I am unable to send any shipping to the Calcutta Port except for "River Boats" from other river ports. Additionally, none of my "River Boats" will travel any farther than Calcutta into the ocean or even to Diamond Harbour.
I am playing RHSEOS v6.66 and the 6.66 micro-update (Japan as AI) with PWHEX v6.67 and Maps v6.66 with the Legend update.
Problems with Calcutta Port
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
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Buck Beach
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
Same problem I am having, RHS CVO, 6.XX
No problem creating convoys, they just won't go into open water..
No problem creating convoys, they just won't go into open water..
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Buck Beach
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
ORIGINAL: m10bob
Same problem I am having, RHS CVO, 6.XX
No problem creating convoys, they just won't go into open water..
I read your post and thread answers but the problem appears to be continuing. What about the issue of shipping from other sea ports not having access to Calcutta?
RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
Have not sent anything there yet.(New game under newest version CVO..)At RL saltmine at present..[:D]
RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
I think I recall El Cid talking about making closed river systems in RHS with shipping that won't go into the open ocean. I believe the mouth of the river is defined as solid land, so no water craft can cross it.
I don't know if this is the problem or not, but I just recall seeing the conversation.
Bill
I don't know if this is the problem or not, but I just recall seeing the conversation.
Bill
WIS Development Team
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davidjruss
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
Buck Beach,
With your game RHSEOS have you seen the AI invade Johnston Island and also Lahaina in the Hawaiian Islands on the first turn?
DavidR
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Buck Beach
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
ORIGINAL: wdolson
I think I recall El Cid talking about making closed river systems in RHS with shipping that won't go into the open ocean. I believe the mouth of the river is defined as solid land, so no water craft can cross it.
I don't know if this is the problem or not, but I just recall seeing the conversation.
Bill
That would do it. I guess everything has to go in and be taken out of Diamond Harbour. That would be Ok if the over land supply system keeps funneling all the various items in and out of the sea access port.
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Buck Beach
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
ORIGINAL: DavidR
Buck Beach,
With your game RHSEOS have you seen the AI invade Johnston Island and also Lahaina in the Hawaiian Islands on the first turn?
DavidR
Yep and shocked the heck out of me. I'm at 12/12/1941 and so far it has just given me lots of target practice. Also, I couldn't seem to get the Russians in a passive mode and Japan has its hands full right now.
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el cid again
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
The Ganges is the main transportation system of India, a gigantic waterway, but not entirely suitable for ocean shipping. Smaller ocean ships can indeed pass upriver during the WWII era (not today - a dam and silting prevents it now). But big ships cannot. Since WITP has no mechanism to limit ships - I created an "interior river system" that goes almost to Dehli, way up to Ledo, and down to Calcutta and Dacca. But it does NOT connect to the sea - see the green hex sides? The interior ships can sail INSIDE the system. Ocean ships use Daimond Harbor - which is substantially true in the period and completely true today. The one hex rail line means this works fine.
There is a similar divide halfway up the Yantze River at Wuhan. Two of the three Wuhan hexes are on the "interior" Upper Yangtze and one of them is on the "exterior" Lower Yangtze.
The Yellow River is more divided still. The exterior river is only one hex long and only at the mouth of the "Old Yellow River" - the mouth of the new Yellow River is more or less dry - and only inland do you see the interior river system start at Kaifeng. But it goes a long way from there all the way to Sinning.
There is a vast interior river system up on the border with Russia. The Sungari/Ussuri/Amur river system has NO external component and is ENTIRELY an interior river system. This in spite of the fact ocean ships are built at Nikolaevsk. They float down the river with special floation and fit out at Vladivostok - never able to return - as it is a shallow (but broad) river. At Khabarovsk the river is many km across - you cannot see across it. This is a very important river system with lots of ships - mini-navies in fact.
The Mekong is truly wierd. It has two interior river systems - divided at a waterfall on the Cambodian border. In the winter (dry season) the upper one will also break - and Luangprabang be cut off from it - because the water goes to only 1.5 meters deep instead of its 100 meters deep in the wet season!
