak and battered Inf Regt in the area and so must scramble reserves from wherever. The scene is set for one hell of a clash between major armoured and infantry formations.
Stay tuned. [:)]
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barbarossa2
- Posts: 915
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 am
RE: A debate on engines
-Market Garden...Not bad.
-Greece/Crete/Malta...Interesting, but limited audience (I LOVED the fact that they chose to do something that freaking America wasn't involved in...I saw it as ballsy...and it was!)
-Bulge...yes, it's been done a million times, but I think the COTA engine will give it a new spin and scale that I have not played it on before (am glad it can't do the whole theater in a way...). At first I declared to my friends I would not get it, but after enjoying the DIFFERENCE in gaming this engine offers, I will be there to get it after the first patch has been released (no offense...it is just my policy with ALL computer games these days. I don't feel I have time to do playtesting).
Now where for this engine?
-I would LOVE to see Italy (this thing would be awesome for Cassino, but maybe best done as 1 to 3 addon scenarios by someone with the time and know how).
-Someone said the French part of the war in Indo China! I WOULD LOVE THIS! How about Vietnam! PART I AND II in one release? The greatest battles of Vietnam? Freaking Dien Bien Phu. Hue. Ia Drang. This system would ROCK with added work for helecopters! I would THINK that Vietnam would sell well.
-But undeniably this system needs a few bread and butter sure fire hits so we don't lose it to attrition!!! I agree with some posters here. Panther needs one BANG UP eastern front scenario. Stalingrad has been done a hundred times. And people LOVE tanks. How about freaking KURSK?! I think this MUST BE AFTER BULGE.
AND EVEN THOUGH IT HAS BEEN DONE TO DEATH...
-Normandy. Yes Normandy. Once again, it has been done a hundred times. But NOT with this amazing engine which will only get better and better.
(Pardon me, when Christina Aguilera's "Candyman" video comes on, ALL work in this house stops for 4 minutes)...
Of course, as computing power increases, we'll have better and better AI and larger and larger battlefields. I just recently read that within 5 years, Intel hopes to be putting EIGHTY (80) processors on ONE freaking chip! Not two like today. Dave, you need to be thinking about farming tasks out to multiple processors for simultaneous processing instead of doing things being done linearly. This change in the way computers run will mean software will go in a different direction than we had previously grown used to. My health MAY preclude me from playing this system five years in the future. But I HOPE this system evolves into all it can be for gamers in the next generation! How I wish I could have had this game as a teenager, instead of Panzerblitz (though Panzerblitz wasn't bad!).
-Greece/Crete/Malta...Interesting, but limited audience (I LOVED the fact that they chose to do something that freaking America wasn't involved in...I saw it as ballsy...and it was!)
-Bulge...yes, it's been done a million times, but I think the COTA engine will give it a new spin and scale that I have not played it on before (am glad it can't do the whole theater in a way...). At first I declared to my friends I would not get it, but after enjoying the DIFFERENCE in gaming this engine offers, I will be there to get it after the first patch has been released (no offense...it is just my policy with ALL computer games these days. I don't feel I have time to do playtesting).
Now where for this engine?
-I would LOVE to see Italy (this thing would be awesome for Cassino, but maybe best done as 1 to 3 addon scenarios by someone with the time and know how).
-Someone said the French part of the war in Indo China! I WOULD LOVE THIS! How about Vietnam! PART I AND II in one release? The greatest battles of Vietnam? Freaking Dien Bien Phu. Hue. Ia Drang. This system would ROCK with added work for helecopters! I would THINK that Vietnam would sell well.
-But undeniably this system needs a few bread and butter sure fire hits so we don't lose it to attrition!!! I agree with some posters here. Panther needs one BANG UP eastern front scenario. Stalingrad has been done a hundred times. And people LOVE tanks. How about freaking KURSK?! I think this MUST BE AFTER BULGE.
AND EVEN THOUGH IT HAS BEEN DONE TO DEATH...
-Normandy. Yes Normandy. Once again, it has been done a hundred times. But NOT with this amazing engine which will only get better and better.
(Pardon me, when Christina Aguilera's "Candyman" video comes on, ALL work in this house stops for 4 minutes)...
Of course, as computing power increases, we'll have better and better AI and larger and larger battlefields. I just recently read that within 5 years, Intel hopes to be putting EIGHTY (80) processors on ONE freaking chip! Not two like today. Dave, you need to be thinking about farming tasks out to multiple processors for simultaneous processing instead of doing things being done linearly. This change in the way computers run will mean software will go in a different direction than we had previously grown used to. My health MAY preclude me from playing this system five years in the future. But I HOPE this system evolves into all it can be for gamers in the next generation! How I wish I could have had this game as a teenager, instead of Panzerblitz (though Panzerblitz wasn't bad!).
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
RE: A debate on engines
BB2,
We already handle multiple threads, which means we can take advantage of multiple processors. However, at tyhe moment we limit this to one thread for the AI, one for the UI and four for sound. Yes we do need to look at threading further the AI so it too can take advantage once we have more than two processors available.
We already handle multiple threads, which means we can take advantage of multiple processors. However, at tyhe moment we limit this to one thread for the AI, one for the UI and four for sound. Yes we do need to look at threading further the AI so it too can take advantage once we have more than two processors available.
