Tactical Combat Questions

[XLegion]

1.) Why do men 'go out of command' so often in my tactical games? It seems every turn I'm clicking on the restore command button for those units that have stars? Is there anything a player can do to prevent 'going out of command'? I have seen units that are stationary in a firefight go out of command, and then after I place them 'in command' again they go out of command. What gives?

2.) Someone mentioned this before but does the AI use supply? It seems sometimes like it doesn't. And what is the criteria for going out of supply? I have had units that appear to have 10 rounds go out of supply in a single turn.

2.) How do you rally units? It seems to be totally automatic. Your general appears out of nowhere and a magic yellow circle appears around the unit in question and bingo, he is rallied? Can I have any effect on this?

I find tactical combat rather frustrating. I'm playing only at the captain level and all it seems I do is put men 'back in command' and shuffle supply wagons.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: XLegion
1.) Why do men 'go out of command' so often in my tactical games? It seems every turn I'm clicking on the restore command button for those units that have stars? Is there anything a player can do to prevent 'going out of command'? I have seen units that are stationary in a firefight go out of command, and then after I place them 'in command' again they go out of command. What gives?

Unit quality in battle (combination of quality + disposition) makes a huge difference here. There are several research routes that also help, as do the signal corps attributes you can purchase for units. Finally, units that are hard hit will tend to go out of command more than units that are lightly engaged so the worse things go, the more the battle will tend to go out of your control. A great leader has enough restore chances to keep even a tough battle in command, but the tendency in battle is towards chaos and not central control and this reflects that.

2.) Someone mentioned this before but does the AI use supply? It seems sometimes like it doesn't. And what is the criteria for going out of supply? I have had units that appear to have 10 rounds go out of supply in a single turn.

Yes, it does use supply. Every time a unit fires, it uses 1-3 supply (this is in the manual too), depending largely on how "effective" its fire was. So if you fire with one of your units and then it is fired at three times in the same turn (thus returning fire three times), it's possible it could use up 10 supply in a turn (range of 4 - 12).

2.) How do you rally units? It seems to be totally automatic. Your general appears out of nowhere and a magic yellow circle appears around the unit in question and bingo, he is rallied? Can I have any effect on this?

It's automatic, but it's based on the generals you have on the field. Eric posted some info on this in the main forum but basically a general's command rating determines whether he has a chance to rally on a given turn. The best generals can rally almost every turn. Then, the general's rank matters too - a 2 star can rally units in his own division, but not routed units from another division, whereas a 4 star can rally a unit anywhere on the map. The generals don't actually "appear" or "move" while doing this. It represents the overall cohesion they impose on the force. It can be a junior officer sent by the general, or a rally/straggler line he set up, etc.

I find tactical combat rather frustrating. I'm playing only at the captain level and all it seems I do is put men 'back in command' and shuffle supply wagons.

I would recommend keeping at it and re-reading the parts in the manual on detailed combat. It's a very enjoyable part of the game once you get the hang of it, but it's also probably the most complex part of the game and there's a lot to learn. Playing with the Attack Report On will help you understand what your units are doing in combat and why, but re-reading the manual is the best way to put it all together. Feel free to keep posting here with any specific questions too!

Regards,

- Erik

[Gil R.]

Purchasing the "Signal Corps" brigade attribute reduces the chance of units going out of command. Also, promoting generals who can teach the special ability "Obedient" will have this effect.

Another issue is that less experienced units are more likely to go out of command -- a detail that mirrors historical reality. As your units gain experience (and thus quality) this will happen less and less often. (We're particularly proud of this detail. The frustration you feel was felt by many a Civil War commander...)

I believe that rallying is completely automatic.

As for supply, I know of no evidence that the AI isn't using it. Regarding your own supply, might those units that went from 10 to 0 have engaged in fire fights started by other units, in addition to initiating firing themselves?

EDIT: Hmm. Looks like Erik and I were typing responses at the same time, but I got a phone call whereas he didn't...

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: XLegion

1.) Why do men 'go out of command' so often in my tactical games? It seems every turn I'm clicking on the restore command button for those units that have stars? Is there anything a player can do to prevent 'going out of command'? I have seen units that are stationary in a firefight go out of command, and then after I place them 'in command' again they go out of command. What gives?

2.) Someone mentioned this before but does the AI use supply? It seems sometimes like it doesn't. And what is the criteria for going out of supply? I have had units that appear to have 10 rounds go out of supply in a single turn.

2.) How do you rally units? It seems to be totally automatic. Your general appears out of nowhere and a magic yellow circle appears around the unit in question and bingo, he is rallied? Can I have any effect on this?

