Kyushu J7W "Shinden"

[Bobthehatchit]

The J7W1 was designed as a high speed interceptor fighter with great firepower and high climb rate to intercept the B-29 Superfortresses.
First, the canard concept was tested with three MXY6 gliders, then a designing team with captain Masaoki Tsuruno (Imperial Japanese Navy)
developed the J7W1. Two prototypes were built, the first had its first flight on august, 3rd 1945. The second was never tested.
It was an all-metal construction with a full retractable landing gear and a six-blade-propeller. Quantity production was undertaken,
but no production aircraft had been completed due to end of the war.
The J7W2 version was planned to get a 900kp Ne-130 axial turbojet instead of the radial powerplant.
Two J71W prototypes were completed in the spring of 1945 at the Zasshonokuma plant of Kyushu Hikoki K.K.

http://www.airbornegrafix.com/HistoricA ... gn/J7W.htm

Does anyone actually know how well this plane would have actually performed? As far as I have read so far the Japanies only managed to get one prototype into the air before the end of the war. The US captured this plane and took it back the states, did they test fly it?

[rtrapasso]

Who knows how well it would have eventually performed?

One prototype was test flown for a grand total of 45 minutes (there are even a couple of film clips floating around the web)... while promising, there were problems - overheating of the engine on the ground, bad torque on takeoff, and severe vibrations in the engine and extended drive shaft. (Drive shaft problems seem to be a recurring problem in IJ aircraft).

IIRC, a somewhat similar German aircraft, the DO-335 Pfeil had some stability problems with "porpoising" when airborn at speed. i am not sure if the Japanese flight tests ever got far enough to reveal possible similar problems. REEDIT - i will note that the Pfeil had a pusher-puller design, a longer fuselage, and lacked the "canards" the Shinden had. i suspect the difference of the canards alone might have alleviated any possible porpoising problem).

EDIT - Francillon does not say if the US test flew it, but i suspect it would have been mentioned if they had done it.

[Iridium]

Well, statistically the plane is impressive. However, even if we assume Japan could field enough pilots with the needed training to fly the J7W1 how many would they make? Even if they make 100 and have top notch pilots for them, the US' sheer mass of planes would still win. Limited resources and very few pilots would have made the J7W1 similar to the Jack or Ki-84, good planes but teething problems and general war conditions make running them difficult. It might make B-29 raids more costly but in no way would it change the outcome of the war.

It's similar to the Sherman/Tiger argument, clearly an individual tank is better than the other. That said, when you have 10 of any tank for 1 of the superior...quality matters little.

[rtrapasso]

Japan projected making maybe 30 per month at one plant, and 120/month at another, but that was considered "unduly optimistic". The IJN was desperate enough to put it into production before the first test flight - always a good formula to avoid teething problems for a complex aircraft... [8|] [:'(]

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

The only possible comment is "too little too late"... [;)]

Joking aside - the aircraft looks nicely and if it flew good it might have helped Japan to, possibly, "buy some time" - but the inevitable defeat would surely come one way or another (invasion or A-bomb)!

The numerical superiority of USA coupled with technological superiority (though some late war Japanese aircraft designs were very interesting and, possibly, they might have been competitive with USA aircraft designs if produced in numbers) sealed Japanese fate long time before Kyushu J7W "Shinden" showed up...


Leo "Apollo11"

[Bobthehatchit]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Who knows how well it would have eventually performed?

One prototype was test flown for a grand total of 45 minutes (there are even a couple of film clips floating around the web)... while promising, there were problems - overheating of the engine on the ground, bad torque on takeoff, and severe vibrations in the engine and extended drive shaft. (Drive shaft problems seem to be a recurring problem in IJ aircraft).

IIRC, a somewhat similar German aircraft, the DO-335 Pfeil had some stability problems with "porpoising" when airborn at speed. i am not sure if the Japanese flight tests ever got far enough to reveal possible similar problems. REEDIT - i will note that the Pfeil had a pusher-puller design, a longer fuselage, and lacked the "canards" the Shinden had. i suspect the difference of the canards alone might have alleviated any possible porpoising problem).

EDIT - Francillon does not say if the US test flew it, but i suspect it would have been mentioned if they had done it.

