Rank them, please...

Commander – Europe at War Gold is the first in a series of high level turn based strategy games. The first game spans WW2, allowing players to control the axis or allied forces through the entire war in the European Theatre.
JonBrave
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Rank them, please...

Post by JonBrave »

OK, here's a really simple question for you PC strategic WWII gamers out there.

Please rate the following games in order (best to worst). I am looking for AI challenge (which I will count as playability/replayability). If you want to rate multiplayer, please start your own thread! [:-][;)]

[ol]
[*] Commander Europe at War
[*] Strategic Command (I and/or II, I have #I only)
[*] Gary Grigsby's World at War (I have original)
[*] Hearts of Iron (I and/or II, I have #I only)
[*] Clash of Steel (I have original, couldn't get "Future Edition" to run)
[*] World in Flames (the forthcoming version [;)])
[*] I don't want to know about High Command, old CWiF, Third Reich, anything else :)
[/ol]

There, now that shouldn't be controversial, should it...?
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targul
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by targul »

SC2, HOI2, Commander, World at War,
 
Never played Clash of Steel and World in Flames has been many years in making and will probably be many more if it is ever released.
Jim

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mavraamides
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by mavraamides »

ORIGINAL: JonBrave

OK, here's a really simple question for you PC strategic WWII gamers out there.

Please rate the following games in order (best to worst). I am looking for AI challenge (which I will count as playability/replayability). If you want to rate multiplayer, please start your own thread! [:-][;)]

[ol]
[*] Commander Europe at War
[*] Strategic Command (I and/or II, I have #I only)
[*] Gary Grigsby's World at War (I have original)
[*] Hearts of Iron (I and/or II, I have #I only)
[*] Clash of Steel (I have original, couldn't get "Future Edition" to run)
[*] World in Flames (the forthcoming version [;)])
[*] I don't want to know about High Command, old CWiF, Third Reich, anything else :)
[/ol]

There, now that shouldn't be controversial, should it...?

OK, based solely on AI challenge, I feel I can coment on these games:
[ol]
[*] Gary Grigsby's World at War - Most challenging AI but then it has the least info to manage because of limited number of regions.
[*] Commander Europe at War - So far, so good, but I'm sure the more I play, the more obvious weaknesses I'll find. (Human nature)
[*] Strategic Command II - Much better than SC1 but I never really found it difficult to beat the AI.
[*] Strategic Command I - Was fun, but never really challenging.
[*] Hearts of Iron II - Both of these do an admirable job but its just WAY too much for the AI to manage. The challenge was learning the gaming system, not the AI, IMHO.
[*] Hearts of Iron I - See HOI-2
[/ol]

I think you'll see a pattern there: The larger the map and the more information the game has to manage, the weaker the AI. In this regard, I think CEAW does an admirable job because it is a very large map with a gaming system comperable in complexity to SC2. I really think this game is a lot like SC2 without the months of fine tuning that SC2 has had through patches but I much prefer the hexes to the isolmetric view of SC2. Its a better way to do a war map and it always has been especially when you are modelling encirclement which I think CEAW does much better than SC2.

And not on these, since I have no experience:
World in Flames (obviously)
Clash of Steel (never played)
SMK-at-work
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by SMK-at-work »

1/ SC2
2/ CEAW
3/ HOI
4/ SC1
 
don't have the others
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Forwarn45
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by Forwarn45 »

(1) Gary Grisby's World at War (even better is the sequel, A World Divided)
= I love games that are relatively fast to play, but have interesting strategic choices to make. AI is decent to learn the game, and when you get to the point where you are OK - you can just play one country and let the AI do all the others for a little more challenge. Note - despite the fact that I rate WAW (especially World Divided) as a decent AI, human to human challenge is still better. And this game works well that way.

(2) Clash of Steel
= See above. I have fond memories of this - it was a lot of fun to play "hot seat" style with my high school friends. But AI was not bad either IIRC.

(3) Commander: Europe at War
= Despite putting this in third place, I like the game quite a bit. Certainly, has a lot of potential. AI on Eastern Front is good - on Western Front, not so good (yet)!

