Complexity

[randell765]

This is going to come off as a little bit foolish. I have been following this game a little bit and getting as much information from the forums as possible. But how complex is this game? Compared to mabey, War in the Pacific? Or if there is a different example someone can give me, that's fine. This game looks awesome, but then again, it looks like you would have to take 3-4 hours per turn for all nations.

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: randell765

This is going to come off as a little bit foolish. I have been following this game a little bit and getting as much information from the forums as possible. But how complex is this game? Compared to mabey, War in the Pacific? Or if there is a different example someone can give me, that's fine. This game looks awesome, but then again, it looks like you would have to take 3-4 hours per turn for all nations.

Not foolish at all. MWiF will be a fairly complex game but lots of that becomes second nature with a bit of practice. Much of the learning curve involves concepts which once understood don't require much thought any more. The combat gameplay itself can be quite quick as most of the units are on a big scale and there aren't all that many to move. End of turn phases for things like production can take a while but they're fun.

The game can be made more complex by the addition of optional rules. As the CPU is doing most of the extra work these entail, many players are likely to use them, as they really enhance realism and add some nice chrome. MWiF will also come with extensive tutorials to help one learn. It will be easier to pick up than cardboard WiF, and I taught my friend the basics of that in about an hour.

This game is so good, you'll have a ball learning it anyway and with a bit of practice it plays quite quickly.

Cheers, Neilster

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: randell765
This is going to come off as a little bit foolish. I have been following this game a little bit and getting as much information from the forums as possible. But how complex is this game? Compared to mabey, War in the Pacific? Or if there is a different example someone can give me, that's fine. This game looks awesome, but then again, it looks like you would have to take 3-4 hours per turn for all nations.

I believe that Neilster's reply is an accurate assessment.

You might want to got through the introductory tutorials posted herein, if you haven't already. There is also a long thread on the optional rules.

There are 4 shorter scenarios in terms of scope (not the whole world) and 5 shorter scenarios in terms of time (start after 1939). The full global war scenario is long (36 turns), but it starts with few units on the map. As the game progresses, more countries become involved and the number of units increases. Still, even at its peak, WIF has fewer units than most of the monster games I use to play over the board (e.g., Battle of Bordino, Fire in the East).

[marklv]

36 turns doesn't seem much to me.  It's not even one turn per month, more like one every two months! [:(]
 
Very disappointing.
 
 

[SamuraiProgrmmr]

Yes, BUT....

Each turn has strategic activity at the beginning and the end. Sandwiched in between are a variable number of impulses which would count as 'turns' in most games. While there are limitations, you can arrange to move many of your units each impulse.

36 turns easily translates into over 100 turns.

Trust me... This game is complex and very satisfying to play.

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: randell765

This is going to come off as a little bit foolish. I have been following this game a little bit and getting as much information from the forums as possible. But how complex is this game? Compared to mabey, War in the Pacific? Or if there is a different example someone can give me, that's fine. This game looks awesome, but then again, it looks like you would have to take 3-4 hours per turn for all nations.

I'm not sure how long turns will take on the computer, but your guess of 3-4 hours is probably not that far off the mark. Playing over a board means factoring in time for lifting up stacks of counters, checking charts, looking up rules, etc...; our group gets an average of one turn a night, and we play about five hours. This would equate to 180 hours to complets a global war scenario, but the computer should speed things up (150 hours?). Tournament players are accustomed to playing much faster, and if an over-the-board campaign can be played in 100 hours total, I would think MWiF might take 80 hours for focused players.

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: marklv

36 turns doesn't seem much to me. It's not even one turn per month, more like one every two months! [:(]

Very disappointing.

SamuraiProgrammer is understating it a bit... on average there are 7.25 impulses per turn, and a global war scenario would have 261 impulses.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

Yes, BUT....

Each turn has strategic activity at the beginning and the end. Sandwiched in between are a variable number of impulses which would count as 'turns' in most games. While there are limitations, you can arrange to move many of your units each impulse.