Cool thanks for the info.

I know its production would have been academic due to the state of play at the time just interested to find out more info about the type and its performance.

[wdolson]

A discussion of the J7W from another forum: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/kyushu-j7w1-shinden-canard-prototype-4615.html

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: Bobthehatchit

The J7W1 was designed as a high speed interceptor fighter with great firepower and high climb rate to intercept the B-29 Superfortresses.
First, the canard concept was tested with three MXY6 gliders, then a designing team with captain Masaoki Tsuruno (Imperial Japanese Navy)
developed the J7W1. Two prototypes were built, the first had its first flight on august, 3rd 1945. The second was never tested.
It was an all-metal construction with a full retractable landing gear and a six-blade-propeller. Quantity production was undertaken,
but no production aircraft had been completed due to end of the war.
The J7W2 version was planned to get a 900kp Ne-130 axial turbojet instead of the radial powerplant.
Two J71W prototypes were completed in the spring of 1945 at the Zasshonokuma plant of Kyushu Hikoki K.K.

http://www.airbornegrafix.com/HistoricA ... gn/J7W.htm

Does anyone actually know how well this plane would have actually performed? As far as I have read so far the Japanies only managed to get one prototype into the air before the end of the war. The US captured this plane and took it back the states, did they test fly it?

Basically comes down to the same problem the Germans had. First they didn't plan for large enough production or pilot training to meet the needs of a long war..., then in desperation they began trying to catch up by building super-advanced designs more suitible for "the next war". In the end they were overwhelmed by a huge mass of "good enough". Basically, both paid the price for assuming they could fight a "short victorious war" without consulting the opposition on it's plans

[Thilo]

As far as I remember, the first "test flight" ended with the propeller ends being damaged after contact with the runway during takeoff. That postponed further testing a bit. There were some pictures about this damage somewhere in the net, but don't ask me where.

[Bobthehatchit]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

A discussion of the J7W from another forum: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-pictures/kyushu-j7w1-shinden-canard-prototype-4615.html

Nice link thanks.

[spence]

I've noticed in at least 1 AAR (which I guess is in 45 sometime) the Japanese Player is salivating over the beginning of production (or maybe deployment) of this aircraft. It has nice stats for sure. But with probably less than 10 hours total flying time IRL (between the Japanese and the US) it would seem there ought to be a real downside possible to rushing research and so forth. These kind of "wunderwaffen" sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. I think the Japanese should be able to invest in all their scientists' wet dreams but after spending 60 billion supply pts find out that they've come up with a really cool looking Nate (forgot its number).

Though the probabilities should be weighted towards producing a Nate there should be a very small chance of producing an F16 sorta thing - just so the Japanese Player doesn't know what he's gonna get til he's spent all the capital (supply).

[String]

Perhaps assign it an insane number of engines (15?) to make its production costs skyrocket.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: spence

I've noticed in at least 1 AAR (which I guess is in 45 sometime) the Japanese Player is salivating over the beginning of production (or maybe deployment) of this aircraft. It has nice stats for sure. But with probably less than 10 hours total flying time IRL (between the Japanese and the US) it would seem there ought to be a real downside possible to rushing research and so forth. These kind of "wunderwaffen" sometimes worked and sometimes didn't.

I see a two-fold problem with deploying this A/C in the game. First, the game seems to equate a proto-type with an actual production-ready design (one of the reasons Tony's arrive in squadron service 6-8 months early). This proto-type was obviously (from the test reports) months away from being a production design. Add to that the sorry state of Japanese production in quality-control even before 1945 and the possibility of seeing a "combat version" of this design before mid-1946 is dismally small. Then you have the pilot problem. This was going to be a totally new kind of "beast" to fly, and require a LOT of training and familiarization hours to handle. For the kind of pilots the Japanese could put in the air by the Fall of 1945, a flight in this A/C was most likely just a kamikaze mission against terra firma.

[rtrapasso]

i THINK this is thrown in for the Japanese player to give them a little bit of hope in 1945-6... this is a game, and is supposed to be fun for both sides...

And it ISN'T much fun if all you get is hammered without any hope for months on end.

Again, this is not an accurate historical sim, nor was it designed to be.