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barbarossa2
- Posts: 915
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 am
RE: A debate on engines
I was just reading through the debate on battlefront.com. I would once again like to lobby for a free demo version of this game for download with a click through from banner ads. Getting someone to buy is really about knocking down barriers. If you could provide people with a simple introductory scenario and a nice medium sized scenario PLUS a great 10 minute introductory how-to video--or perhaps 20 minutes in 2 parts (all in same download package), that would go a long way. I would agree with the poster at battlefront.com, a free demo (that is EASY to find) is essential in this marketplace. I know for a fact that if more of the games here at matrix had free demos, I would have probably already been sucked into them. And note how I put that. "Sucked" into them.
XBOX 360 marketing people, with expansive and highly professional dedicated marketing teams and games that turn over $20 million, already understand this. Free demos have sold me on three or four XBOX 360 games I would have NEVER tried otherwise! Even after I had made every excuse in the book that I did not want another game... 1) No time. 2) Too little money. 3) Need to put more effort into hobbies which women find more attractive.[:D]
This Airborne engine is great. Not everyone will like it. But many people who have never experienced it, or thought they didn't have the time to experience it, WILL love it. You just need to take their excuses to not try it away from them one by one.
Take their choice away. Free demo!
I don't understand what would be so difficult about releasing a "stunted" version of the game which could not be altered to incorporate additional scenarios. However, I am not a programmer. Dave would understant this issue much better than I. Actually, what I would seriously consider doing is relasing the "stunted" version of COTA as a demo for Bulge. That way if someone manages to screw with the code and make it fully functional, the loss isn't that great. I don't know what HTTR is selling compared to COTA now, but I have a feeling it's not over 15% of COTA sales. But a "stunted" HTTR would be a great demo for COTA and require minimal coding time. I feel the pay off would be much greater than the investment.
As long as most other games on Matrix don't offer a free demo, this will be a competitive advantage over them. But for now, you are operating at a competitive disadvantage against every game that has a free demo somewhere in cyberspace.
Of course, you could also include a free 180 cm blonde, buxomy, gym slave with every copy of the game in order to negate concern number 3 above, but this is probably a little more impractical. At $49, COTA would be flying off the shelves. I believe Russians would be an economical choice. [;)]
My two cents.
Wishing Dave and Panther and this engine the best!
Chris
XBOX 360 marketing people, with expansive and highly professional dedicated marketing teams and games that turn over $20 million, already understand this. Free demos have sold me on three or four XBOX 360 games I would have NEVER tried otherwise! Even after I had made every excuse in the book that I did not want another game... 1) No time. 2) Too little money. 3) Need to put more effort into hobbies which women find more attractive.[:D]
This Airborne engine is great. Not everyone will like it. But many people who have never experienced it, or thought they didn't have the time to experience it, WILL love it. You just need to take their excuses to not try it away from them one by one.
Take their choice away. Free demo!
I don't understand what would be so difficult about releasing a "stunted" version of the game which could not be altered to incorporate additional scenarios. However, I am not a programmer. Dave would understant this issue much better than I. Actually, what I would seriously consider doing is relasing the "stunted" version of COTA as a demo for Bulge. That way if someone manages to screw with the code and make it fully functional, the loss isn't that great. I don't know what HTTR is selling compared to COTA now, but I have a feeling it's not over 15% of COTA sales. But a "stunted" HTTR would be a great demo for COTA and require minimal coding time. I feel the pay off would be much greater than the investment.
As long as most other games on Matrix don't offer a free demo, this will be a competitive advantage over them. But for now, you are operating at a competitive disadvantage against every game that has a free demo somewhere in cyberspace.
Of course, you could also include a free 180 cm blonde, buxomy, gym slave with every copy of the game in order to negate concern number 3 above, but this is probably a little more impractical. At $49, COTA would be flying off the shelves. I believe Russians would be an economical choice. [;)]
My two cents.
Wishing Dave and Panther and this engine the best!
Chris
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
-
barbarossa2
- Posts: 915
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:13 am
RE: A debate on engines
If anyone here is following the debate over at Battlefront.com, here is the link for my post:
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 002167&p=3
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 002167&p=3
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori*.
-Wilfred Owen
*It is sweet and right to die for your country.
RE: A debate on engines
ORIGINAL: barbarossa2
If anyone here is following the debate over at Battlefront.com, here is the link for my post:
http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ ... 002167&p=3
I must say I tend to agree with you.
Even though the IGOUGO system has it's merits, and also it's place probably. I don't see why a strategic scale game (corps scale) or an operational (division scale) would need to be real-time, I mean, it's hardly the case that minute decisions would happen in real life, the time between an Corps HQ order was issued until it produced an effect was hardly instant, however at COTA scale, real-time is just peachy.
RE: A debate on engines
Excellent post over there barbarossa2, it's a shame the main protaganists of that thread seem to have picked up their toys and left...For guys who confess to be hard-core realism grogs they seem to think like luddites sometimes....[:)]
Gen. Montgomery: "Your men don't salute much."
Gen. Freyberg: "Well, if you wave at them they'll usually wave back."
Gen. Freyberg: "Well, if you wave at them they'll usually wave back."
RE: A debate on engines
ORIGINAL: The Plodder
...it's a shame the main protaganists of that thread seem to have picked up their toys and left...For guys who confess to be hard-core realism grogs they seem to think like luddites sometimes....[:)]
It turned pretty quickly onto a 'my toy is better than yours' thread...