There are some tricky external river systems. I added two - one up in Russia at Magadan (BOTH ports upriver are EXTERIOR ports) and one in Northern Australia near Darwin (Timber Creek is a significant EXTERIOR port, outlet for the biggest cattle station in Australia or the world, among other things) - but I found some others put in the game by Andrew with no fanfare. If enemy players are clever, you may have a problem - so "watch your back." There is also an exterior river system in the Gulf of Carpenteria. Normanton is both inland and an exterior port of some significance - once touted as an alternative to Darwin - you can build it up. Or the enemy can invade by it too.
In all cases, these are significant waterways. But we didn't want river craft crossing the ocean and we didn't want battleships upriver unless the water was deep enough - so we divided them into interior and exterior systems.
There is a similar divide halfway up the Yantze River at Wuhan. Two of the three Wuhan hexes are on the "interior" Upper Yangtze and one of them is on the "exterior" Lower Yangtze.
The Yellow River is more divided still. The exterior river is only one hex long and only at the mouth of the "Old Yellow River" - the mouth of the new Yellow River is more or less dry - and only inland do you see the interior river system start at Kaifeng. But it goes a long way from there all the way to Sinning.
There is a vast interior river system up on the border with Russia. The Sungari/Ussuri/Amur river system has NO external component and is ENTIRELY an interior river system. This in spite of the fact ocean ships are built at Nikolaevsk. They float down the river with special floation and fit out at Vladivostok - never able to return - as it is a shallow (but broad) river. At Khabarovsk the river is many km across - you cannot see across it. This is a very important river system with lots of ships - mini-navies in fact.
The Mekong is truly wierd. It has two interior river systems - divided at a waterfall on the Cambodian border. In the winter (dry season) the upper one will also break - and Luangprabang be cut off from it - because the water goes to only 1.5 meters deep instead of its 100 meters deep in the wet season!
There are some tricky external river systems. I added two - one up in Russia at Magadan (BOTH ports upriver are EXTERIOR ports) and one in Northern Australia near Darwin (Timber Creek is a significant EXTERIOR port, outlet for the biggest cattle station in Australia or the world, among other things) - but I found some others put in the game by Andrew with no fanfare. If enemy players are clever, you may have a problem - so "watch your back." There is also an exterior river system in the Gulf of Carpenteria. Normanton is both inland and an exterior port of some significance - once touted as an alternative to Darwin - you can build it up. Or the enemy can invade by it too.
In all cases, these are significant waterways. But we didn't want river craft crossing the ocean and we didn't want battleships upriver unless the water was deep enough - so we divided them into interior and exterior systems.
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Buck Beach
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
Thanks Sid that explains it well. BTW I love the River Boat concept and detail.
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Buck Beach
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
ORIGINAL: el cid again
The Ganges is the main transportation system of India, a gigantic waterway, but not entirely suitable for ocean shipping. Smaller ocean ships can indeed pass upriver during the WWII era (not today - a dam and silting prevents it now). But big ships cannot. Since WITP has no mechanism to limit ships - I created an "interior river system" that goes almost to Dehli, way up to Ledo, and down to Calcutta and Dacca. But it does NOT connect to the sea - see the green hex sides? The interior ships can sail INSIDE the system. Ocean ships use Diamond Harbor - which is substantially true in the period and completely true today. The one hex rail line means this works fine.
There is a similar divide halfway up the Yantze River at Wuhan. Two of the three Wuhan hexes are on the "interior" Upper Yangtze and one of them is on the "exterior" Lower Yangtze.
The Yellow River is more divided still. The exterior river is only one hex long and only at the mouth of the "Old Yellow River" - the mouth of the new Yellow River is more or less dry - and only inland do you see the interior river system start at Kaifeng. But it goes a long way from there all the way to Sinning.
There is a vast interior river system up on the border with Russia. The Sungari/Ussuri/Amur river system has NO external component and is ENTIRELY an interior river system. This in spite of the fact ocean ships are built at Nikolaevsk. They float down the river with special floation and fit out at Vladivostok - never able to return - as it is a shallow (but broad) river. At Khabarovsk the river is many km across - you cannot see across it. This is a very important river system with lots of ships - mini-navies in fact.