36 turns easily translates into over 100 turns.

Trust me... This game is complex and very satisfying to play.

36 turns, but with an average of 125 impulses played PER SIDE. 125 Axis Impulses AND 125 Allied Impulses.
A turn is composed of a variable number of action impulse where you move your armies, navies and air forces, plus all the steps & phase of the beginning of the turn (reinforcements...) and the end of the turn (production, partisans, us entry, etc...).

Our group is not amongst the fastest ones, and we complete the game in about 150 hours.

The computer game, played solo, is played in much less time, as a lot is taken care of by the computer, and a lot of convenient tools are here so that you do not look for a specific counters for tens of minutes, and you do not forget to move some counters because they are far away from were you are focused.

[coregames]

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The computer game, played solo, is played in much less time...

I never got out of 1940 when I played CWiF solo, but I was impressed with the organization and implementation (if not the presentation) achieved by Chris M.

Multiplayer MWiF will take time for coordinating activities on a side, but some of this can be taken care of in correspondence with your team-mates between sessions. I don't expect it to be twice as fast to play as over-the-board, but once people master the interface, I'm sure it will be noticably faster.

By the way Patrice, thanks for the tips on a Bayonne strategy -- they are really paying dividends in our current game [:)]

[marklv]

You've lost me here - what do you mean by 'impulse'?  Does this mean one move of any given icon?  I still don't see how this can stretch the game.  In some turns I might not want to do anything at all.  So the game could be over in half an hour!  Ideally, a game of this type should make one turn equal to one week, otherwise events like the invasion of Poland could take six months, which is absurd.

[Frederyck]

Before you jump to conclusions, please think about that there are thousands and thousands of player out there who really like this game, and in many cases think this is the best strategic WWII-game of them all. So give all these people the benefit of the doubt, ok?

Now, a quick rundown of how a turn works:

Each turn is 2 months. Each turn is comprised of a variable number of impulses. During a single impulse, all major powers on one side (axis or allies) gets to do stuff. After everyone on one side is finished, the other side gets their go in the next impulse. This continues for a while, and is dependant on, amongst other things, what the weather has been like so far during the turn and the luck of the dice.

During an impulse each major power on the active side (ie the side whose impulse it is) that is at war with another major power can choose between several different options for that impulse. These options are: Naval, Land, Air, Combined or Pass. If a players chooses a Naval Action during an impulse, that player gets an unlimited number of naval moves, a few air moves, but no land moves that impulse. If Land is chosen, you get an unlimited number of land moves, a few air moves, but no naval moves. A Combined gives you a little bit of everything. During an impulse, a unit (eg a MECH corps, a Battle Ship, an aircraft counter etc) may only be activated (moved) once.

So you see, that during a single game turn, for example July/August of 1941, the German player could easily sweep across the whole of the Ukraine, and at the same time force his way deep into the woods north of the Pripet marshes towards Leningrad, provided the weather stays good and the Russian player doesn't put up too much of a fight... [:)] If the turn continues for a very long while, that same German player might even have an impulse to spare for some naval action towards the end.

So really, don't worry that the game can end prematurely! You have to do *a lot* of things for a very long while before you can reach that elusive last game turn. [:)]

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: Frederyck
During an impulse each major power on the active side (ie the side whose impulse it is) that is at war with another major power can choose between several different options for that impulse. These options are: Naval, Land, Air, Combined or Pass. If a players chooses a Naval Action during an impulse, that player gets an unlimited number of naval moves, a few air moves, but no land moves that impulse. If Land is chosen, you get an unlimited number of land moves, a few air moves, but no naval moves. A Combined gives you a little bit of everything. During an impulse, a unit (eg a MECH corps, a Battle Ship, an aircraft counter etc) may only be activated (moved) once.

If an Air Action is chosen, the player can move an unlimited number of air units too.

As Frederyck said, each player can move all of his Land / naval / air pieces during each impulse, and conduct an unlimited number of combats (except in combined actions), so the Impulses in WiF FE are kind of the turns in the other wargames.

