The best laid plans of mice and men

[grumpyman]

After finally getting grasp of the rules enough to be able to at least know somewhat
as to I am doing, I have taken another shot at scenario 16. I have made it March 1,
1942 and since February 25, 1942 I have been dealing with my first crisis. Let me first set
the stage a bit. Keep in mind I am still a newbie playing again the Japanese AI.

This time out I decided to really plan ahead. My strategy was to build a line where I was
going to make a stand. This line would start at Port Moresby and run through New Caledonia,
Luganville, Nanomea Atoll, Baker Island, and Johnson Island. Early, I left a handful of AKs in the
Philippines to strip supplies from weak spots and ship them to Bataan. The rest I left empty or if able
filled them with resources and sent them in single ship convoys for Australia. I did pretty much the
same in Borneo, and Java. I left the warships in the Philippines and In Borneo to harrass as long as
possible.

In Southeast Asia I followed pretty much the same tactics, except the flee point point was to Karachi.
I sent Capital ships there fleeing also. Prince of Wales and Repulse are now in Karachi. Most of
the Dutch fleet in in Cairns. Its seems an almost useless fleet but I can probably use it as fodder
at some point.

As for my plan I have two major supply hubs, one in the Central Pacific and one in The South Pacific. In the
Central Pacific the major hub is of course Pearl. In the South PAcific the hub is Suva. All Supplies and fuel
from the West coast go to one of these hubs. I also have a minor hub in Brisbane and one in Palmyra which draw
from a major hub. At this point I have 210,000 supply in Pearl and 92,000 in Suva and growing. I am not in heavy
combat yet but the hubs so far are keeping other points well supplied. All my current APs are in clustered
in mothballs in 3 locations in the South Pacific. I am saving them for when I get a chance to go on the
offensive. Future AP as they become available will now be going to the Central PAcific, at least for now.
I have the 2nd Marine division in Wellington and the Americal in Noumea I want to save them for future
offensive operations.

Now for my crisis. The Coral Sea is infested with Japanese subs. I have been running heavy ASW there the
result being losing heavily in DD and MSW in my ASW squadrons. On the flip side according to intellience
I have not bagged one sub. On February 25 the crisis appeared the AK Nebraskan carrying a fighter group
to Port Moresby was sunk. I had 4 DD in accompanying the AK and perhaps they served as a magnet. That
leaves me a Squadron wirraways as the only thing close to fighter protection at Port Moresby. It is too
late to cry about it I have to figure out what to do.

I have already taken the political hit and transfered the 45th FS to the Southwest theater. That gives me
24 P-40E warhawks. I have also split the 18th FG based in Suva into squadrons and will loan the Southwest
theater one squadron of 19 P-40B Tomahawks. The problem is at some point I will have to put these in ships.
I think the safest route would be to Brisbane, then let them hop the rest of the way. Next I am sending for
ASW help from Pearl. I may be just wasting more ships. I really don't have a lot of air resources for
ASW either. I am doing a little in that area.

Any comments would be welcome.

[LarryP]

No helpful comments from me, but I enjoyed reading your AAR. I too am a newbie at playing against the Japanese AI. Every time I think I am learning this game, more comes out with production, troop movements, scoring, etc. that shows me I don't know squat! [:@]

Man the hatches, load the torpedoes and all that stuff. Good luck. [;)]

[Anthropoid]

Sounds like you have Japanese sub doctrine off? If so, you can always turn it back on and continue playing. The Jap AI will go after your AKs and APs much less often then. Have not played WiTP for years, been playing WPO recently, so this is just an idea: keep an eye on your ASW capable ships. They'll have different capabilities and use them appropriately, e.g., put ships of the same speed into TFs together. Use the more modern ASW ships with sonar and radar and such for your problem areas, and maybe use the less capable ones as escorts. Also, it is evidently better to have many, many freighters per escort. I'd say 20 freighters per ASW escort. Say you had 25 AKs and 10 TKs in a TF, maybe put one or two slowish ASW ships (one that has a similar max speed to the freighters) in that TF, and then also have an ASW TF of up to 6 more modern quick and agile ASW ships set to Mission speed and following the transport TF. Also keep an eye out for DD upgrades. Also, set some patrol planes, bombers, whatever you have on hand, to ASW patrol at about 1000 to 3000 ft alt.