Dropping a bit: (4) Hearts of Iron II (5) Hearts of Iron I
= It bugged me that you could take a country like Rumania and make it the master of much of Europe. I would have loved the AI to smack ahistoric (and somewhat crazy) moves down a bit more. AI also had substantial trouble with invasions. Not that thse are bad games. But with it being a time-consuming investment and the AI problems, I had trouble getting into it.

And that's all I've played. World in Flames has some great concepts, but I don't feel confident enough to rate it. AI may not be so good since it is fairly complex. Haven't played Strategic Command.
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JudgeDredd
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by JudgeDredd »

First off JobBrave, this may have been better served in the General Discussion forum being as you are only most likely going to get CEAW players votes in here. Also, I'm not sure it's entirely worth asking about a game that isn't anywhere near completion (WiF)

Just my 2 pennies worth.

But seeing as it is here...
[ol][*]HoI2 - I don't mind the ahistorical and I think it does a good tactical job province wise...whether it does a great job strategic wise, I don't know...so much going on it's hard to say whether it's making mistakes. The game certainly is fun[*]CEAW - again, on a tactical scale, it seems competent, but on a strategic level, I think it's widely known it's quite lazy
[*]GGWaW I suppose I have to put this here. I didn't like the game...3 month turns didn't do it for me...but on a strategic level, it seemed competent...although it has alot less to do tactically than HoI2 and CEAW[/ol]I have not played Clash of Steel or Strategic Command.

I won't rank a game that isn't out, so no grading of World in Flames...except that I am looking forward to it!
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by Phatguy »

Still have a soft spot for High Command...Why? I don't rightly know, but once in a while I crank it up and have a few moments of fun..
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HansBolter
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Still have a soft spot for High Command...Why? I don't rightly know, but once in a while I crank it up and have a few moments of fun..


OMG I LOVED that game!

Got bored with HOI2 after playing it to death. I also played variants like Stony Road and Total Realism Project. Game was lots of fun but had a few quirks resultant from trying to depict strategic operations in a realtime game with 1 hour turn increments such as instantaneous loading of troops on ships ready to ship out 1 hour later......(loved the fact that I didn't have to spend my country's entire war production to BUY the generals the country already HAD long before the war started....obvious dig at CEAW!)

Never took to GGWaW. Played it a few times but never really liked it.

Never played SC2 although I am thinking of picking up a copy.


Hans

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JudgeDredd
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by JudgeDredd »

WOW...High Command...check out the options you are given
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/high- ... tId,58597/

and is it just me, or is SC a clone of it (look at this screenie!)
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/high- ... tId,58592/
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HansBolter
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

WOW...High Command...check out the options you are given
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/high- ... tId,58597/

and is it just me, or is SC a clone of it (look at this screenie!)
http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/high- ... tId,58592/

I thought the same thing when I first saw SC.

I still have the original boxed copy of HC...haven't gotten around to seeing if the disks have rusted or if I can still install it under DosBox. Although when I reinstalled the VfV games I found that old games with arrow keys for scrolling lead to a lot of lost luster when trying to recapture that old enjoyable playing experience.
Hans

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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by Phatguy »

My old disks for High Command have taken a dump many moons ago. Luckily [8|] for me i'm a packrat. I still have old dx 66 with its whopping 16 [X(] megs of ram to play those old gems
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IrishGuards
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by IrishGuards »

1 .. World In Flames ...
2 .. World In Flames ...
3 .. World In Flames ...
4 .. Nurses In Flames ..
5 .. Convoys In Flames ..
6 .. CEaW .. but lets be honest .. with some vision and experience probably could be the best WW 2 game in years .. time will tell
7 .. War In Europe ..
8 .. SC 1 .. Only because the Irish Guards won the Tournament .. Hubert always said he would play against me ... Never happened ... The Irish Guards butchered any and all competition ...
Except .. Terif .. I still believe that he was Hubert ... I could never really damage him the way I did all the others .. He was always ahead of the curve ...
IDG ..

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Happycat
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by Happycat »

I was amused to see some references in this thread to "High Command" by Colorado Computer Creations. It seems like a very long time ago when I was a playtester for this, as well as for Third Reich. OK, now that I have dated myself, here's my two cents worth:

GGWAW-most playable, most immersive, and challenging AI. World Divided is the best version, with all patches applied.

