Waypoint Question and a few others

[Bacillus]

Hello! I recently got into COTA a few days since I now have the summer to relax. I have played the tutorial a few times, and read most of the manual. I too, have come from traditional hex based gaming, and I must say I am excited and overwhelmed at this new style of play. I have tried the tactical exercise scenario a few times as the Allies and I am usually defeated. I am unable to come up with a clear sound attacking strategy. I use the orders delay painfully realistic because I feel that gives the game its most real "feel". My questions are as follows:

1. Way points: The allies are the attackers in the tactical exercise scenario. I cannot find a good use for way points as the attacker. Why not just set up one destination (the "FUP" area)? As the defender I can see the usefulness of them, setting up multiple fall back positions. Can someone explain how to use way points effectively as the attacker and explain why they are needed?

2.In this scenario, what would you recommend the plan of attack to be? It seems you must go north on the main highway and there is always a company of German inf. hidden in a forest that has LOS on me that causes all hell to break loose. If I tried moving a group around the forest, I would lose precious time since the scenario is only 24 hours. I struggle to see the conceptual ideas behind a sound attack strategy. Coming from hex gaming, I would normally surround the hex and pile up the attackers. It's here where I draw a blank. Should I send the recon units blazing past the main conflict area heading straight for the hill? Should outflanking maneuvers be attempted? Frontal assault?

Help with these questions is greatly appreciated.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Bacillus
My questions are as follows:

1. Way points: The allies are the attackers in the tactical exercise scenario. I cannot find a good use for way points as the attacker. Why not just set up one destination (the "FUP" area)? As the defender I can see the usefulness of them, setting up multiple fall back positions. Can someone explain how to use way points effectively as the attacker and explain why they are needed?

I'll try to explain it with an example. Say you've got a battalion and you order it to attack an enemy position 10 km from its current location. What happened IRL is not that every soldier in that battalion picked up his rifle and started to assault that location, but the battalion would move-out in column formation along the road to the jump-off point / assembly area from where every company will deploy and the actual assault is going to be launched. That point is called the FUP (forming-up point) in COTA. Ideally that point would be out of the line of sight of the defending unit, but not too far away because assaulting over too long a distance will fatigue the troops at an alarming rate.

Now, in COTA, if you order that battalion to attack that enemy position at 10 km distance you can simply click on the battalion HQ, click the attack button and click on the enemy location. What will happen is that the AI will pick a FUP itself - as it needs one - but this AI choice of location will often be sub-optimal and you're often better off when you determine a good location for it yourself.

What's a good location ? As I said : preferably out of the line of sight of the defending unit, but not too far away - max 1 km from the attack location is a good rule of thumb for infantry assaults. The tricky thing with these requirements is that these are often mutually exclusive requirements and it's your job - as the commander - to weigh the disadvantage of assaulting over too long a distance versus the casualties you'll take when forming up too close.

So how do you set a FUP in COTA ? Well, the FUP is always and automatically the last waypoint you set before the object (attack) location. So most of the time when you attack an enemy position it's click the battalion HQ unit, click the attack button, hold the shift-key and select the FUP, release the shift-key and select the attack location.

Ok, so setting a single waypoint (the FUP) makes sense, but what about the other waypoints ? Well, when you give an attack order you can determine how that battalion should get to the FUP. Should it take the quickest path available to get there, or the safest or even the shortest ? Those are all options you can set when you click the attack button, and they're good enough most of the time, but what about if you want that battalion to take a specific road because you don't want it to clog another road for another unit you plan to move ? Or when you know a particular location is enemy occupied and you want to move your units around it ? Or you want it to cross the river at a specific bridge, because you fear the other one will be blown up ? That's when you need additional waypoints.

ORIGINAL: Bacillus
2.In this scenario, what would you recommend the plan of attack to be?

Can't remember - and I'm at work now, so can't check right now [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Pergite!]

ORIGINAL: Bacillus

2.In this scenario, what would you recommend the plan of attack to be? It seems you must go north on the main highway and there is always a company of German inf. hidden in a forest that has LOS on me that causes all hell to break loose. If I tried moving a group around the forest, I would lose precious time since the scenario is only 24 hours. I struggle to see the conceptual ideas behind a sound attack strategy. Coming from hex gaming, I would normally surround the hex and pile up the attackers. It's here where I draw a blank. Should I send the recon units blazing past the main conflict area heading straight for the hill? Should outflanking maneuvers be attempted? Frontal assault?

I use the cover of darkness to position my forces quickly so that any german positions wont interfer with my initial advance. The first germans I encounter is usally around the text "Sarantopos River" and this is around dawn. This doesnt amount in any hold up since I have alot of fire support at hand, as well as alot of heavy guns up in the lead units as well.
Artillety is often the key difference in many COTA scenarios and its vital that you use it correctly.
I usually soften up targets with artillery just prior to my first assaulting units reaches them. The combined firepower more than often makes the enemy retreat and takes alot of casualties. During defence a few well placed rounds can also stop a entire enemy advance. This is especially true if there is some kind of vital channeling terrain that the enemy must pass, and when there is alot of unit in transit on the same stretch of road for example.