[JReb]

It probably would have performed poorly. The captured plane was obviously examined and tested by the Americans and if the technology was worth anything it would have been copied or emulated in some way.
 
US a/c did not evolve in a "Shinden" manner or style, the plane was dismissed or pprobably received a poor evaluation at the least.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: JReb

It probably would have performed poorly. The captured plane was obviously examined and tested by the Americans and if the technology was worth anything it would have been copied or emulated in some way.

US a/c did not evolve in a "Shinden" manner or style, the plane was dismissed or pprobably received a poor evaluation at the least.

AFAIK - the Shinden was never tested in the US - (the referenced web site
said it was never flown here). Probably they took it apart, and never quite got around to putting it back together (it is supposedly being restored now, or is supposed to be in the near future)...

Jet aircraft were much faster and more versatile (i would hate trying to land a Shinden on an aircraft carrier!!) and jet aircraft development made prop plane development sort of a backwater.

[PzB74]

It's good that they included the Reppu and Shindens in WitP. If Matrix also had included Bearcats and Dominators
for the US it would have been more easy to accept it. As it is US fighters like Corsairs, Mustangs and T-bolts
are so superior to what the Japs got by 1944-45 that the Allies can achieve extreme results even against superior numbers of top notch Jap fighters flown by vet pilots. In reality George and Frank fighters flown by top pilots were a challenge for most Allied fighters. A separate air 2 air combat rating for pilots that can't be trained to more than 55-60 combined with more emphasis on pilot skills would have been SOOOOOO right!

What many do is to compare the situation in 1945 with the situation in a pbem game.
IF you perform better than in RL and prevent the Allies from torching and strangling the Home Islands by 1944-45,
it should be possible to introduce the Shinden and produce it in numbers. Quality would also have been better if raw materials had been more easily available. Had my opponent(s) captured Luzon and the Marianas by 1944 my ability to research and produce these ac would have
been torched... [:'(]

A more realistic deployment date should perhaps have been 11/45 for the Shinden and 10/45 for the Reppu.
As it is I have researched the Shinden for 5-6 months, now got some 430 researched.
Advancements have been non existent - almost in June 45 now. From 01/46 both sides should have been able to introduce jet fighters. This would give both sides something to look forward to!
Kikka vs P-80s [8D]

Even if the Americans tested both the Shinden and Do-335 designs and were impressed by them, they also realized
that the jet age had arrived and scrapped most conventional prop fighter designs.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: PzB

It's good that they included the Reppu and Shindens in WitP. If Matrix also had included Bearcats and Dominators for the US it would have been more easy to accept it. As it is US fighters like Corsairs, Mustangs and T-bolts are so superior to what the Japs got by 1944-45 that the Allies can achieve extreme results even against superior numbers of top notch Jap fighters flown by vet pilots. In reality George and Frank fighters flown by top pilots were a challenge for most Allied fighters. A separate air 2 air combat rating for pilots that can't be trained to more than 55-60 combined with more emphasis on pilot skills would have been SOOOOOO right!

Gotta agree with this..., a good pilot in a Frank or a George was a pretty fair match for Allied A/C if the numbers were relatively equal.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: PzB

What many do is to compare the situation in 1945 with the situation in a pbem game.
IF you perform better than in RL and prevent the Allies from torching and strangling the Home Islands by 1944-45, it should be possible to introduce the Shinden and produce it in numbers. Quality would also have been better if raw materials had been more easily available. Had my opponent(s) captured Luzon and the Marianas by 1944 my ability to research and produce these ac would have
been torched... [:'(]

Here you would still have problems. The Japanese Industrial Base was simply too small to support the kind of massive expansion a lengthly war forced on them. Even with a steady supply of materials they would still be faced with a massive dilution of the available skilled labor needed to utilize it, and a critical shortage of machine tools and plant space. Not to mention the IJA's habit of drafting skilled men from plants supporting the IJN. Quality was going to suffer as the war dragged on even with no material shortage.

[PzB74]

Don't forget that I hired Albert 'Tojo' Speer to optimize my armaments industry Mike [:D]

The production numbers in this game could be reduced _severly_ if you reduced A2A lethality.
I would have been happy not having to re-equipp and train every single Daitai over again after a single engagements..*grumble*