HOI2 (Doomsday variant best)-as noted by others, too much for AI to handle, but for sheer depth of detail, this game gets a vote for second place, due to its play value (it takes a long time to complete just one turn, and the micromanagement opportunities are limitless, if you like that sort of thing)

CEAW-enjoyable game, a bit "beer and pretzel-ish" for now, but a patch may improve things.

SC2 -better than SC1. That's not saying much. Definitely "beer and pretzels". Anyone for "Axis & Allies"?

SC1-see SC2

HOI-not as enjoyable as HOI2, just too many problems and not enough fun to make up for the problems.

WIF-great board game, but so far the PC version is "vapor-ware".
Chance favours the prepared mind
JonBrave
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by JonBrave »

Hmmmm, interesting so far, thank you.
 
In answer to a couple of points:
  • JudgeDredd, I am well aware that I am asking this question in CEAW forum, I was interested in comments from CEAW owners comparing it to the others (I have just bought CEAW myself)
  • WiF was a joke, hence the [;)], as I know it hasn't been released.  I just loved the board game, something about the way the whole thing worked.  From what I have read (posts), I suspect/worry it will be a good game/port but without much attention at all to the AI.  Hope I'm wrong..
  • Interesting rating on SC2.  I have SC1, and quite liked it, but didn't feel like shelling out for SC2, which seemed so similar.  Perhaps I should rethink, guys?
What I really meant/wanted to ask as the original question was "Which game provides the best single-player playing experience?".  Sorry, I don't multiplayer, so it could be as good/bad as it likes, don't care.  Now, "single-player experience" is some mixture of:
[ol][*]if the AI sucks I'm gonna get bored, so I put this first
[*]but also, I'm not asking for a wizzy UI/gameplay, but if it's too laborious/arcane I'll give up
[*]plus, the format has got to "grab me", else I can't be bothered.[/ol]
Don't shoot me down, but for me, for example, I found HoI failed on #2. and GGWaW failed on #3., whatever the AI merits.
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Happycat
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by Happycat »

JonBrave---I believe GGWAW-A World Divided will meet all three of your criteria.
Chance favours the prepared mind
JonBrave
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by JonBrave »

ORIGINAL: Happycat

JonBrave---I believe GGWAW-A World Divided will meet all three of your criteria.

Hmm, my post crossed with yours.

As I say, I have GGWaW as original, not AWD etc. Played it once (I think), but for me I just did not like the scale/system. Felt to me like Risk, which is fine, but I guess not what I found "immersive". Too abstract/largescle I guess. I didn't find there was "much to do". I didn't get that "warm, wet feeling". Perhaps I should blow the dust off........
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HansBolter
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: Happycat

I was amused to see some references in this thread to "High Command" by Colorado Computer Creations. It seems like a very long time ago when I was a playtester for this, as well as for Third Reich. OK, now that I have dated myself, here's my two cents worth:




Are you referring to the computer version of Third Reich or one of several editions of the boardgame?

I was a fanatic Third Reich boardgamer for many, many years and was a playtester for the final version, Advanced Third Reich, even managing to get my name published in the design credits. [8D]

I never played the computer version as I took the word of many who said it sucked and never bothered to see for myself.
Hans

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targul
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by targul »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Happycat

I was amused to see some references in this thread to "High Command" by Colorado Computer Creations. It seems like a very long time ago when I was a playtester for this, as well as for Third Reich. OK, now that I have dated myself, here's my two cents worth:




Are you referring to the computer version of Third Reich or one of several editions of the boardgame?

I was a fanatic Third Reich boardgamer for many, many years and was a playtester for the final version, Advanced Third Reich, even managing to get my name published in the design credits. [8D]

I never played the computer version as I took the word of many who said it sucked and never bothered to see for myself.

There is a replica game of Advanced Third Reich on SC2. It has good AI and can be played by AI, PBEM or IP.

This is my favorite game so if you have or get it give me a hollar. I am always looking for a game of it
Jim

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Hell no I want to kill something!

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IrishGuards
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by IrishGuards »

GGWAW ... whatever ... nay even a WW2 game in my mind ....
Did I forget to say
Irish In Flames ,,,, the new expansion for WiF ,,, [&o]
IDG
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IrishGuards
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RE: Rank them, please...

Post by IrishGuards »

Was that my outloud voice .. [X(]
IDG
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