RHS Level 7.757 files and new pwhex set uploaded

[el cid again]

Cobra and I have decided to do Level 7 - or to attempt it. It is going to be very hard - the sheer scale of the changes is the problem. What I call integration of the location file, the pwhex file and the art - making everything match hex for hex - is the issue - and mainly it is something Cobra and I must do.

Nevertheless, there is design philosophy involved - so we will post the files during work for comments - as is already the case for the map art. I am going to start on the West Map Edge - which changes radically - and is the "hinge" of the design. Where I place Aden and Capetown determine where everything else in all the other tracks ends up (since, unilike regular maps, these map edge tracks are PERFECT in range accuracy - to the nearest hex).

The Level 7 map is bigger than before. We already established we can set the cam files to 0,151 for both height and width - and that column 150 / row 150 behaves a good deal like column/rows 0 and 1 do (but 149 for some reason is normal). Meaning you can put land in column 149 - but not 150. We will use 150 like we now use 0 and 1 in 6 - as a ship track only.

In Level 7 the South Atlantic Entry Point (Tristan da Cunha Island) becomes the South Atlantic Meeting Point (named in the spirit of the North Atlantic Meeting Point of convoy fame) - and this is at the bottom of the display. Here the track to South Africa (moving to the left - because this is "the other side of the world" East and West are reversed) splits and TWO tracks move to the right - the one we already see in Level 6 (going up the West Side of South America to Panama and the Galapagos Islands) and a new one going up the Atlantic - terminating at New Orleans. At New Orleans the track moves on to Colon Panama - where you could theoretically make a circle and go back down the West side of South America. This is where the levels differ:

In stock you had British Entry/Exit points of Bombay and Kerachi

In CHS you had Aden and Kerachi

In RHS Level 5 you had Aden and Melbourne

In RHS Level 6 you had Aden and Atlantic Entry Point

In RHS Level 7 you will have Aden and New Orleans

In Level 6 things arrive earlier in the South Atlantic then they did in Level 5 at Melbourne
In Level 7 things arriver earlier still at New Orleans.

The idea is to let the Allied player pick his transit path - and the path - which is a speed/time/distance computer in effect - makes his map entry date be correct for his choice

What is unclear is "can we move Aden?" In several senses unclear. The range from Aden to various on map points is wrong - and it must be wrong - due to map distortion. [The range Aden to Capetown is going to be perfect, however - since the tracks permit this] But where we put Aden matters a lot - and has caused a lot of grief in the team. In another sense, Cobra wonders if we can sail "past" Aden - through Suez and Gibraltar - to the UK? So far the answer is no - but having discovered we can use column zero - the answer becomes "maybe"

Yet another thing is "can we open the Bering Strait?" - It appears distances are too great around the edge of the map - but "maybe" again. If so - which way? Probably not to the US East Coast. But maybe to UK - if we get it on the map somewhere "past Aden"? The more likely possibility is that we will get the US East Coast as another track from New Orleans - but you can ONLY sail to Panama or the South Atlantic. You can get to Aden - but only around Cape of Good Hope - not via the Med - is my bet. [You can do that now in Level 6 - except it is from the South Atlantic Entry Point]

Anyway - methodologically speaking - I will issue a pwhex when we have the West Map Edge defined - but the Eastern one still in its present form - more or less. This is the big deal - redefining Aus and NZ and adding Madagascar and a host of tracks in the SW corner. The East side is not even wholly defined at this point - and cannot be until the West is done - as we cannot know where things go until we have the tracks defined. Capetown is "moving West" - and Aden is "moving South" - to some degree.

[Dili]

Can every warship go trough Panama Canal?

[el cid again]

Yes. In WITP there are no warship size limits I am aware of. This is a problem - and one reason I have created "interior river systems" vs "exterior river systems" - so big ships cannot enter the upper Yangtze for example.
The Panama Canal is 110 feet wide and routinely passed ships up to 108 feet wide. With difficulty 109 foot ships can be passed. Now there were designs for ships that were too big - a US WWI era 18 inch gun BB would not have made it - and I gather neither would the Montana's. If you know a ship is too big - cover it with a house rule. But big ships really can pass - only a ship wider than 109 feet would be impossible.

[MineSweeper]

USS Midway CV41 - 113ft beam....I think this was the first US warship that could not use the Panama canal.....