The Mekong is truly wierd. It has two interior river systems - divided at a waterfall on the Cambodian border. In the winter (dry season) the upper one will also break - and Luangprabang be cut off from it - because the water goes to only 1.5 meters deep instead of its 100 meters deep in the wet season!
There are some tricky external river systems. I added two - one up in Russia at Magadan (BOTH ports upriver are EXTERIOR ports) and one in Northern Australia near Darwin (Timber Creek is a significant EXTERIOR port, outlet for the biggest cattle station in Australia or the world, among other things) - but I found some others put in the game by Andrew with no fanfare. If enemy players are clever, you may have a problem - so "watch your back." There is also an exterior river system in the Gulf of Carpenteria. Normanton is both inland and an exterior port of some significance - once touted as an alternative to Darwin - you can build it up. Or the enemy can invade by it too.
In all cases, these are significant waterways. But we didn't want river craft crossing the ocean and we didn't want battleships upriver unless the water was deep enough - so we divided them into interior and exterior systems.
Cid, this is an old moldy thread, but since it has some of the initial information relating to your riverport concept (a damn good one for PBEM games IMO), I thought I would resurrect it for a request. Since we can't have the riverports in the RHSAIO and RHSCAIO, can we possible have Calcutta port (and Diamond Harbour) reset to allow normal shipping with whatever size that was appropriate at the time?
If there are other such ports that you can think of needing a step back that would be nice also.
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el cid again
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
Well - sure you can. But it is a technical mistake.
I once took the position that Calcutta should be an ocean port - having sailed there on an ocean ship. But it turns out Andrew coded this right. Where we land with ships is indeed what on our map, and in that era, was called Diamond Harbor. IF we allow ocean ships to sail to Calcutta, you facilitate IJN Yamato going there to bombard it, and landing forces landing directly on it, making the defense of the critical bottleneck of India even weaker than it now is.
IF you want to do this anyway - edit the pwhex file so the green hexside between Calcutta and Diamond Harbor is white. Do that to both hexsides - the one in Diamond Harbor hex and the one in Calcutta hex. ALSO - block the Ganges hexside - or the ENTIRE Ganges / Bhramaputra river system (which STILL exists) - will become open to ocean shipping.
Finally, you must recode Calcutta as a port instead of an airfield.
Gaming and modding are art forms. They mainly involve compromises. This is inherantly difficult to do - and impossible to do and please everyone (witness the thread lamenting the absense of Tiger Force in 1946, and arguing we don't need the Russians, or even the Chinese, so we can rob slots from them!). But in my view it is better modeling to have the ships use Diamond Harbor - which they did and do really use - than Calcutta - which is more of a river port in the modern era. Older eras are a different subject: ships were smaller, and the problems caused by humans which made lower Ganges silting get out of control were fewer. Today NO ship can pass upriver at all - so bad is the silting - and that because of a badly engineered dam system. I learned all this during debates on this matter - and I didn't know most of it. Originally I wanted to make the Ganges like the Yangtze - so you can sail upriver. It is - and was then - the most important LOC in India. I had to settle for the interior river system. Maybe even that is why I invented it.
I once took the position that Calcutta should be an ocean port - having sailed there on an ocean ship. But it turns out Andrew coded this right. Where we land with ships is indeed what on our map, and in that era, was called Diamond Harbor. IF we allow ocean ships to sail to Calcutta, you facilitate IJN Yamato going there to bombard it, and landing forces landing directly on it, making the defense of the critical bottleneck of India even weaker than it now is.
IF you want to do this anyway - edit the pwhex file so the green hexside between Calcutta and Diamond Harbor is white. Do that to both hexsides - the one in Diamond Harbor hex and the one in Calcutta hex. ALSO - block the Ganges hexside - or the ENTIRE Ganges / Bhramaputra river system (which STILL exists) - will become open to ocean shipping.