I find tactical combat rather frustrating. I'm playing only at the captain level and all it seems I do is put men 'back in command' and shuffle supply wagons.

1. For every 25 men loss and naturally units in fire fight get lots of those a check is made too see if a unit goes out of command.
Unit quality, Container command rating and any leaders command rating are the factors thats plays in, of the top of my head.
Naturally u are in fire fight bound to get alot of casulties. So units will go out of command nothing much to do about it. Other than getting better leaders and container ratings. Signal corps mmight play in too i ferget. U shoudl be able to check that ur self.'

2. They do use supplies. If u turn on combat reports on the advanced menu u will see a negative modifier on units out of supply. enemy too.

3. Its "automatic". U can check the manual for % that a general with certain ratings have to rally units. So no basicly u cant do any thing to help. Other than better generals and the use of the ability military band It adds a chance to rally a unit. Another idea is pulling out units of the battle line before they reach 0 in moral. For every turn a unit with 6+ movement left is rested it will regain some moral.

I might suggest using a lower level then captain until u learn the robes. The computer gains an advantage in combat from 1st sgt and over, IIRC. Its displayed at the combat report too btw.

U dont say but are u playing USA side and attacking early in the war?
I find that about the hardest thing to do. Ur units has in general a low quality and ur containers command rating in general suck. Defender get moral bonus to boot. As u lose/win some battles the quality of ur units gets higher giving them more staying powah.
Ur container can improve over time too. I my self spend a deal of resources makeing new and keeping the good ones.

Hope it helps

Rasmus

P.S Edit: OMG i need to type faster beaten with post by both Gil and Erik, how rude

[christof139]

Yeah, I can't say as I didn't program FoF, but somethings get odd at times. I don't even even try to put units back in command as it seems that they don't follow the command ladder or chain of command anyway. Could just be me though, as I don't use HW all the time.
 
I am going to fire up the old TS battleground games again now that my compooters are running again. I have accumulated many custom review panel icons that other people and myself made, including my ships, and I can use the ships too with mods using the Shiloh game engine and I think the other game engines too, it's just that there is only one custom map with a lot of water that I made of Sabine pass and that is my scenario at the ACW Cartographer's Office and the NIR site, Sabine Pass II. I have to send maps to J>M> Barbier in France to get them completed, and I haven't talked to JM in a few years, however there is a fellow named Luciano that  makes maps, he is in Italy I think, and he is working on a Widerness mod for the Chickamagua game. He is posting at the Matrix battleground New release Forum, and is hopin as many of us are that there will be a map editor in the new releases.
 
If Matrix puts a Map Editor in there they will make millions of $. The East Front 1 map editor can be used to do the basic map, then the map text file has to be modified to accept the BG ACW map terrain and building screen sprite sheet.
 
Here that Matrix!??!  Put a Map Editor in the new release of those old TS BG ACW and Nappy Wars games and you will make a bundle!!! Plus, we all would appreciate it immensely!!! [&o][&o][&o][&o][&o][:)][;)]
 
Best wishes, gotta go, Murfreesboro and FoF are calling,  Chris
 

[Drex]

A lot of good information in these posts. thanks guys.

[ericbabe]

Whether or not a unit is out-of-supply is hidden by fog-of-war, so you'll never see the little blinking out-of-supply symbol on an AI unit.  The AI units do, however, use the same supply system that you do.

[christof139]

Do you get extra supplies when you capture or destroy enemy Supply Wagons. I try to do that as much as possible. In the old TS games you would get 1/2 the amount of supplies left if you captured a wagon, plus the supply wagons would be captured automatically during the melee phase. In FoF the Supply wagons put up a good amount of resistance that is not realistic at all. On the battlefield, those wagons would not be guarded by hordes of troops as they are in FoF. he Supply Wagons in FoF also seem to still start in odd positions in relation to their own side.
 
Chris
 

[ericbabe]

There's a chance you can capture the caisson itself when you charge it.  This is easier to do with cavalry than with infantry, and easier in clear terrain and so forth.

[christof139]

[quote]There's a chance you can capture the caisson itself when you charge it. This is easier to do with cavalry than with infantry, and easier in clear terrain and so forth. /quote]

I don't think I ever captured a Suppy Wagon yet, only destroyed them. I haven't attacked one yet with mounted Cav. as far as I can remember but will try that if I have any Cav. around. I have charged with Infantry but no luck in capturing one yet.

