Tournament?

[jmlima]

Guys, don't know if this as been discussed before.

We have a ladder, why not have a tournament? It will give people the opportunity to enlarge their CotA abilites, and reeinforce the community links.

And maybe (hint) Panther Games can propose a suitable prize for the winner... [:D]

[Arjuna]

Sure one copy of BFTB to the winner. But I want to see at least a dozen players.

[MarkShot]

Didn't Gary try a tournament with COTA or HTTR. I thought it never really caught on as a concept.

I should point out something out here: When you attempt to do something to promote a product which requires active participation ... if this thing fails to achieve the level of participation anticipated/required it can actually have the opposite impact on potential customers. (Similar to: Great game, but why are the forums empty and quiet? Great game, but why can't I find lots of mods and scenarios? Great game, but why aren't there a wealth of fansites?)

Just my $0.02.

[MarkShot]

I just realized this is the public forum ain't it. Oh, well ... I'll leave my post anyway.

[06 Maestro]

A tournament would be great. Playing against conniving people is the most rewarding/challenging way to go.

I would vote for (if this was a republic); a non elimination series, one scenario of medium length/size, played once on each side (2 games per player), one change of opponent upon completion of game one. The player with the highest combined score from both his games is the Top General.

[JeF]

06 Maestro : good idea.

FYI, here is the Tournament Page that was set up for RDoA and HTTR tournaments, back in the days. Only two two-way matches finished. And some didn't even started.
I don't know what problems were. I guess time zones could play a large role.

As I did for Yakstock, I'm ready to host such a page for any of you if you whish to restart such initiative.

JeF.

[06 Maestro]

Your tournament page looks like it's ready to go-we just need some players to commit.

I'm wondering where everyone is at. I'm also wondering if CotA players take life too seriously. Is this a gaggle of work-aholics? You have to take time to smell the flowers, or digtal cordite, if you prefer. Be proud that you have a knowledge of history and an appreciation of military matters-be thankfull that there is something that sets you apart from the drooling sports fanatics.

This could be an opportunty for a long overdue R&R-set up your command post and enjoy the hot seat that you really long for. Win, lose or draw, it will be a blast.

[Hoplomachia]

I would certainly support such a tournament and I also think JeF's tournament page is perfect for this.

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
...

I should point out something out here: When you attempt to do something to promote a product which requires active participation ... if this thing fails to achieve the level of participation anticipated/required it can actually have the opposite impact on potential customers. ...

That's very true, however if you stick to the corner, awaiting for things to happen, then I'm pretty sure they will never happen. If the first tournament didn't work , than what's left to do is to see why it didn't. Maybe the scnarios weren't the right choice, maybe the players weren't commited to it, maybe back then the game was still pretty much an unknown thing. The first obvious thing is that it has tobe a short scenario , and you have to make some 'arrangements' with time zones, for example by putting the players onto groups according to their time zones, if the tournament format is 2 game, mirror, best overall scorer wins, there's really no need to have players from different time zonesplaying against each other, if you chose scenarios that are small it will probably allow for new players to try their hand since they are much more managable for newbies, and I could go on...

[MarkShot]

Well, actually when I posted, I thought I was posting in the Beta Forum. In that context, discussions are much more concerned with the potential impact various policies and practices will have on sales and the community. In the Public Forum, I say "Go for it!". Sorry, for my confusion.

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Well, actually when I posted, I thought I was posting in the Beta Forum. In that context, discussions are much more concerned with the potential impact various policies and practices will have on sales and the community. In the Public Forum, I say "Go for it!". Sorry, for my confusion.

Well , that can make me wonder though, if the idea is considered as probably doing more bad than good why should we take it any further?

To sum my thoughts, is a thriving PBEM (not really PBEM I know, but you get the idea...) community anything relevant to Panther Games, or are they happy with players playing solo and 'PBEM' is not that important? (If I'm making myself understood)

Note, that I have no idea whatsoever about the sales of these games when compared to, let's say, other Matrix titles.

[06 Maestro]

[font="times new roman"]Time zones can be an issue if you are playing a very large scenario which may take 8 hours of playing time to complete.  This would involve multiple game time match-ups which can be tricky when dealing with someone a third of the way around the planet.  If the scenario chosen could be played in less than 2 hours, the time zone of the players really should not matter.  Most anyone should be able to manage to make contact for the required time-given a month to do so.  [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]For a first time tourney, perhaps the idea of a very short scenario, such as Tanks at Platamon, would be a smart move.  No one could say they don’t have the time.  So, we could move on to the real issue-whatever it is.  Perhaps there are technical difficulties in making multiplayer work-difficulties that some would just ignore rather than take the time to figure out-or ask for help.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Regardless of the game, most players stick to playing the AI for whatever reason.  CotA’s AI is very good, so this adds to that comfort zone of solo play.  I’m certainly not anti solo play, but it should be recognized that multiplayer (or PBM) games are more interesting and challenging than AI games.  How to get players to try multiplayer games the 1st time is the big task.[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro
...Regardless of the game, most players stick to playing the AI for whatever reason. CotA’s AI is very good, so this adds to that comfort zone of solo play. ...