Finally, you must recode Calcutta as a port instead of an airfield.
Gaming and modding are art forms. They mainly involve compromises. This is inherantly difficult to do - and impossible to do and please everyone (witness the thread lamenting the absense of Tiger Force in 1946, and arguing we don't need the Russians, or even the Chinese, so we can rob slots from them!). But in my view it is better modeling to have the ships use Diamond Harbor - which they did and do really use - than Calcutta - which is more of a river port in the modern era. Older eras are a different subject: ships were smaller, and the problems caused by humans which made lower Ganges silting get out of control were fewer. Today NO ship can pass upriver at all - so bad is the silting - and that because of a badly engineered dam system. I learned all this during debates on this matter - and I didn't know most of it. Originally I wanted to make the Ganges like the Yangtze - so you can sail upriver. It is - and was then - the most important LOC in India. I had to settle for the interior river system. Maybe even that is why I invented it.
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el cid again
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
I just "invented" something - thinking about this:
what if RIVER vessels can go to sea- but ocean vessels cannot go upriver???
I can do that!
Opinion requested.
what if RIVER vessels can go to sea- but ocean vessels cannot go upriver???
I can do that!
Opinion requested.
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Buck Beach
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
ORIGINAL: el cid again
But in my view it is better modeling to have the ships use Diamond Harbor - which they did and do really use - than Calcutta - which is more of a river port in the modern era.
The problem is that it is a level 4 airbase at the begining of the game with a potential to build to a max 6. It is the largest supply base in the area and quickly builds and sustains a large amount them. Without being able to achieve a combination port and base 10 or greater there will be quite an ongoing supply spoilage through out the war. If its perceived that the Japanese invasion and/or bombardment is a greater threat that the loss of supplies and if you are saying that WWII was in the modern era and that Diamond Harbor was used in lieu of Calcutta in RL, then I sure am in favor of your change.
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Buck Beach
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I just "invented" something - thinking about this:
what if RIVER vessels can go to sea- but ocean vessels cannot go upriver???
I can do that!
Opinion requested.
This was posted while I was responding to the previous post.
This idea could/would be the solution.
Edit: However, you could not re-establish the other riverports because the Japanese larger ship supply TF would still try to send supplies there in vain and stall.
Still thinking: But wouldn't the invasion and bombarment TF stall also.
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ny59giants
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
Can Calcutta still have a port that can be built up even if the pwhex doesn't allow shipping in?? This would by pass the spoilage issue.
I'm at the end of 12/41 in RHSRAO PBEM and I would like to move my barges from Burma/Ragoon area to India instead of having to slowly move them upriver until they are all sunk.
I'm at the end of 12/41 in RHSRAO PBEM and I would like to move my barges from Burma/Ragoon area to India instead of having to slowly move them upriver until they are all sunk.
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el cid again
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
You are misunderstanding the reason Calcutta can NOT be a port in AIO - AI cannot deal with it. So in AIO - no - we cannot make Calcutta a port.
In NON AIO scenarios - Calcutta IS a port.
In ALL forms of RHS the Allies MUST be played by humans (as indeed all forms of WITP - ignoring this leads to awful play). So humans should be able to prevent building up the port at Calcutta if they don't want to do that. Just set it not to build. IF it is NOT built up - THEN Calcutta will not be as major of a supply draw point.
AI will respond to where you put HQ - and where you put units - air units in particular. So you can influence where supplies flow to. Similarly, AI will "refill" Diamond Harbor if you empty cargo out of it.
I do not understand what your problems are with Calcutta? It seems to work fine to me.
In NON AIO scenarios - Calcutta IS a port.
In ALL forms of RHS the Allies MUST be played by humans (as indeed all forms of WITP - ignoring this leads to awful play). So humans should be able to prevent building up the port at Calcutta if they don't want to do that. Just set it not to build. IF it is NOT built up - THEN Calcutta will not be as major of a supply draw point.
AI will respond to where you put HQ - and where you put units - air units in particular. So you can influence where supplies flow to. Similarly, AI will "refill" Diamond Harbor if you empty cargo out of it.