[el cid again]

And since the Midways are too late for PTO - it isn't much of a problem. Only if the war lasts a good deal longer than history is it an issue. In RHS we allow Midway's only from 9/45 - and not even then in EOS (where it was decided to build the ships as Essex class and get them sooner). The historical war ends in 8/45 and RHS recommends the war end by 11/45 if you do NOT use atomic weapons - and 9/45 if you do. All scenarios forcably end on 1/1/46 - to permit players some latitude in ending a long campaign ( and none gives you any reinforcements after 1/10/45). So it will rarely matter. But a house rule a Midway could not use Panama is a good idea - because IRL it could not.

Similarly the Queens (Mary and Elizabeth) were 118 feet in beam - and should not be permitted transit of the Panama Canal. They are not in the game - but should probably be added to Level 7 after a certain date - as they made something like 35 round trips to Melbourne each. They should be required to use the South Atlantic Track - which they really did.

There would be no such restriction for Suez - good to a draft of 53 feet and 300 feet wide. But I don't see how to address the military issues of early transit of the Med - when it isn't a safe SLOC? So I don't expect this will arise as an option. On top of which I also have not figured out how to do it anyway.

[Dili]

Yeah i agree Med needs to be blocked or hehe merged with WITM

[MineSweeper]

Sid, the Qs would be cool to have.....what would be their load capacity be?... (25,000)[X(]
Would think that they could only use size 9 ports though....

[el cid again]

I would assume a player would only want them sent to a major port, but if we put them in you will see some players use them in lots of ways - even as assault transports. And in principle they could feed troops into any port or beach - by smaller craft. One of them retired to Long Beach - not exactly a Level 9 port - and they were commercially viable because they could use many ports. The real restriction should be political - and their capacity might tend to make players not want to lose them in the same sense politicians and generals didn't.

[MineSweeper]

Sid, the port of Long Beach is a huge port....more cargo goes through it than any other port in the US....[:)]
Still, I think including the Queens would be great.....if I can remember, I think the the Qs were never escorted (they were so fast, that no sub could even get close to make them a target)

Maybe if the player was to lose one - they would have to pay a large amount of PPs...?

[CobraAus]

Sid, the Qs would be cool to have

keels laid down and building

Cobra Aus

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Sid, the port of Long Beach is a huge port....more cargo goes through it than any other port in the US....[:)]
Still, I think including the Queens would be great.....if I can remember, I think the the Qs were never escorted (they were so fast, that no sub could even get close to make them a target)

Maybe if the player was to lose one - they would have to pay a large amount of PPs...?

Looks like the production point cost of a ship = its durability. And this = its VP value. Built in I guess.

Long Beach was once my home port - and it is a fine port - but it isn't the biggest of ports. I am ashamed to say the former Naval Base is now Chinese - a horrible mistake. [I am not anti-Chinese. I was married in China. But I am not an applogist for the Communist regime nor its policy - or even for corporations who trade with it without regard for human impacts - like Wall Mart. It is because I am pro-Chinese I think we should not be selling such assets to COSCO - the China Ocean Shipping COmpany.]

[el cid again]

A big problem was "where to put Aden?"

I had moved it from 2,3 to 2,14 - to preserve the range from the exit channel to Kerachi and Bombay which Andrew determined - which is remarkably accurate.

In that case the distance to other points - in particular Capetown - is wrong. So I was frustrated.

Now I have decided to return to the CHS solution - Aden is where it is relative to Kerachi and Bombay - and never mind where it is relative to Capetown - Panama - etc.

However, I have room (in my new column zero) to run a second channel south - so you can "take a different course" and "head towards Ceylon" - resulting in a two shipping channel form of Aden in Level 7. This mini-system is off limits to the Axis because I cannot build a large barrier system to prevent air ops issues. It is just a speed-time-distance calculator for the Allies to use from a major entry-exit point. Axis air ops in the NW map corner should be limited by the range TO the shipping channel. Allied air ops from Aden should be limited to air transfer ops - which can be to just about any base - either on the map - or on the new SW Map edge mini map (Magagascar) or the associated SW ship track bases (Durban and Capetown).

This solution has the merit of using most of the Level 6 pwhex file as is - just erasing the NW corner "land" by aden - and replacing the bend in the ship channel with a downward extension of it. It seems to work very well. So I will do this - and release the first study version of the Level 7 pwhex - to use with the new map art - for comment and NW map corner testing.