However, I did get another type of supply, a new in the box 400GB Seagate External 16MB cache HD Toy, so now I can use my 80GB WD HD as a second HD to my 160GB HD in my old compooter and recyle/trash the cheap external enclosure the 80BG WD HD is in.
I don't intend to have files lost again on crashed HD's, and hope the new external HD never does that. I guess I'll have to get another external HD to back-up the one I just got, and/or use CD's and DVD's as before. Stuff is a real pain at times. Supplies are supplies I guess, and if no rations in the suplies the leather and mules themselves are available. [8|] Just finished a Siege of Port Hudson book again where the food supply was low for the Confeds.

So, you are saying if we capture a Supply Wagon we get some of the supplies?? I have not read the whole manual yet.

Chris

[XLegion]

I'm still mighty frustrated with the tactical battle on the "Captain level" in this game.

For example: I just had a battle in the Lynchburg area of Virginia. It's still only 1861 so both armies are mighty 'green'. That is to be expected. But why is it that as the battle progresses I can move less and less counters? I know that this is linked with the "command control rules" but I don't have any say on how they work once battle is joined. In the last battle which had about 15,000 men per side I couldn't move ANY men towards the end of the battle. It was just like watching a TV program, all I could do is watch and weep.

I was playing the Confederate. I finally got a message that said "The Union was wavering". Big deal! Within a turn or so the whole Confederate army got the message that it was retreating off the field.

Look, I don't mind losing to the AI when I'm goofing up or something - BUT I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO MOVE MY MEN!!!!

Does the "Captain Level" merely ajust the casualty level or what? What else effects command control? One person on the board commented that he doesn't even bother to put men back in command. Why not? Am I correct in stating that if you don't put the troops back in command you never can move them?

Also the ammunition supply is atrocious. Like I mentioned in my first posts all I ever seem to do is move supply units around and get men back in command. You don't have any time to study tactics and I have found the AI goes right up to your regiments in column and attacks with impunity. Sure, you get the modifier but it isn't enough. This all looks too Napoleonic and HAS TO TO BE FIXED for this game to have any value as a simulation. I realize that this is the BETA patch, but gentleman this has got to be fixed big time. Not just any small modifier. Columned attacks should be discouraged and if utilzied should be decimated by defensive fire.

[Walloc]

Can i ask what general u had commanding this force and did u have a corp/ army containers or was it single divisions.

With 15k men u shouldnt have more than 7 8 brigades at the most.
Any decent general can bring back in command 4 5 and up too 10 units for a 5 star Lee per turn.
So i have a hard time understanding why only 7 8 units should be a problem. I dont see that happening to me.
Yes as far as i know in terms of combat its only casulty levels are ajusted. But remember the more casulties the more out of command units go.

1 trick i use is. The supply wagon that isnt from any of ur division. It doesnt have name too it.
It always moves as last unit in a turn. Aka just before u get new bring back in command attempts. Some times, but only some times, i save the attempts until i get to that supply wagon and then use all my remaining attempts since i gona get new ones right after, Unused arent saved so might as well use any u have.

One person on the board commented that he doesn't even bother to put men back in command. Why not?

no idea? i know i would

It might be an idea to play at sgt level, no AI advantage, until u fully get the hang of Detailed combat.

As far as if the AI moves up to me in colums i would punish it imidiatly and i do. Bring a line on 1 of it flanks and fire away. If its a fresh unit around 300 casulties are to be expected.
Thats one gone colum.

hope it helps

Rasmus

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: XLegion
For example: I just had a battle in the Lynchburg area of Virginia. It's still only 1861 so both armies are mighty 'green'. That is to be expected. But why is it that as the battle progresses I can move less and less counters? I know that this is linked with the "command control rules" but I don't have any say on how they work once battle is joined. In the last battle which had about 15,000 men per side I couldn't move ANY men towards the end of the battle. It was just like watching a TV program, all I could do is watch and weep.

Are you forgetting to restore units that go out of command back to in command each turn?

Look, I don't mind losing to the AI when I'm goofing up or something - BUT I HAVE TO BE ABLE TO MOVE MY MEN!!!!

Losing _some_ control of troops is realistic and historical, though it may be frustrating. Not being able to move any of your units has never happened to me except when an army is literally on the verge of a rout with all units smashed, in combat, etc. In addition to going out of command, troops can be "pinned" by combat, which means they just keep returning volleys because they're getting shot up.

Does the "Captain Level" merely ajust the casualty level or what? What else effects command control? One person on the board commented that he doesn't even bother to put men back in command. Why not? Am I correct in stating that if you don't put the troops back in command you never can move them?