[spence]

Use the 4-pipers for ASW. Until the 4/42 upgrades most of your DDs rate as only a 2 for ASW (Check rating in upper right of ship screen). The Aussies have MSWs that are good too IIRC (ASW-4)

[BrucePowers]

Use your Aussir minesweepers for ASW as Spence said. If they are lost, they respawn in 6 months. Move your convoy routes south. Also, put as many of your planes as you can on naval search at 1 to 4 thousand feet. Do not put them on ASW. This will cut their range in half.

[Gem35]

Another good strat is to place plenty of patrol craft on ASW duties, I even use some of my LBA(mitchels and flying forts) for Anti-sub operations in the coral sea, I base them out of Port Moresby or Lunga once I can secure the area from those pesky Jap landing forces.
Air-based ASW has been very effective in locating them and use 3 ship flush deck class destroyer TFs to blow them out of the water.

[grumpyman]

Well a few more things are making sense.  I had a TF of 5 bird class MSW out there.  Four of them are at the bottom of the sea.  I just looked at the remaining one and see its ASW rating was only one.  The DDs that were sent to the bottom were all Mahan class (ASW rating 2).  I also had a TF of 4 flush deck class and although they
haven't gotten any subs they are intact.  I am bringing 3 Aussie MSW over from Darwin.  They seem to be very shot legged.  I will have to bring them into cairns before I can use them.  I think the others would need at sea replenishment to get into the Port Moresby area so I think for now I will just work them in the area where they are and try to run up experience level.  I have now lowered altitudes for ASW patrols I had been running them at
the default 6000.  It is March 10, 1942 now and the stuff is starting to hit the fan at Port Moresby.  I am getting daily air raids on Port Moresby from Rabaul.  I think the Japanese are getting ready to take Buna.  They have the Shortlands and will soon be hitting me from there also.  I need fighters!  But the fighters are only slowly making their way to Brisbane by ship.  Then they will have to be put in flying condition and make the hop to cairns, then Port Moresby.  I hope they are not to late.  I suspect they will arrive like the calvary.  Back in January I sent Gull Force to Gili Gili and loaned some Engineers from Noumea to build up some fortifications but the work is going slow.  Hopefully the Japanese will try to take Gili Gili before Port Moresby and be slow down.  I also have The big E, Lex, and Sara waiting for them.[:D]

[Gibbons]

 
GMan where are your B-17s? I'm at Jan '43 in scen 15. I landed at Lunga as soon as I could after start of the game, maybe 4 months? Then moved 2 B-17 groups there and started high level bombing of Rabaul airfield. Losses were moderate at first, but the near nonstop bombing produced results. Once the 1st group of B-24s arrived at Lunga, they and the B-17s started doing a number on Rabaul. At the start you have to balance bombing with losses, sometimes taking a few days (or a week or more) off to replenish planes, fatigue, and morale etc...but keep it going all the time. After another 2 B-24 bomber groups arrived at Lunga Rabaul was reduced to dirt and made useless to the Japs. They had 100 ships docked there and I bombed the holly hell out of 6-8 Jap BBs and many CA, DD, and subs.


Your front line looks to be the farthest out I'd go at the start. Johnston, Baker, Nanoumea, Noumea were the front line for me, Christmas, Pago Pago, Suva were the fall back line, though the Japanese never attacked any farther south than Apemama. They took the Shortlands early on and were intent on driving south through the slot bases but I'd throw in bombing runs on the Shortlands port between Rabaul runs and they never got a good foothold.