Anyway, back to the scenario. Pound the forward enemy units with some artillery, make sure that you use the entire avenue of approach when you advance (the area along the highway between the N-S Rivers) so you can have the maximum amount of own firepower in the front. Done correctly, a single company should not be able to hold up your advance.

The objective itself is rather tricky to take since its all in rough terrain, and you only have motoroized units. My advice is to surround it and pound it with everything you have got so that the dug in opponent displaces his positions, then you move in. Dont forget that you have a excellent AA and AT units at your disposal. Position them well, and they will be a very welcomed addition to your fire support.
The enemy only have limited AT capabilites so there really isnt any need to be too carefull, and as you self have pointed out, the time is not on your side.

[Bacillus]

Thanks for the explanation. Since I play with orders delay, would you recommend:
1. setting up way points for an attack order
2. setting up way points with a move order only to attack at a later time (this constitutes analysis of the changing situation on the ground).


It seems to me if you can see the enemy, you should just set up an attack via way points if your objective in the scenario is to be the aggressor. Once again, thank you all for your tips.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Bacillus

Thanks for the explanation. Since I play with orders delay, would you recommend:
1. setting up way points for an attack order
2. setting up way points with a move order only to attack at a later time (this constitutes analysis of the changing situation on the ground).


It seems to me if you can see the enemy, you should just set up an attack via way points if your objective in the scenario is to be the aggressor. Once again, thank you all for your tips.

I'm not quite grasping the questions/problem here. If you're ordering an attack I always set at least one waypoint - the FUP - because if you don't the AI will pick one for you that's often not the optimal spot. When giving a "move" order I also almost always set waypoints as a means to be better able to direct traffic, avoid enemy strongpoints etc.

You're never obliged to set waypoints of course, but it just makes sense to do so. IRL commanders were ordered to use a particular road or route as well for the same reasons you see in the game - all in all using waypoints is pretty realistic.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[MarkShot]

My thoughts: always use waypoints with an attack order unless the enemy is close enough to share with you a taste Grandma Hilda's strudel. Minimally, you want to pick your FUP and define the axis of attack ... two very key determinants in the ultimate success.

I think between the two mini-guides I did cover various FUPing issues and considerations (both as the attacker and the defender).

[simovitch]

I like setting at least a few waypoints along the path at road intersections to give me a bit of flexibility, because intermediate waypoints can be moved 'on the fly' without causing orders delay. This allows you to change direction instantly as the situation develops.

Kind of a cheat? maybe....[;)] remember though Your final 'objective' waypoint cannot be moved without experiencing a delay.

[Bacillus]

Once again, thanks for the replies. I have tried this scenario multiple times since my last post, and all attempts to win the scenario have failed, the best result being a draw. I have tried:

1. Dividing my group into two sections where one attacks from the left by following the track and setting up southwest of the obj location on the hill. The other force drives straight up the road towards the hill. I set up FUP's approx. 1km south of suspected enemy concentrations but the German company hidden in the woods harass my troops causing major delays. Not sure what good my recon section does, they are much too weak to take on even an enemy company even with artillery support. The main assault force must cross through open ground to reach enemy concentrations. All too often, one or more units rout in sheer horror while trying to attack the German invader.

2. Brute force method: set up the FUP 1km south of suspected enemy positions on the hill in the forest area. I tried relying on my AI commanders to succeed but I was not lucky in this regard.

Some in this post have recommended surrounding the Germans on the hill but there is no "surround" command as the AI controls my movements. I supposed I could manually order each company/unit to a desired location but that would be too much of a clickfest for me and is what I thought this game wanted to avoid. Combat, once initiated, is a jumbled bit of forces that seem to rout way to often. I am no means an expert, but the British forces (and ANZAC's in other scenarios) seem to flee in terror quite often. This always occurs while I am playing this tactical training scenario. It was my understanding they were steadfast troops of a similar caliber of their German counterparts. I have read the HTTR/COTA guide and AAR as well, and some tips, while helpful, don't seem to produce results. Honestly, with all the way points I see in the guide and micromanaging of certain units, it makes it rather daunting to know what kind of plan to bring to fruition.

[tukker]

The tactical exercise scenarios, though small, are actually quite tough nuts to crack. After playing both tutorials, and trying the tactical exercises a couple of times, it might be a good idea to try one of the smaller historical scenarios. Also, it may be useful to read MarkShots COTA mini-guide (sticky at the top of this forum). Use his AAR as a guideline.
COTA might take some time to getting used to, but once you get the hang of it, you'll never look back at hex-based games again (well, at least I didn't) [;)]
 
Pieter

[Pergite!]