The trick is that a WiF FE turn (which is 2 months of real time) can have a variable number of impulses.
July / August turns typically have from say 7-8 to say 18 total impulses, that is from 4 to 9 impulse per side. So the German in Barbarossa will be able to move his land army 9 times if he wants, or 8 time and move his whole navy 1 time, whatever he wants. But he does not know how much impulses he will have in advance.

The variability of the number of impulses is dependant on the weather, and the dice. I explain :
On Impulse 1, the Axis (for example) move & fights. At the end of his impulse, he have to roll a dice to see if the turn is finished. The first 4 (or 6 ??) impulses, have no chances of finishing. Only the 5th (or 7th ?) begins to have a chance of finishing. The chance is to roll a -1 on the d10, which is impossible without modifiers. Possible modifiers are Intelligence, or if you took a pass action (a pass acton is : I do nothing and hope that the turns will end). If the turn does not end, the players advance a token on the Impulse Track (the Tmpulse Track tells you in which impulse you are, and what is the chance of the impulse to end) a certain number of boxes. The more the token is advanced, the more the chance of the impulse finishing grows up. it gets at 0 on 6th (8th ?) impulse, 1 at 7th (9th ?) impulse, 2 at 8th (10th impulse) and so on. The number of boxes you advance the token is dictated by the weather. It can be from 1 to 4 boxes. Good weather has a low number, and the worst of weathers has the higher number. 4 is exceptional, and 2-3 is more common.
After the token has ben advanced to the next box in the Impulse Track, the Allied have their move & fights, and then, at the end, roll the dice to see if the turn ends, and so on until the turn ends.

When the turn has ended, some administrative tasks are performed in the end of turn stage, such as computing us entry, producing new combat units, gaining intelligence, surrendering countries, determining the partisans activity worldwide, etc...

[qgaliana]

Randell,
 
Are you asking about WITP the computer game or the board game? 

[marklv]

Thanks for the clarification.  So an impulse is really more like a turn in a game like Strategic Command - right?  I see. 

[lomyrin]

And in addition to the player (side) doing his impulse and moving a lot of units etc, the other player (side) usually will have several opportunities to move or activate some of his units in a direct response to the actions of the player whose impulse it is.  There are a lot of interactions from both sides during a single impulse.
 
Lars
 
 

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marklv
Thanks for the clarification.  So an impulse is really more like a turn in a game like Strategic Command - right?  I see. 

Well, not quite.

In most games during one turn a player gets to move all his units, attack, then the opponent gets to move all his units and attack. That ends 1 turn.

WIF is quite different. There are a few Start of Turn activities (e.g., bring in reinforcements) that both sides do more or less simultaneously. Then there are a variable number of impulses (as Patrice described) which are primarily dependent on the time of year, with summer months (in the northern hemisphere) designed to have a lot of impulses and winter months designed to have very few. This is controlled by the probability table for ending the turn being different for each bimonth. And if the weather was previously bad/good then is it weighted to continue to be bad/good in the immediate future. Lastly, as Patrice noted, one side (or a major power on the side) can choose a Pass Action, which increases the chances of the turn ending. Personally, I think of these as Pray Actions, since you get to move zero units and devote all your energy to praying the turn ends.

During an impulse each major power gets to choose which branch of his service to focus on. The Commonwealth chooses a lot of Naval Actions to get his fleet out to sea, protecting convoys and such. Germany, Russia, France, and China choose Land actions almost all the time. It is harder for Italy, Japan, and the USA, since they often want to do both. Note that the choice of Action is by each major power, and each major power on one side can choose whatever type of Action he desires, unconstrained by what his allies do.

Also there may be an odd number of impulses in a turn, with one side having both first and last impulse in a turn. Particularly devastating is when your opponent has the last impulse in one turn and the first impulse in the next turn, but there are well thought out controls designed in to give the players the ability to influence when or if that happens (some luck of the die rolls too).

