Logistics, Support, Horses Vs Vehicles

[Dili]

I am trying to define precisley the logistic foorprint of units and i need some help because i am mostly ignorant of this part of the game.


Lets try for example an Artillery Regiment of 24x150mm Guns.


Do the Game increses the human footprint of an heavier gun over a lighter gun or when we define a device we should account for that? after all a 50mm gun needs 2-3 persons and a Jeep and a 203mm Gun might need 20 men and 2 medium trucks?


Since it is artillery needs to be towed so it needs the also 24xMotorised support at least? it is that way support is handled? 1 support to 1 device that need to be moved? Or do an heavier Artillery piece needs more support?

What represents motorised support? a transport truck? Classed has vehicle i suppose probably represents a truck with say 6 persons(mechanics,cookers,docters whatever...) so it will around 5 tons to account for smallish and bigger vehicles. This in size game terms means what 5 size?

But how to model all missing stuff like Command and Control, Other vehicles, Medical post, Mechanics, military police, cookers, bakers etc. If an Artillery Regiment is only 24 Guns+24Support it is too light unit comparing with reality.


Solution: Model no-combatant squad just to increase logistic footprint but without supporting abilities?



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How to define Horses? can the game model the advantage of Horses?

It would need somewhat to have better cargo capability over Human support.


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Note that i am thinking of support only as "transportation device" i dont know if that is right or not.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Dili

I am trying to define precisley the logistic foorprint of units and i need some help because i am mostly ignorant of this part of the game.


Lets try for example an Artillery Regiment of 24x150mm Guns.


Do the Game increses the human footprint of an heavier gun over a lighter gun or when we define a device we should account for that? after all a 50mm gun needs 2-3 persons and a Jeep and a 203mm Gun might need 20 men and 2 medium trucks?


Since it is artillery needs to be towed so it needs the also 24xMotorised support at least? it is that way support is handled? 1 support to 1 device that need to be moved? Or do an heavier Artillery piece needs more support?

What represents motorised support? a transport truck? Classed has vehicle i suppose probably represents a truck with say 6 persons(mechanics,cookers,docters whatever...) so it will around 5 tons to account for smallish and bigger vehicles. This in size game terms means what 5 size?

But how to model all missing stuff like Command and Control, Other vehicles, Medical post, Mechanics, military police, cookers, bakers etc. If an Artillery Regiment is only 24 Guns+24Support it is too light unit comparing with reality.


Solution: Model no-combatant squad just to increase logistic footprint but without supporting abilities?



--------------------------------------------------------------

How to define Horses? can the game model the advantage of Horses?

It would need somewhat to have better cargo capability over Human support.


---------------------------------------------------------------

Note that i am thinking of support only as "transportation device" i dont know if that is right or not.

One support [squd] (or motorised support [squad]) is needed for every device regardless of actual load cost to properly function. It's an abstraction: A 13.mm AAMG needs one support squad (representing 20 men) and a 203mm Howitzer needs the same.

[el cid again]

True. However,

in RHS we defined the footprint of support and motorized support differently -

so support costs TWICE as much to lift as motorized support (the other half being horses or porters).

In addition, some very large weapons get TWO support squads vice one - forcing you to have more lift to move the unit as a whole. There are some special cases as well - see the Independent Artillery Companies (1 and 2): they come with organic AAA and support - and in one case - some medium (ranging) guns - besides the heavy weapon(s).

[Dili]

So support doesnt have anything to do with mobility?

[el cid again]

Not per se. However, I would not be surprised to learn that motorized support makes a unit more mobile than support does. I hope so.

[Dili]

So how to model foot infantry Vs truck mounted infantry?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Not per se. However, I would not be surprised to learn that motorized support makes a unit more mobile than support does. I hope so.

However in the jungle you may likely be better off with non-motorized support...afterall when Slim left Burma he ended up leaving a trail of vehicles behind...not because they wouldn't run but because they in many instances couldn't pass...Similar to some US units "downgrading" their artillery (ie going to smaller calibers) as the war progressed in the Pacific because of mobility issues.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Dili

So how to model foot infantry Vs truck mounted infantry?

I give motorized infantry one motorized support squad per squad - and usually some motorized recon vehicles as well.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Not per se. However, I would not be surprised to learn that motorized support makes a unit more mobile than support does. I hope so.

However in the jungle you may likely be better off with non-motorized support...afterall when Slim left Burma he ended up leaving a trail of vehicles behind...not because they wouldn't run but because they in many instances couldn't pass...Similar to some US units "downgrading" their artillery (ie going to smaller calibers) as the war progressed in the Pacific because of mobility issues.

By accident or design it appears this may be well modeled here - everything moves exactly 1 mile per day in the Jungle as far as I can tell. A graduate of the US Army Jungle Warfare School - which had nothing whatever to do with warfare - but things like navigation and survival - I can say I agree with Treespider here. Marines told us (Navy ) guys "you are lucky - carry nothing but one poncho, and extra water - you have no required load"
Our jungle was much denser than in WWII Asia - but our rate of progress might be 200 to 2000 yards per day - one man wide trail clearing

[Dili]

I give motorized infantry one motorized support squad per squad - and usually some motorized recon vehicles as well.