[MineSweeper]

PPs = Politcal Points @ if the Queen Mary was sunk, the allied player would have to pay 2000 points.....I read that the port of Long Beach has more contaniers going through it than any other port in the US....(Thanks Walmart[8|])

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Sid, the port of Long Beach is a huge port....more cargo goes through it than any other port in the US....[:)]
Still, I think including the Queens would be great.....if I can remember, I think the the Qs were never escorted (they were so fast, that no sub could even get close to make them a target)

Maybe if the player was to lose one - they would have to pay a large amount of PPs...?

My dad was on the Queen Mary going to ETO with the 29th ID, when an escorting Brit cruiser cut in front of them.
The QM sliced the cruiser in half and never even slowed down.
It was being escorted THAT day.

[MineSweeper]

Bob, was that ship the CL HMS Curcao(sp)....I could be wrong, but I read that the Qs could not be escorted in a normal fashion, because of their load....(15,000 troops on board)...30 knots and damn the torpedoes[:)] - no zig zag needed....

Brings up another point - did the Queen Mary have enough life boats in case of a sinking , loaded with almost a divsion of troops? I don't think so IMO....

The two ships were a strategic weapon against both Hitler and Togo....(QE and QM)
I believe they transported over 1,000,000 troops during the war....
Here is a good book -
http://www.amazon.com/Picture-History-Q ... 0486435091

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Bob, was that ship the CL HMS Curcao(sp)....I could be wrong, but I read that the Qs could not be escorted in a normal fashion, because of their load....(15,000 troops on board)...30 knots and damn the torpedoes[:)] - no zig zag needed....

Brings up another point - did the Queen Mary have enough life boats in case of a sinking , loaded with almost a divsion of troops? I don't think so IMO....

It isn't quite that simple. No zig zagging means that a submarine will have a hard time maneuvering into a firing position. But if the sub is lucky - and the ship's path is on a fire control solution intercept path - the sub could do her in. A Japanese submarine sank a US CA that wasn't zig zagging in 1945 - a famous incident. The cruiser was so close to an ideal track the sub captain backed off a little - to insure his torpedoes would be able to arm! He later got to testify before the US Senate about the case.

Troop ships don't have enough boats - but they carry lots of rafts. The Queens generally carried a brigade, not a division. And they were overloaded by civil standards - 2 or 3 times as many troops as they were rated for civil passengers - for which they carried enough boats.

[MineSweeper]

Zig Zagging makes it tougher on a sub to get into a firing position....but a ship that maintains a true course makes it easier for the sub to get in a good firing position (the Qs did not need to zig zag as they would simply run away from a sub threat) IMO[;)]
The Qs carried 15,000 troops at a shot (that is close to an equivelent of a US division)

These two ships were designed for 2 purposes (Speed and Luxury)....If I was a betting man, I would bet that an Iowa BB could not keep up with them....[;)]

Did not know about the Japanese sub commander testifing.....why did he do this?


What is real cool is the SS United States - 268,000 HP.... still retains the fastest western bound trans-atlantic crossing of any ship and it has not sailed for over 50 years (laid up in PA, USA right now)...this ship was clock at over 45 knots[X(]...it was built and subsidized by the US government beacause of the sucess of the Qs during WWII.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: MineSweeper

Bob, was that ship the CL HMS Curcao(sp)....I could be wrong, but I read that the Qs could not be escorted in a normal fashion, because of their load....(15,000 troops on board)...30 knots and damn the torpedoes[:)] - no zig zag needed....

Brings up another point - did the Queen Mary have enough life boats in case of a sinking , loaded with almost a divsion of troops? I don't think so IMO....

The two ships were a strategic weapon against both Hitler and Togo....(QE and QM)
I believe they transported over 1,000,000 troops during the war....
Here is a good book -
http://www.amazon.com/Picture-History-Q ... 0486435091

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stor ... 3013.shtml


On at least 3 occasions, the QM was credited with moving entire divisions, (nothing less).
Theit value should be obvious, (in a strategic sense), and it should be equally obvious why they were pretty much kept out of harm's way.

[MineSweeper]

Agree, these 2 ships played an important part to the allied victory...not much is mentioned in the books about thier part....[:(]

[MineSweeper]

Bob, I read that the CL Curacao was meeting the QM near UK and was acting as a AA cruiser to protect her from A/C ....this type of ship could do zilch to protect her from a U-boat....did she actually escort the QM across the atlantic?