As for supplies, I run supplies from SF to Palmyra to Noumea to Brisbane and then only up the protected coast of Austalia to Townsville, Cairns, and Cooktown. The area just north of Brisbane to Port Moresby, over to Gili Gili are off limits to AKs/APs/AOs etc.. except when no other option exists. Early on the MSW all went to the bottom. I tranferred all but a few U.S. DDs to Brisbane and formed a 12-16 ship ASW TF. It was effective although I did lose DDs. That isn't avoidable. For supply runs to PM I set all AKs on full speed and hope for the best! And the thing about Port Moresby is if KB shows up it doesn't matter what you have there, you are going to lose it. So stock up on fighters there but as soon as KB shows itself in the area move them away to a safe base. Wirraways drop like flies in front of the KB airforce, as does everything else early in the war. In fact, early on, whenever KB showed up near Wewak or around Rabaul, I moved all ships along the Aussie coast to Brisbane immediately. I think KB can move 6 hexes a turn. If they find something of yours you'll lose it. Likely you already know this but I'll mention it anyway.

This is my first WITP game and am now master of the Pacific. Over '42 I stayed clear of KB (mandatory), built up PM (now with 3 F4F, 1 P38, 2 Hurricane, and other fighter groups, totalling maybe 150+ fighters along with many bomber groups), Lunga (90,000 troops, 2 B-17 groups plus P38s, SBDs, P39s, F4Fs etc..), and Woodlark Island (which the Japs contended ferociously). About a month ago KB wandered down to Woodlark to try to once and for all clear that base out. I lost 50 B26, 15 F4Fs, and 30 P40s. However, P38s (and F4Fs from Woodlark and Munda) flying cap knocked down a good number of KBs zeros. Aha, good news I'm thinking, as I have many B-26, B-25, and B-17s in the area. As well as 2 CV TFs I moved up from Brisbane when I saw KB coming south from Wewak. ( I generally shadow KB with US CVs while keeping a very safe distance, just in case). So the Hornet and Enterprise were hanging out south of Lunga; Wasp, along with 2 CVEs loaded with SBDs, was a little northeast of Lunga. Throw in the 20 subs I had in the area between Munda, Gili, Rabaul, and Buka and I'm starting to get butterflies like KB may have bitten off more than it can chew. They decimated Woodlark but lost almost all of their fighter cap in the process. Many of the dive bombers and torpedo planes were damaged as well so at some point you just decide now is the time to try it. Sent Hornet and Enterprise northwest for a direct air attack, moved Wasp northwest to shadow Enterprise, set all LBA fighters to long range cap the TFs and all LBA bombers on naval attack with 60% search. Next turn they attacked first, Enterprise and Hornet. They lost many dive bombers and torp planes with minor damage to a few ships. The LBA fighter coverage was right there. Counter attack the Soryu was sunk near the Shortlands and Hiryu badly damaged. So now I know the jig is up. Sent Wasp in for the attack, as well as all the subs. Next turn they attacked first again (if I remember correctly). A little damage to U.S. ships and a few aircraft losses. Enterprise and Hornet attack again badly damaging Shokaku. Subs also get hits on the Shokaku, not sunk but water has to be pouring into the hull. Wasp not in range yet. Next turn my TFs had moved away, south! What the hell is that! So I send them north again as KB is trying to get to Truk it appears (last seen around Buin). Next turn Enterprise, Hornet, Wasp, and CVEs attack, sinking  Hiryu and Zuikaku. Shokaku, Kaga, Akagi badly damaged. Then, with their last 3 CVs KB dissapears. Huh? Subs in every hex north of Shortlands, land based PBYs searching and nothing! Subs I have near Truk report a CV moving south from Truk, must be a CVL I assume so I move my CVs north to try to catch KB before they get away. No luck, can't find them so I retire south and move subs north a few hexes to search with no luck. A week later the other Jap CVs show up in intel having sunk near Buka. Sweet revenge!!

Rather long and maybe not the right place for this but I'm still a semi noober to this gig. 

