Mogami method

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

could somebody give me a link to a thread explaining Mogami's patented method? The search function returns way too many references.

[rogueusmc]

Look in the must read sticky...I bet someone has linked to it in there.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

I looked once, and that is where I first saw references to it. I will look again more closely.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

It just occurred to me to do a search specific to the War Room, and Voila!

Here is a re-print in Mogami's own words in case anyone else is curious.

Hi, First my system is not intended to produce mass numbers of pilots (form new units)
You can do that when the time comes just by placing entire units in training and when they are ready moving the entire group to combat duty.

The purpose of the system is to maintain combat units during the critical period from Dec 41 to Dec 42.
After that new aircraft models allow more groups (IJAAF) to enter combat duty.

In the first 13 months the IJNAF (A6M2 and G4M) carry the burden. After you have used up the pool of trained pilots you have 3 choices
1. Use untrained pilots as replacements in combat
2. Accept no replacements and when a group becomes too small to remain in combat withdraw it, accept replacements and train
3. The "Mogami system" where trained groups are used to provide replacements to combat groups.

In the system you have 3 classess of group.
1. Trained and assigned to combat
2. Trained and assigned as replacements
3. Untrained under going training (moves to slot 2 when ready)

There are 2 sizes of Japanese group Daitai (IJN are 27 plane) Chutai (IJN are 9 plane)
A Daitai breaks down into 3xChutai (A/B/C)
When a group assigned to combat duty loses pilots (not aircraft) to where a Chutai will bring it back to strength (or slightly over strength) you move a replacement Chutai to the base and disband it. (Accept return in 90 days)
Now the combat group can remain effective.

When the disbanded Chutai returns you refill it with untrained pilots and begin training. (when all Chuati (A/B/C) have returned you rebuild the Daitai to save slots.

I hope people see the difference between keeping groups to size with untrained pilots compared to keeping groups to strength with trained pilots.
If you commit every group to combat you will soon have a large number of untrained pilots serving in combat where they do not add to your success as much as they train enemy pilots. (And speed the rate you lose the trained pilots)
Once a group has more then 3 out of 27 pilots untrained it is no longer as effective as it once was. (If you find a group with 6 or more untrained pilots I advise you withdraw it and train it.)

Now this method is useless in 1944/45 where entire groups will be practicly destroyed in a single days fighting. In this period Japan will be forced to transfer in entire groups each day to replace those lost. Here Japan should combine groups at a base (sending the disbanded units back to be placed into training) as they are reduced in combat.

The method will still work for groups assigned to protect Home Island Cities from bombers but will not work in battles where a Japanese base is under attack prior to invasions. The Japanese player will not need to be told what method is required. It will be apparent. (You don't send replacements to rebuild a combat unit that has 3 pilots left out of 27 after one day. This group rather then getting replacements has become a replacement group. Send these pilots to a group and use the group to train a new set of 27 pilots)

[jwilkerson]

Interestingly I'm not sure how many people use this method any more. I think many of us did when the game first came out - because we knew it was a way to maintain at least the IJN carrier groups at maximum exp levels. But since then we've learned that you can train a group up into the seventies by just filling it up with bad pilots and training them up. Even Mogami uses this method now and so do I.

If you do the "disband" thing the disbanded group comes back in 90 days and then you still have to fill it up with bad pilots and train it up. So you are mortaging the future to have one group with high exp and the other out of combat for maybe 6 months.

By using the "new" Mogami method .. you always have all your groups on the map either fighting or training. That is what I shoot for and I think most others these day.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

The 70's, really? Heck, screw the old method. Question: I am new to the Jap side and allowed my initial naval pilot pool to be squandered away by all groups set to receive replacements, so I have no good pilots to re-stock KB, which badly needs it. What do you recommend I do for the short run?

[goodboyladdie]

Find a cut off Allied unit with no air cover and bomb it lots, with your fighters too. It's a bit gamey, but if you go in against a defended target in planes made out of tissue paper with poor pilots you'll end up losing loads of airframes and maybe your carriers too.