ORIGINAL: Bacillus

Once again, thanks for the replies. I have tried this scenario multiple times since my last post, and all attempts to win the scenario have failed, the best result being a draw. I have tried:

1. Dividing my group into two sections where one attacks from the left by following the track and setting up southwest of the obj location on the hill. The other force drives straight up the road towards the hill. I set up FUP's approx. 1km south of suspected enemy concentrations but the German company hidden in the woods harass my troops causing major delays. Not sure what good my recon section does, they are much too weak to take on even an enemy company even with artillery support. The main assault force must cross through open ground to reach enemy concentrations. All too often, one or more units rout in sheer horror while trying to attack the German invader.

2. Brute force method: set up the FUP 1km south of suspected enemy positions on the hill in the forest area. I tried relying on my AI commanders to succeed but I was not lucky in this regard.

Some in this post have recommended surrounding the Germans on the hill but there is no "surround" command as the AI controls my movements. I supposed I could manually order each company/unit to a desired location but that would be too much of a clickfest for me and is what I thought this game wanted to avoid. Combat, once initiated, is a jumbled bit of forces that seem to rout way to often. I am no means an expert, but the British forces (and ANZAC's in other scenarios) seem to flee in terror quite often. This always occurs while I am playing this tactical training scenario. It was my understanding they were steadfast troops of a similar caliber of their German counterparts. I have read the HTTR/COTA guide and AAR as well, and some tips, while helpful, don't seem to produce results. Honestly, with all the way points I see in the guide and micromanaging of certain units, it makes it rather daunting to know what kind of plan to bring to fruition.

Dont panic if your units starts to retreat, just make sure that you hold the area that they are pulling back into. Going after a dug in opponent is difficult, and the lead unit in will understandebly get a bloody nose. Your units will withdraw and leave room for another unit in your line, this is completely normal and as long as your routing units gets their act together once out of contact, there shouldnt be a problem. Its not usual to have frontlines swaying back and forth during combat and I guess you are missing the decisevness hexes and turns sometimes gives the impression of.

With surround I actually meant encircle, I mean that you advance up the enemy flank and force him to withdraw due to your crossfire. Leave an opening in the direction where you want him to go so he leaves the objective you are trying to take.

[Bacillus]

Pergite!, thanks for the info on crossfire. Do you mean to suggest that one should set up attack way points a few hundred meters to the left and right of enemy locations for this to succeed? Typically I put my attack order right on top of the enemy icon.

[Deathtreader]

ORIGINAL: Bacillus

Pergite!, thanks for the info on crossfire. Do you mean to suggest that one should set up attack way points a few hundred meters to the left and right of enemy locations for this to succeed? Typically I put my attack order right on top of the enemy icon.

Hi,

For a crossfire type action a series of "move" orders for each participating formation (or unit depending on the scale of the action" with Aggro set to maximum will accomplish the same end result as an "attack" order -- and will incur a lot less fatigue and disorganization on the participants as well.

Rob.

[Pergite!]

ORIGINAL: Bacillus

Pergite!, thanks for the info on crossfire. Do you mean to suggest that one should set up attack way points a few hundred meters to the left and right of enemy locations for this to succeed? Typically I put my attack order right on top of the enemy icon.

Where you place the attack icon is heavily dependent on what kind of task you want to preform. If you want to size (take and hold) a target area or objective, its vital to push the opponent away from the named objective. To do this you shouldnt just place the attack marker on top of the enemy, because this will mean that the units objecive is met once they reached the enemy positions. If you however place the marker behind the enemy, your forces will push on and push the retrating enemy units in front of them. Remember to also place your attack objective on a good defensive spot to be able to repell any enemy counter attacks. Remember that its often vital to control the terrain around an objective to be able to secure the objective itself.
I usually order attacks on to positions where I can attack the enemy by fire and when I feel that this have had effect, send in a follow on attack to sweep through the target area.


I think I need to clarify encircle, you should assault the position in question in such a way that your units ends up in positions where they can do the most damage to the enemy forces still defending the objective. This with intent of softening up the positions for your final assault through the the rough terrain. If you send all your troops into one area they wont have any room to manuever and will generally slow down, get disorganized and as well being a good target for enemy fire.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Bacillus

Once again, thanks for the replies. I have tried this scenario multiple times since my last post, and all attempts to win the scenario have failed, the best result being a draw.

I recommend to try my method:

tm.asp?m=1283842

Check out my micro-guide in that thread.

[Bacillus]

Thank you for the link Goodguy. The screenshots help me understand the operational concepts in a much clearer manner. Perhaps when I get a better grip on game mechanics you would be interested in a game or two in the future.