Hope that helped G Man! LOL


Gibbons 

[Alfred]

grumpyman,
 
The Jap submarines in the Coral Sea will usually move inside the Great Barrier Reef between Townsville and Cooktown.  To combat them the following measures will be useful.
 
1.  Move all Australian MSW to Townsville (Cairns is optional hub).  From this base form ASW TF of 6 MSW (do not use DD) to patrol 1 hex due east of Townsville and Cairns.  At first you will lose more MSW than inflict hits on subs but as their experience grows, this will change.
 
2.  Ensure that at least one squadron of Australian Command RAAF Hudsons, flying 100% naval search, is based at Rockhampton, Townsville, Cairns and Cooktown.  Concentrate RAAF patrol and float squadrons in this area also.
 
3.  If feasible, base short range US bombers/PBY Catalinas at Gili Gili on 100% naval search to catch subs on transit to Coral Sea from Rabaul.
 
In essence, do not expose DD/MSW to Betty attack from Rabaul.  Pick off the subs as they enter the coastal waters through the gaps in the coral reef off Townsville and Cairns.
 
Alfred

[saj42]

If you are regularly resupplying PM the Jap AI will place lots of subs in Townsville area.
As I have done before (and others said above)
1. Place RAAF Hudsons and all PBY/Cats you can spare on Naval search, 4000ft
2. Base them at Rockhampton, Townsville, Cooktown, Cairns.
3. Base several ASW TFs at Towsville - 4-6 Oz MSW each

Hopefully if the a/c keep the subs busy your MSWs will become the hunter not the hunted. You will loose ships but this will decrease as exp grows. you could bring the NZ PGs up from Aukland as they have a decent ASW value. If you can spare a few Brit DDs then even better.

[rockmedic109]

If you've hit {actually hit as opposed to near misses that cause minor flooding} a sub twice, it will likely sink.  It will take two months to show up as sunk on the list {three months when you factor in that the sub sinks two weeks later}. 
 
Play with Japanese Sub Doctrine ON.  As above, base your ASW assets at Townesville.  After an ASW tf makes an attack, bring it in to base to resupply it.  ASW now uses up a lot of ammo.  A 1:1 loss ratio for the allies is a win.  Allies get the assets, the Japanese don't.

[niceguy2005]

Japanese subs in the early months are an annoyance. My suggestion is don't go hunt them until your DDs start to upgrade. Use your DDs for convoy escort along with some MSWs. They won't sink much but they will scare off a lot of the subs.

That early in the war your pilots won't be skilled enough to get many attacks on subs and you bombers are going to be better used elsewhere. You can put some of them on naval search though and use them to spot subs and then direct your TFs around the subs.

If you do set up an ASW TF pay attention to the TF leader. Pick a commander that is aggressive and has high Naval skill.

Edit: I just reread your post. Whenever possible split your air units and load them onto different transport ships. If you are shipping a squadron (which you can't split) take the long, safe way around. Japanese subs are tough in the first few months.

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

grumpyman,

The Jap submarines in the Coral Sea will usually move inside the Great Barrier Reef between Townsville and Cooktown. To combat them the following measures will be useful.

1. Move all Australian MSW to Townsville (Cairns is optional hub). From this base form ASW TF of 6 MSW (do not use DD) to patrol 1 hex due east of Townsville and Cairns. At first you will lose more MSW than inflict hits on subs but as their experience grows, this will change.

2. Ensure that at least one squadron of Australian Command RAAF Hudsons, flying 100% naval search, is based at Rockhampton, Townsville, Cairns and Cooktown. Concentrate RAAF patrol and float squadrons in this area also.

3. If feasible, base short range US bombers/PBY Catalinas at Gili Gili on 100% naval search to catch subs on transit to Coral Sea from Rabaul.

In essence, do not expose DD/MSW to Betty attack from Rabaul. Pick off the subs as they enter the coastal waters through the gaps in the coral reef off Townsville and Cairns.