[saj42]

I can't remember who, but someone came up with a variant of the 'Mogami' method. It requires the use of a coastal base.

To bring an understrength Datai up to max:
1. Fly your 'donor' unit to the selected base, where you have moved out all avaiation support.
2. Let it sit for several days until all but a few a/c are damaged.
3. Fly out the serviceable a/c. the damaged a/c and pilots will be left behind
4. Move in your understrength Datai and disband the fragment into it.
5. Move the Base force/Aviation regt back in, repair a/c and fly Datai out (or move via rail to another base / reload on CV)
6. Meanwhile the donor unit should be refilled with rookies and set to training on hapless enemy target. The presence of experienced pilots is 'supposed' to speed up training of rookies.

This method negates units being disbanded and loosing them for 90 days, but does take a degree of micromanagement. Also your 'prized' combat unit doesn't have to be withdrawn for more than a few days to fill it with experienced pilots.

[tsimmonds]

ORIGINAL: Tallyho!

I can't remember who, but someone came up with a variant of the 'Mogami' method. It requires the use of a coastal base.

To bring an understrength Datai up to max:
1. Fly your 'donor' unit to the selected base, where you have moved out all avaiation support.
2. Let it sit for several days until all but a few a/c are damaged.
3. Fly out the serviceable a/c. the damaged a/c and pilots will be left behind
4. Move in your understrength Datai and disband the fragment into it.
5. Move the Base force/Aviation regt back in, repair a/c and fly Datai out (or move via rail to another base / reload on CV)
6. Meanwhile the donor unit should be refilled with rookies and set to training on hapless enemy target. The presence of experienced pilots is 'supposed' to speed up training of rookies.

This method negates units being disbanded and loosing them for 90 days, but does take a degree of micromanagement. Also your 'prized' combat unit doesn't have to be withdrawn for more than a few days to fill it with experienced pilots.

A better and faster way to get a daitai of damaged a/c i to load them onto an AK, then unload them the folowing turn. A turn or at most two after that you will have a few undamaged a/c to fly out, and the remainder can be used as replacements.

This has a few advantages:

• It's faster
• You don't have to micromanage moving your AV support
• You don't have to interrupt the normal activities at that base

[Mynok]

I still use the disband method to refresh carrier daitais. All others use the fill empty slots and begin training.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

Thanks guys. Now if I can only figure out the %$&#* production!
[;)]

[Mynok]

Production is easy. Stop all the obsolete planes and switch those that don't upgrade to something else. Then leave it alone. You'll be fine.

If you want to get more detailed there are numerous "first turn" change lists. The bottom line is that it will generally get done for you so long as you ship oil and resources to Japan in sufficient amounts.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

Production is easy. Stop all the obsolete planes and switch those that don't upgrade to something else. Then leave it alone. You'll be fine.

[8|]

There's the rub, I am in the process of learning what all the Jap planes are. I do know this now, Nates are a waste of AVGAS.

[jwilkerson]

Ok, now you've done it [:D]

Let's talk about training a bit.

As the Japanese, after '42 .. I spend most of my turn processing time with pilot training. Deciding who will fly and who is done and who needs training etc.

As long as the Allies will allow it .. you can train up pretty well in China. If there are a few odd Allied bases laying around the map that you can use, then that's fine too.

Ideally you want spots that are 1 hex away from your base. Worst case 2 hexes. It is really difficult to sustain training at farther distances and only at 1-2 hexes can you "leave" the air units on the mission. Otherwise you have to switch them on and off. Against an empty base, I use the Port bombing mission. Against ground units, the "ground" mission. This will rapidly train up most of your single engine planes to 70 .. after that it slows down dramatically, but if you have time shoot for 75 or even 80 if you really have time (75 is a good mid war target .. but I still try to bring a few up to 80).

If allowed by house rules, you can train multi-engine bombers up by using the "supply" trick. If you don't know that one we can tell you.