That's true. Both things. And I'm begining to be under the impression that probably PBEM gaming in realtime games is going to be always a residual part of the total gaming, and people are somewhat confortable with it.

And that's a shame. Because wargames can only be fully experienced against another human being, AI's are all very nice but in the end they are nothing more than programmed opponents working with the instructions the scenario designer inputs. They may be better or worse, but they aren't certainly a match for an human IF the terms are balanced. Of course if you make play balance, or winning conditions, completely against the human , then, even a most mediocre AI would do the trick. But that could take me to a long OT so I'm not even going on that direction...

[Arjuna]

jmlima,
 
Don't worry about Mark. This is one of those rare occassions where I think he's being over concerned. I'm all for kick starting this tournament. You have my full support. Go for it. And as I said we'll put up a copy of BFTB for the winner.

[Banquet]

I'd have a go at this if it came to fruition (read as.. die valiantly! [:D])

btw, jmlima, you may get a better challenge with a human opponent but you won't always get anything resembling a historical outcome. In my opinion a well programmed AI will be more likely to behave like the real life commander (I.e, no hindsight, political constraints, real FOW, etc)

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: Banquet
... In my opinion a well programmed AI will be more likely to behave like the real life commander (I.e, no hindsight, political constraints, real FOW, etc)

That would make (and actually makes) pointless simulating things like France 1940 , the outcome is obvious from the start if the French player sticks to the French strategy.
I usually distinguish between historical accuracy and historical outcome, if what you want is an historical outcome only, then you're better off seing a 'movie' of the battle being played, historical accuracy however , it's a different thing. The French had a doctrine, but they mismanaged their forces, and lacked the drive in some situations to react. That's what makes it worth gaming, to see if within the set of constraints they had the human can come up with more 'edge' for example in some situations, and change the outcome. For example, do you think it has any sense to let the BEF escape through Dunkirk? Would you do it if you were the field commander? That was a very close decision to let them escape, based solely on a set of political issues to which Guderian violently opposed. You can argue that Guderian & Co, had to do what they were ordered to do, and so when gaming it, your AI should let the BEF escape. If you know that from the start, what's the point in playing it? However if your human opponent is put on a deadline, so that is arrival to the ports is made BEFORE the BEF has any chance to reach them, then the situation is altogether different.

Besides, most AI's cheat, they usually don't have FOW for instance. And they set to a waypoint system dictated from the scenario designer, if you do something completely unexpected , something that the scenario designer didn't preview , then your AI won't react, and that's not because of hindsight, FOW or whatever, it's just because it wasn't programmed for it. That's not historical accuracy, nor historical outcome, it's just the actual limitations of the in-game AI's at present.

[Banquet]

I take your points. It depends somewhat on the quality of the AI and some off the wall maneuvering will leave the AI floundering in most games.

Dunkirk is a good example of what I mean though. To my knowledge it is still not entirely certain why the British were 'allowed' to escape at Dunkirk. Von Rundstedt was concerned about Arras. Rommel had exaggerated the strength of the British at Arras to make things look better for him. Rundstedt and Hitler were both wary of the wetlands surrounding the area that were not seen as good tank fighting country. They were concious of the need to not get bogged down as in WWI. The events at Dunkirk were also seen as something of a sideshow compared to moving on Paris.

Little of this would be taken into account in a 2 player game.. players tend to be overly aggressive and free from worries and unknowns that were present in the actual battles. 60 years of postwar analysis has left them with a far better picture of the battles and their units than the generals really had.

I don't want to play a wargame that never deviates from the historical path, but I also don't want to play one where forces are deployed in ways which they never would have been in reality.

Overall I won't argue that playing a human can be more fun and certainly more challenging than an AI. I am just pointing out that there are sometimes benefits to AI play.

nb, sorry I am taking this topic off it's intended discussion.. I shouldn't have mentioned the AI

[MarkShot]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

jmlima,

Don't worry about Mark. This is one of those rare occassions where I think he's being over concerned. I'm all for kick starting this tournament. You have my full support. Go for it. And as I said we'll put up a copy of BFTB for the winner.

Yep, everyone seems to have missed my point that I thought I was posting in the Beta Forum where it is the norm to critically review all ideas related to the game and community. Posting in the Public Forum is a different matter. Have a tournament! (Otherwise, I have been too busy to follow discussions for the moment. Busy setting up my next PC.)

[jmlima]

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
Yep, everyone seems to have missed my point that I thought I was posting in the Beta Forum where it is the norm to critically review all ideas related to the game and community. Posting in the Public Forum is a different matter. Have a tournament! (Otherwise, I have been too busy to follow discussions for the moment. Busy setting up my next PC.)

I understand your point. Actually, it was that fact that made me wonder about this tournament idea. That, and the fact that so far only a couple of players actually showed any interest on it...

[Intoxicated Man]

tournament then?