Alfred

I been wondering what to do about all those Japanese subs! Thanks, I will try this. [&o]

[niceguy2005]

Larry P is right, plus if you engage the subs in shallow water the will be at a disadvantage.

Also, if you aren't already make sure you run your ASW TFs in groups of 4 or more. ASW TFs of 1 or 2 ships are vulnerable to sub attack.

[LarryP]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Larry P is right, plus if you engage the subs in shallow water the will be at a disadvantage.

Also, if you aren't already make sure you run your ASW TFs in groups of 4 or more. ASW TFs of 1 or 2 ships are vulnerable to sub attack.

Don't you mean that Alfred is right? I had no advice, I am just taking it from you guys. [:D]

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: LarryP

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Larry P is right, plus if you engage the subs in shallow water the will be at a disadvantage.

Also, if you aren't already make sure you run your ASW TFs in groups of 4 or more. ASW TFs of 1 or 2 ships are vulnerable to sub attack.

Don't you mean that Alfred is right? I had no advice, I am just taking it from you guys. [:D]

Yep [;)]

[grumpyman]

I am finding the reponses in this thread very useful, lots of good information here. Let me update the situation and make a few comments. I did a marathon session yesterday putting me at March 27 (looks like another marathon today). Things have changed much for both the better and the worse. The better? The hub system of supply is working better than expected. My forces are on double rations and getting lots of USO. The worse? Despite changing tactics the infestation has gotten worse. Amazingly the last campaign where I didn't have a clue as to what I was doing my sub problems were nowhere near as bad. (NOTE: I have been playing with Jap sub doctrine ON.). I
have also commited two more blunders. Both blunders happened trying to patch up the damage done losing a FG to a submarine.

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Whenever possible split your air units and load them onto different transport ships. If you are shipping a squadron (which you can't split) take the long, safe way around. Japanese subs are tough in the first few months.

That was the head slapper my brain sent me immediately after losing the air group.

Now for the blunders. As I explained before I had virtually no fighter protection at Port Moresby. Rabaul had begun bombing PM in earnest.

Blunder No. 1: Missing the easy fix. I had a RAAF fighter squadron of kittyhawks at Charter Tower. If I would have looked at the active squadron list instead of going by what I though I had I would not have stumbled in the next blunder on the list.

Blunder No 2: So far in this campaign I have had the fewest loses I have experienced
yet. I am still experiencing very few losses. That makes losing a FG hard to except and I didn't want to except the resulting losses in PM. So I sent my carriers to provide fighter coverage while I was bringing fighters from other area to fill the gap. So what happens Sara takes a torp from a sub in her side. 44 sys damage. I race her for Townsville.

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The Jap submarines in the Coral Sea will usually move inside the Great Barrier Reef between Townsville and Cooktown.  To combat them the following measures will be useful.

Yep, I sure discovered that fact I got Sara out of there quick and headed for Noumea.

All in all after switching to tactics suggested the subs have in the area around PM have thinned. But, subs have now spread out across the South Pacific especially around my major supply hub of Suva. On my last turn of March 26, 4 hexes from Suva the Lex took a torp, 53 sys damage, 34 FLT, and 10 fire. If she makes Suva she should recover. But looks like I am sending two CV to the coast. Might as well do the upgrades, they are out for months anyway. Yorktown has been on the way south to deliver VMF 111 so I guess she will stay there.

ORIGINAL: Gibbons

GMan where are your B-17s?

They are doing naval searches for subs well out of the reach of the enemy. Other than that they are getting fat on double rations and watching USO shows. I think Lana Turner will be in Wellington Tomorrow. Now that PM has plenty of fighters and is well supplied (over 40,000). Their experience level is rising quickly and they are giving more than receiving in the air. I want the Japs to come into my hornets nest, I will go into theirs when I am good and ready. I am more than willing to let them wear themselves down
on their way getting to me. Meanwhile I am on my way to Wellington to inspect the troops. Maybe I can find someone there to have dinner with me.