Dive bombers are a little tougher because they get shot down pretty easily. I train them up with the ground mission, attacking airbases or ports with enemy in occupation will get them shot down too fast.
Night Fighters are perhaps the toughest because they don't have too many useful missions. But fortunately in the games I've played anyway, night fighters don't matter anyway.

The fastest way to train up your carrier groups is either with an empty enemy base near one of your Afs or in China ...

BTW, in my book Nates are not useless ... I use them exclusively for training up in China at least in '42 !!! Now would I use them for fighting enemy aeroplanes .. nope! But as trainers, sure!

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

The supply trick I do know. All other info is appreciated. One thing I haven't seen so far is a quick and dirty list of what these planes are, and how good/bad they are. As to Allied planes I have known them since I was about 8 or so, as to the Japs nada.

[marky]

as if the Jap juggernaut wasnt capable of causing troubler on its own...

[:D][8|]

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

The supply trick I do know. All other info is appreciated. One thing I haven't seen so far is a quick and dirty list of what these planes are, and how good/bad they are. As to Allied planes I have known them since I was about 8 or so, as to the Japs nada.

Here ya go. From memory so I might miss a few.

Fighters:

A6M2, A6M3, A6M3a -- mainstay of the naval air arm. All decent until 43.
Claudes -- junk
Rufe -- Useful but don't build more than you need for your squadrons.
Nate -- Don't build any but use for trainers
Oscar Ib -- Use against Dutch and Chinese only. Otherwise use as trainers.
Oscar II -- junk when it arrives.
Tony -- good aircraft. Use as an interceptor.
Tojo -- good aircraft. Use as air superiority in Burma.
A6M5 -- Use and build.

Fighter-Bombers:
A6M5c -- Use and build. Good for kamikaze.
Nick -- Use and build enough for squadrons.

DB:
Val -- all you've got until Judy. Use on carriers.
Sonia -- Decent for ground attack and ASW in constricted areas.
Ann -- Don't use or build.
Mary -- Don't use or build

TB:
Kate -- Same as for the Val. Replace with the Jill then Grace.

LB:
Nell -- Use early but replace with Betty ASAP. Don't build.
Betty -- Mainstay of Naval LBA arm. Build heavily.
Sally -- Use up then replace with Helen. Don't build.
Helen -- Build and use for all LB missions.
Lily -- ASW only. Build enough for squadrons.
Peggy -- Use and build.
Frances -- Use and build.

RC:
Ida -- Don't use or build.
Babs -- Use but don't build.
Dinah -- Use and build.
Irving -- Use and build.
C5M -- Use and build.
C6N -- Use and build.

Transports:
Hickory -- Build enough to bring in squadrons. Don't use.
Theresa -- Don't use or build.
Thora -- junk
Tabby -- Use and build
Topsy -- Use but replace with Tabby.
Tina -- Use and build sparingly.
H6K2L -- Use and build.
MC-21 -- Use and build.

Patrol:
H6K4 -- Use don't build.
H8K -- Use and build.

Float Planes:
Alf -- Use and build.
Jake -- Use and build.
Pete -- Use for ASW (naval search) only. Don't build.
Dave -- Don't use or build.
Glen -- Use and build.

Use and build all the late war fighters like Jack, George and Frank.

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

Printing now. I really appreciate that. I believe I am currently building quite a lot of junk at the moment, but will fix that immediately.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

Production is easy. Stop all the obsolete planes and switch those that don't upgrade to something else. Then leave it alone. You'll be fine.

[8|]

There's the rub, I am in the process of learning what all the Jap planes are. I do know this now, Nates are a waste of AVGAS.

In combat, yes Nates suck. Use them to train your pilots. They'll probably last you the entire war that way. It's better than having your cavemen crash in your frontline planes.

[Q-Ball]

I agree with all of that in terms of airpower, except for one thing.....

I don't see a big advantage to using the Helen over Sally. The capabilities are very similar, but Sally uses Mitsubishi engines, which you have plenty of, and the Helen uses Nakajima, which I prefer to use for fighters. I would like other thoughts, but I can't see a big difference between Sally and Helen.

Have others found the same thing?