I wouldn't worry about that comment. There is no reason not to put troops back into command. You should ALWAYS use all your chances to restore command to key brigades that you want to have a chance to order.

Also the ammunition supply is atrocious. Like I mentioned in my first posts all I ever seem to do is move supply units around and get men back in command. You don't have any time to study tactics and I have found the AI goes right up to your regiments in column and attacks with impunity. Sure, you get the modifier but it isn't enough. This all looks too Napoleonic and HAS TO TO BE FIXED for this game to have any value as a simulation. I realize that this is the BETA patch, but gentleman this has got to be fixed big time. Not just any small modifier. Columned attacks should be discouraged and if utilzied should be decimated by defensive fire.

Well, I have to say it certainly sounds like you are playing a different game than I am. Please keep at it since I think experience is probably the difference between how you see the combat and how I do. With more battles under your belt and better troops, you will be able to start beating the AI. If you are playing the Union right now, try a battle as the CSA for the higher quality troops and generals and see how that goes for you.

With that said, we have been tweaking the tactical and strategic AI further, but I think the real key is experience and practice to avoid getting in bad situations and also to realize just how badly poor quality troops will do and what you can really expect of them (not much).

Regards,

- Erik

[Erik Rutins]

Walloc's advice on how to deal with enemy column attacks is good. In the long term you can build cavalry units to scout the map for you so that you know when the enemy is close. You'll get a feel for the best terrain and formation to deploy into and if the AI has the temerity to charge you in columns, you can flank him and punish him quite severely.

[christof139]

quote:

Does the "Captain Level" merely ajust the casualty level or what? What else effects command control? One person on the board commented that he doesn't even bother to put men back in command. Why not? Am I correct in stating that if you don't put the troops back in command you never can move them?

I wouldn't worry about that comment. There is no reason not to put troops back into command. You should ALWAYS use all your chances to restore command to key brigades that you want to have a chance to order.

Yeah, I just don't bother with units that are disordered and go out of command. If they rout off the field so be it. I do occassionally try, but usually not. However, the reason for this is that I usually only play small or midsized detailed batles, so I am just playing around with HW's and haven't really put forth any great effort with HW's, but I may in the future. I use my commanders to rally and undisorder units in the TS Battleground games though, and will do so with FoF in the near future. I do get a kick out of watching the disordered and routed units mill around in their chaotic state though, because it reminds me of my continuously imbibed neighbor, the one I want to hand a brick or some arty. projectiles to. [:D]

Chris

[Erik Rutins]

FYI, if you really don't like the Out of Command rules, you can always turn them off as a game option, no problem. They are more realistic, but may not be everyone's cup of tea.

[christof139]

FYI, if you really don't like the Out of Command rules, you can always turn them off as a game option, no problem. They are more realistic, but may not be everyone's cup of tea.

Yes, I have played with them off, but sometimes forget to click them off when setting up the scenario. [&:] It's not that I do or don't like them.

I use command control in most games such as TS, Grat Battles of Alex and Hannibal and Julius Baby, etc. if available. They are fine in FoF but for smaller battles and not playing HW's regularly and just plain forgetting to shut command control off sometimes I just say the heck with it. Doesn't really ruin the game doing that either, for smaller games anyway, and they move along a bit faster.

Nothing like the real thing though Eric for realism, you should try it. That's where good training and having at least half a brain can help immensely, as leaders aren't always present or you may be leading yourself and hence commanding a few people and things, with or without tea.[;)]

Chris

[XLegion]

I will try to answer your questions so I can get better at this but some of your questions I don't quite understand.


1.) What difference does it make what generals I have and the containers in the area when I'm in a tactical battle? You don't 'see' the generals as separate units, although I have seen some generals attached to units.

2.) The battles I am describing is the one that often takes place in the Fredericksburg area on turn 1 of the July 1861 scenario. I tried moving every single unit that can possibly move into that area on my turn and do not seek battle. Yet the Union usually attacks me there and always wins.

3.) I HAVE watched the modifiers and I'm not doing anything ridiculously wrong in combat. But the AI charges in whatever formation it wants and just decimates my forces. I'm so tired of seeing "I hit 49 men" and the AI hits "300 men" or something like that.

3.) I was asked if "I put my men back in command control". YES, YES, YES, YES. That is what I keep saying. That is all I ever end up doing - PUTTING MEN BACK IN COMMAND. By the end of the battles in the Fredericksburg area - I CAN'T MOVE ANY MEN. They are either locked in combat (yellow hex) and I can't move them out. Out of command and I have to waste time putting them back in command. Out of ammunition, so they are useless or routing and there isn't a thing I can do about it.