As for short term plans I want to continue planning for the offensive. I am having 4 AK converted to AR. I want to set up some forward flee points. I am also converting 2 AK into AD and 2 AK into MLE. I want to run my offensive like an assembly line.

Thanks for the help guys. I am sure I will have more questions. The faucet is beginning to open on the WC and I got to decide how to use the new ships appearing off the line. I will be reading more of the must read threads while turns are running.

[rockmedic109]

You will want more than four ARs.  Put four at SF, Seattle, LA and SD and you will have a LOT of repair capacity on the West Coast.  Another 4 at Noumea or Auckland {Auckland is further but also has a small repair yard}.  Another four at Sydney.  Another four at Colombo helps in the Indian Ocean. 
 
You will also want four ARs in a rapid repair force to follow your major operations and set up shop in small ports near the action....saves lots of ships.  These or another four ARs can be a ready force to go out and save critical units that get damaged.

[niceguy2005]

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

You will want more than four ARs.  Put four at SF, Seattle, LA and SD and you will have a LOT of repair capacity on the West Coast.  Another 4 at Noumea or Auckland {Auckland is further but also has a small repair yard}.  Another four at Sydney.  Another four at Colombo helps in the Indian Ocean. 

You will also want four ARs in a rapid repair force to follow your major operations and set up shop in small ports near the action....saves lots of ships.  These or another four ARs can be a ready force to go out and save critical units that get damaged.

I agree you will want to convert more AKs to ARs. I like 3-4 at all my west coast bases and Pearl. However, you will also want another 20 or so to move to more forward ports - you don't want to have to tow badly damaged cruisers all the way to SF to get repaired. You will want ARs at Karachi, Colombo, Auckland, and some more forward areas.

Edit: obviously you don't want to do all the conversions at once and create an AK shortage.

[grumpyman]

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

You will want more than four ARs.  Put four at SF, Seattle, LA and SD and you will have a LOT of repair capacity on the West Coast.  Another 4 at Noumea or Auckland {Auckland is further but also has a small repair yard}.  Another four at Sydney.  Another four at Colombo helps in the Indian Ocean. 

You will also want four ARs in a rapid repair force to follow your major operations and set up shop in small ports near the action....saves lots of ships.  These or another four ARs can be a ready force to go out and save critical units that get damaged.

I agree you will want to convert more AKs to ARs. I like 3-4 at all my west coast bases and Pearl. However, you will also want another 20 or so to move to more forward ports - you don't want to have to tow badly damaged cruisers all the way to SF to get repaired. You will want ARs at Karachi, Colombo, Auckland, and some more forward areas.

Edit: obviously you don't want to do all the conversions at once and create an AK shortage.

I agree fully. When I said I was building 4 AR I should have said 4 Ar for that turn. Unfortunately, I waited that long to order my first conversions. I should have done some on the first turn of the game. I have been doing some power playing over the past few days and most likely to continue to do so at least until monday (maybe I would have been better off becoming a crack addict). I am at may 7 now. I have 10 ARs on back order. I think I may need more than 20 latter in the game for multiple offenses. You guys have been there before, late game I mean, I haven't. I think I am now in a position where I can launch a minor offensive as early as July or August. I could launch one now but I have a goal in this game of keeping my casualties close to historical levels. The first time I did this, and got to April of 43 I bulldozed my way and by the time I threw in the towel I saw the best I would do victory points wise would be a draw. This time I am going to the end. I want to do some strategic bombing[:D].

My thinking for a minor offensive is either the historical one at Guadacanal (that is where my father was wounded, maybe I can save him[;)]). Or I can try Timor, but at this stage that's would be hard to supply. One more option is the Gilberts at this time it may not be as tough a nut to crack as it would be later and it would shorten my supply lines to the South Pacific.

My the way the enemy sub threat has been reduced to a nuisanse. I wish the Japanese would take Wake already the original force has cleared the beaches of Japs 5 times already will the AI figure out it is a size 3 fort now and they need a bigger force to take it? Or will they just keep bumping their heads?