Thanks.

A couple more Questions:

It seems that weight is handled differently between vehicles and squads 16 in a squad is less than 16 in vehicles. Is a squad unit load cost 100kg and vehicle unit load cost 1 ton?


I have been testing Unit weights and seems that only with support weapons i can achieve a "realistic" size:

This is the TO&E of an Divisional Artillery Regiment in this case for an Italian Infantry Division.

Guns:24x75mm(1,2tx24=29t) Canon 12x100mm Howitzer(12x1,5t=18t)  

Defensive weapons:
18xHMG;
8x20mmAA(x0,6t=2,4t)
Men: 2689(x150kg=403t)
Vehicles: 20 AutoBus(x3t=60t);
2 cars(x1,5t=3t);
9 Moto;
58 Bycicles;
1708Horses(x500kg=854t) ;
41 Trailers(x100kg=4,1t)

=optimistic 1374t

To achives a similar weight in game i needed to include HMG as guns and have full support.
Also the Guns load coast in game is not those  above but a cumulative weight of Gun+plus towing/transport vehicle which should have been Horses.
So in game load cost is for 100mm is 5; 75mm is 4, 20mm is 2 and HMG is 2; with full 62xsupport at 16 load cost the AP Load Cost is 1192 near the 1374t.
Probably i should increase support load cost.

[el cid again]

This may not be formally defined (yet) - it isn't in the manual - but a Matrix programmer says


"ultimately it must be a ton is a ton is a ton"

meaning that everything will be tons - period.

1 man requires 1 ton - which may be either a unit of weight or volume - and in game terms both

This isn't entirely unreasonable either - although for airlift it would be better if 1 man = 1/10 ton

The problem with squads is that "load cost" EITHER is defined as

a) number of men OR

b) weight in tons

In RHS I do exactly what you said - consider that support is PART OF the load cost
and I also added even light mortars and medium machine guns (but NOT light machine guns)
to units - which was tricky - because of minimum effect code

[Dili]

Yes that is strange. I am also thinking to add  to devices an "administrative"(i have to think of a better name) squad with minimal combat value for units which size that cant be modelled by weapons alone.
 
Two other questions:
 
1- is there any way to update the TOE reference during the game? Like Division 1941, Division 1943?
 
2-If i start a mod in 1940 what problems might appear?

[el cid again]

If you wish you could use the RHS Labor Squad (or the Field Hand Squad) - both of which fit this particular bill.

You get one reference - we think. But there is a theory you can have the reference point at a different reference.
I doubt it is a good idea.

What I do - this is invented by Joe Wilkerson - is point a formation at a DIFFERENT reference - that is a reference with DIFFERENT squads - and slowly the unit builds to the pointed form.

[Dili]

Thanks again
 

If you wish you could use the RHS Labor Squad (or the Field Hand Squad) - both of which fit this particular bill.

 
Arent that squads in "support slots"? In manual says it is 236-256(including engines). I dont want to over support.
 

You get one reference - we think. But there is a theory you can have the reference point at a different reference.
I doubt it is a good idea.
What I do - this is invented by Joe Wilkerson - is point a formation at a DIFFERENT reference - that is a reference with DIFFERENT squads - and slowly the unit builds to the pointed form.

 
2 good ideas to try.
 
Another question, is there a way to stop a production of a device without that device upgrading to another?  I mean one way i was thinking to "fix" the problem above was for  an unit that had 100 Grant and then later 150 M4 was to put in TO&E 100 Grant and 150 M4, start with only 100 Grant when production of M4 kicks there is less M3 because at same time M3 production ends. I am not seeing any way for that so probably i can only do that for devices that arent build in War or there is no problem stocking them like if it werent build, that way no production to stop. Hmm a dummy device to update to doesnt work because i would need one for every device that had a diferent obsolescense date. 

[el cid again]

There are only three support squads in fact:

support

motorized support

[BOTH support other squads]

aircraft support

[Uniquely supports itself ONLY]

[el cid again]

You can put all the device production in the pool and set production to zero - they when you use them up - they are gone.

[Dili]

Support is 252,253 and 254 nothing more is that what are you saying? So info from Manual isnt true in your opinion. I just ask for confirmation because i need it cleared without doubts.

[el cid again]

Actually - if you read it right - the manual says the same thing - at least at some points. It may be other things are/were intended - and slot ranges may indeed have some potential - but I am talking IMPLEMENTED slots. IF you copy a support device it will NOT work as a support device.

[Dili]

My sole source is this phrase in Editor Manual: 

Aircraft engines and various support squads need to remain in slots 236-256.

[el cid again]

OK - but don't read it like a lawyer. It does not mean these are all support slots. It means whatever MATRIX puts in those slots is hard coded and cannot be moved. It does not mean WE can hard code anything in any of them. I tried to work with engines here - but they won't report properly - due to hard code. Ugly stuff. I hate hard code.