The design of choosing an Action for an impulse is perhaps the best feature of WIF, since it puts into the hands of the player the basic decision of "what do you want to accomplish now?". Most of the time you want to do a lot of things, and you have to set priorities for the turn, and think through the possible ramifications worldwide. If Germany opts for a Naval Action (or even Combined) in order to harrass the British shipping with submarines, then Russia gets the equivalent of 2 impulses in a row to straighten out their line and better organize their defenses. If Japan foucses on crushing China , then their Pacific fleet is going to sit around doing nothing for that impulse. Once the US is at war with Japan, the Japanese player is constantly being pressed by the USA & Commonwealth to fight at sea, while the Chinese are attacking him on land - arrgh!

Once the last impulse for a turn is over, then there are a lot of End of Turn activities, including production, conquest, and partisans, to name just a few of them.

Essentially, WIF has removed all the administrative tasks to the Start & End of Turn phases and placed all the good stuff about moving units and fighting into Impulses. This way, housekeeping stuff is kept to a minimum. Of course, the computer version (MWIF) simplifies that even more.

And lastly, WIF was designed to be played over the board with a lot of attention to keeping both sides interested and busy during a turn. As one side (Phasing side) moves units and engages in combat during an impulse, the other side (Non-phasing side) gets to respond. This is especially true during combat, with the non-phasing player frequently getting to make decisions about which of his units are engaged. It even applies to some movement too, with naval units at sea able to intercept enemy naval forces that pass through the sea areas they occupy.

At lot of rules, but none of them is stupid, and in aggregate they reenact the unit capabilities and decision making process of WW II quite well.

[coregames]

Lastly, as Patrice noted, one side (or a major power on the side) can choose a Pass Action, which increases the chances of the turn ending. Personally, I think of these as Pray Actions, since you get to move zero units and devote all your energy to praying the turn ends.

On a related note, units can become disrupted during play, indicated in the board game by flipping the counter upside down. For most units, this means they cannot maneuver or attack again that turn, unless they are reorganized somehow. Thus, as the turn progresses, you tend to have fewer and fewer units face up with which to accomplish your active goals. As a result, impulses tend to go quicker the longer the turn lasts. A good time to pass is when you are on the defensive and most of your units are flipped.

[Froonp]

Lastly, as Patrice noted, one side (or a major power on the side) can choose a Pass Action, which increases the chances of the turn ending. Personally, I think of these as Pray Actions, since you get to move zero units and devote all your energy to praying the turn ends.

I for one see the pass actions as political actions.
Nothing happens on the field, but the diplomats work in the back office. Negociations are called, secret meetings happen, and the military affairs are growing to a halt.

Example of a Pass Action for me : The end of the 1991 Gulf War. Bush (or Saddam) took a Pass action (secret negociations), the turn ended, and so the war, without the US forces approaching the enemy capital that was at their feet.

I kind of like seeing the pass action this way. Like in those old westerns when the heroe managed to talk the "villain indian" into not slaughtering him [:D].

[composer99]

So the game could be over in half an hour!  Ideally, a game of this type should make one turn equal to one week, otherwise events like the invasion of Poland could take six months, which is absurd.

 
On average, the Global War scenario (the 1939 start campaign) takes between four to six months to play, depending on the options you have picked (more chrome means more time taken), the amount of free time you have to play WiF, and the speed with which one side or the other capitulates.
 
That figure is for face-to-face games, where the players are assembled for a couple of hours at a time doing nothing other than playing WiF. A PBEM game takes a lot longer.

[SLAAKMAN]

WIF FE with all the additions is the best World War II gaming experience Ive had to date. Our latest campaign (Global Campaign '39-'45) took 9 months to complete moving an average of twice per week with 6 players and a few more kibbitzing on the sidelines. I think you would enjoy a game that encompasses every aspect of WWII and the "what ifs" house rules thrown in to spice it up. Definately the WWII game to end all games! [:D]