4.) Somebody was asking about my compostion of force. It's Beuaregard, Johsnton, Lee and every commander I can move into the Fredericksburg area on turn 1. EVERY unit that I can move. I don't move aggressively on the tactical battle field but make a continuous line and defend.

5.) I will now try the same scenario on the Sergeant level or something just above tutorial and see where it goes.

I realize the "learinging curve" on this one is going to be large but it is an extremely frustrating game to learn and I could not recommend it for beginners.

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: XLegion

I will try to answer your questions so I can get better at this but some of your questions I don't quite understand.


1.) What difference does it make what generals I have and the containers in the area when I'm in a tactical battle? You don't 'see' the generals as separate units, although I have seen some generals attached to units.

2.) The battles I am describing is the one that often takes place in the Fredericksburg area on turn 1 of the July 1861 scenario. I tried moving every single unit that can possibly move into that area on my turn and do not seek battle. Yet the Union usually attacks me there and always wins.

3.) I HAVE watched the modifiers and I'm not doing anything ridiculously wrong in combat. But the AI charges in whatever formation it wants and just decimates my forces. I'm so tired of seeing "I hit 49 men" and the AI hits "300 men" or something like that.

3.) I was asked if "I put my men back in command control". YES, YES, YES, YES. That is what I keep saying. That is all I ever end up doing - PUTTING MEN BACK IN COMMAND. By the end of the battles in the Fredericksburg area - I CAN'T MOVE ANY MEN. They are either locked in combat (yellow hex) and I can't move them out. Out of command and I have to waste time putting them back in command. Out of ammunition, so they are useless or routing and there isn't a thing I can do about it.

4.) Somebody was asking about my compostion of force. It's Beuaregard, Johsnton, Lee and every commander I can move into the Fredericksburg area on turn 1. EVERY unit that I can move. I don't move aggressively on the tactical battle field but make a continuous line and defend.

5.) I will now try the same scenario on the Sergeant level or something just above tutorial and see where it goes.

I realize the "learinging curve" on this one is going to be large but it is an extremely frustrating game to learn and I could not recommend it for beginners.

Ops, I forgot all the text it is incomming once i get it edited.

Sorry if there is any of my question u dont understand plz let me know. My english suffers at times.

Answering 1 and 4 together. Containers and where generals are places inside them has every thing to with how ur units behave in Tactical combat. Ill try explain.

Just having a general in an area and they wil auto attach to a random unit if they are in a province where a battles happens, does nothing for u. Apart from the firing bonus. You get no command bonus what so ever if they arent placed correctly inside the containers. Div, corps and army.
ill link u to a thread where i have tried to explain how generals should be placed.
tm.asp?m=1433321

The start battle in the july scn is VERY atypical because u start with no generals inside the containers and all the containers seperate aka all ur reinforcements doesnt havre time to be gathered up in an army / corps container. Because of that u cant really use this as much of an example, but where should u know that from. Even if u try and move the surrounding generals into the proince and containers it isn sure they actually make it before the battle commences. If so apart from the fire bonus they dont do any thing they "suppose" too.

By the end of the battles in the Fredericksburg area - I CAN'T MOVE ANY MEN. They are either locked in combat (yellow hex) and I can't move them out. Out of command and I have to waste time putting them back in command. Out of ammunition, so they are useless or routing and there isn't a thing I can do about it.

This is to represent the fact that firefight tended to spiral out of any control of the leaders.
units would keep up firing at each other until 1 of them broke. Basicly if u find a line just opposite another line fire away at each other. Dont bother use command points on them.
Chances are even if u do, until a side breaks, it wont do u any good. This is in my personal opinion Super realistic. This is how it was in RL.
Focus ur command attempts on the unit that isnt locked in fire fights or arent adjecent to enemies. If u get those back in command u will be able to control them. Those unit u then get back in control. Use them to flank a firefight giving u the advantage in the firefights making u win them. After u have won, imidiatly regain control of the now free units and rinse and repeat on another firefight.

TS games never really showed this aspect of firefights. Leaving u with a "higher" degree or sense of control i can agree on that. It just isnt realistic. U can always if u end up hating it over time turn of the command option before u start a game.
I suggest u try and give it a shot tho. It do IMHO greatly add to battles and as i have explained the start battle in the july scn is very atypical.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

[XLegion]

Thanks Rasmus for the explanations. That is going to help for sure. I have been playing the HPS and Talonsoft games now for close to ten years so it is difficult to "unlearn" some tactics.