I do not understand what your problems are with Calcutta? It seems to work fine to me.
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el cid again
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
ORIGINAL: Buck Beach
ORIGINAL: el cid again
I just "invented" something - thinking about this:
what if RIVER vessels can go to sea- but ocean vessels cannot go upriver???
I can do that!
Opinion requested.
This was posted while I was responding to the previous post.
This idea could/would be the solution.
Edit: However, you could not re-establish the other riverports because the Japanese larger ship supply TF would still try to send supplies there in vain and stall.
Still thinking: But wouldn't the invasion and bombarment TF stall also.
This is not really a solution for AIO. There are no river vessels OR river ports in AIO - so even though vessels could go to sea - there are none to go. It is a meaningful idea only for non AIO scenarios - and so I don't think it is a "solution" to your problem here - whatever it is.
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Buck Beach
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
ORIGINAL: el cid again
and so I don't think it is a "solution" to your problem here - whatever it is.
I will state it again it case you missed it. I am concerned about spoilage in Calcutta (a major base in the area) and it not being able to build to a non-spoilage level. If you do not perceive this as a problem, I understand, however your point is missed with not having other riverports in AIO. While Portland, Oregon, and others, are location wise very different they are still riverports. I am fully aware of the problems relating to the riverport bases, but, there are exceptions and I am wondering out loud if Calcutta should be one. THAT IS THE ISSUE.
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el cid again
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RE: Problems with Calcutta Port
Got it. Yes - you did say that. I forgot that particular point however.
I do not see it as a problem.
In general, I do not worry about what is beyond my control. In this case, spoilage is set as it is set, and I never even think about it - as a modder or as a player. Wether or not it is set properly - it may also be about to change. "Many fundamentals will change with the next patch." Seems like a bad time to do something because of a code which may or not be the same, and which I may or may not agree with, depending on how it was reasoned out.
But IF I have an opinion on spoilage, it is that NO LOCATION should be exempt from it. So - if I succeeded unintentionally in making another such place - I am more happy than sad - assuming that this (not carefully worked through) quick and dirty opinion turns out to be one I like in the longer run.
I think you are a very analytical person to have become concerned with this as an issue at all. Wow. And there is this merit to your concern: if Calcutta builds up above the level of the spoilage cutoff - and if it cannot in AIO - it is a DIFFERENCE I didn't intend between them.
I can rationalize it however: to the extent it makes the (human controlled) Allies worse off, it helps the (AI controlled) Axis of AIO - and we need more stuff like that - to make AI more challenging. So while in this sense it is a problem (I meant Calcutta to be the same other than losing its port status) - it is one I can live with.
And there is a solution if you think we need one: I can increase the airfield build to the point it can build up to the right level - IF we know that that level is?
I do not see it as a problem.
In general, I do not worry about what is beyond my control. In this case, spoilage is set as it is set, and I never even think about it - as a modder or as a player. Wether or not it is set properly - it may also be about to change. "Many fundamentals will change with the next patch." Seems like a bad time to do something because of a code which may or not be the same, and which I may or may not agree with, depending on how it was reasoned out.
But IF I have an opinion on spoilage, it is that NO LOCATION should be exempt from it. So - if I succeeded unintentionally in making another such place - I am more happy than sad - assuming that this (not carefully worked through) quick and dirty opinion turns out to be one I like in the longer run.
I think you are a very analytical person to have become concerned with this as an issue at all. Wow. And there is this merit to your concern: if Calcutta builds up above the level of the spoilage cutoff - and if it cannot in AIO - it is a DIFFERENCE I didn't intend between them.
I can rationalize it however: to the extent it makes the (human controlled) Allies worse off, it helps the (AI controlled) Axis of AIO - and we need more stuff like that - to make AI more challenging. So while in this sense it is a problem (I meant Calcutta to be the same other than losing its port status) - it is one I can live with.
And there is a solution if you think we need one: I can increase the airfield build to the point it can build up to the right level - IF we know that that level is?