If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ...

[Pandemic]

Correct me if I am wrong but Germany doesnt start the game at war with Belgium and so can enact different strategies?

Is Germany able to invade Denmark and Holland?
Does Britain start the game at war as part of the Entente against the Central powers or can she join in later?

I so hope this game is available for download purchase today

[7th Somersets]

You are correct - Germany does not start the game at war with Belgium.
 
Germany can invade Holland.
 
Britain starts the game at war with Germany.
 
You have very many options in the game.
 
 

[iamspamus]

Sorry guys, I just need to bring up the fact that Britain declared war on Germany AFTER it entered Belgium. Actually, this gave the Casus Belli (reason for war) that legitimized their declaration. I mean odds are that within a year or so, the Brits would have declared war on Germany, but invading poor neutral Belgium was the impetus...

I assume that this was done for game balance, huh?
Jason

ORIGINAL: 7th Somersets

You are correct - Germany does not start the game at war with Belgium.

Germany can invade Holland.

Britain starts the game at war with Germany.

You have very many options in the game.

[Pandemic]

yeah i was enquiring about that. maybe a first task for the modders but it does open the debate of if Germany doesnt declare war on Belgium, when would Britain have declared war on the Central powers. Also would France have invaded Germany via Belgium / Luxemburg if they get halted on the German border.

[sol_invictus]

The French bounced around a plan to invade Germany through Belgium, but after Plan 17 was adopted, that went by the wayside. I mentioned several times on these forums that I thought British entry into the war should be delayed a bit and random, if Germany doesn't invade Belgium. Frank was very firm in his belief that Britain would enter eventually, whether Germany invaded Belgium or not and I tend to agree. Hopefully, it can be modded in if it is not an optional rule.

[SMK-at-work]

to answer a point that was missed - Denmark is not in the game, so cannot be invaded.

[7th Somersets]

SMK - I can't remember - does Belgian neutrality affect British deployment?

[Berkut]

Germany not starting at war with Belgium, while Great britain starts at war with Germany, simply does not make any sense at all.

That is like starting a WW2 game with Germany not at war with Poland, but France and Britain being at war with Germany.

Britain went to war with Germany *because* of the invasion of Belgium. I could understand the game starting with Germany at war with Belgium, and Briatin and France at war with Germany. I could understand the game starting with Germany NOT at war with Belgium, and Britainnot at war with Germany, and France and Germany at war.

Germany not at war with Belgium, but at war with britain?

Makes no sense.

[sol_invictus]

Berkut, I must agree.

[SVal06]

ORIGINAL: Berkut

I could understand the game starting with Germany NOT at war with Belgium, and Britainnot at war with Germany, and France and Germany at war.

Germany declared war on France on 3rd of August and on the same time invaded Belgium (as it was their plan) --> If Germany are not on war with Belgium, it has no sense also that France and Germany are on war.

But before that, Germany declared war on Russia first as the very beginning of the story is: Autriche-Hongrie (how do you said in english? [;)]) sent an ultimatum to Serbia because of the assassination of François Ferdinand.
Russia defended Serbia (and mobilized) because they both are slavians.
Then Germany declared war on Russia, on France, Britain did the same... and we know the rest of the story [:(]

I found on my grand parents papers, some old school books from that period: 1910-1914. Some things are amazing.
For instance, some songs openly spoke about "killing germans" who were described as "barbarians", and "the duty of a good citizen was to kill Germans and die for France",.etc...
I guess it was the same thing in Germany or Britain.
Actually, I don't think it has sense to search who are on war on the beginning of the game since each big countries involved wanted a war, no matter who declared war historically [:(]
So; I guess game designers should have made some "adjustements" for gameplay, even it is historically false

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Berkut
I could understand the game starting with Germany NOT at war with Belgium, and Britainnot at war with Germany, and France and Germany at war.

Germany not at war with Belgium, but at war with britain?

Makes no sense.

John Keegan in his "The First World War" book makes it clear that up to the violation of Belgium's neutrality by Germany Britain was uncommitted - to the despair of the French.

Whether or not they'd maybe enter at some later date for some other reason is open to speculation, but at the beginning of August 1914 the only way to make Britain declare war on Germany was by Germany to invade Belgium.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Berkut]

Britain went to war with Germany as a result of the German invasion of Belgium. It is likely they would have ended up at war anyway, but not so soon.

Now, you can maybe make some arguments about all the cause and effect involved, but a good source for this game would seem to be the book it is named after, we could start by reading that.

There was a sequence of events here. Yeah, you can say that maybe Germany should not start at war with France, but then you don't have a game - although the idea is rather intriguing.

Anyway, you have to place your start point *somewhere* in the timeline.

And there does not exist a point in the historical timeline where Germany was at war with Britain but NOT invading Belgium. That point simply does not exist. I can see arguments for many different points, based on what the game is trying to accomplish. I cannot understand one for choosing a point that never existed.

[sol_invictus]

I guess that Frank assumed that Britain would have declared war shortly after Germany and France were at war, but wanted to give Germany the option of invading Belgium; in case the player wanted to try an East Front gambit. Ideally, imo, if Germany doesn't invade Belgium, Britain's entry should be delayed a turn or two, and become increasingly likely each subsequent turn. That would add some uncertainty into the mix and would make for some good gameplay. Over a year ago, Frank did mention that he was considering a modified British entry if Germany didn't invade Belgium, but I haven't heard him or the beta testers say a thing about that since then. I imagine it was a gameplay fudge.

[Berkut]

A real nice way of doing things would be to allow GB to enter, but reduce their commitment. As it was the strenght of teh BEF was reduced from pre-war plans to begin with.

This would work out ok for balance, since presumably the French would then have a shorter fron to defend.

Of course, at this point we are into the realm of game scope decisions. There are a LOT of different things you could do with this.

[Pandemic]

It is of course fact that had Germany not invaded Belgium Britain would not be at war with Germany straight away / first few weeks. Britain always for hundreds of years fought wars to maintain the balance of power in Europe, especially reguarding the inavasion of 'minor' countries and maintain naval supremacy.

Germany challenged Britain on 2 areas - colonies although this wasnt a huge issue but also on capital ships and this was. However Britain also didnt want to see France / Russia dominating central Europe.

So it is somewhat difficult to speculate what happens during later 1914 had Germany not attacked 'minor' countries. Even worse if France does? By then the massive casulties may have put off British public opinion going to war against anyone.

[SMK-at-work]

The British don't have much commitment anyway until mid 1915.
 

[Bossy573]

Could be a play balance issue as well.

It would be nice to have a "what if" scenario where Britain hangs on the fence a bit. I've read several books which contend Britain would have gone to war anyway. The issue for Britain was never Belgium, it was German dominion in Europe. Belgium just provided a fantastic excuse to get in quickly, and united.

[Dirtdog20]

ORIGINAL: Bossy573

Could be a play balance issue as well.

It would be nice to have a "what if" scenario where Britain hangs on the fence a bit. I've read several books which contend Britain would have gone to war anyway. The issue for Britain was never Belgium, it was German dominion in Europe. Belgium just provided a fantastic excuse to get in quickly, and united.

Even then several members of the cabinet resigned in protest.

[7th Somersets]

There was a debate about this on the beta forum. I believe that the idea behind having Britain involved at the start is that the game would otherwise be another Franco-Prussian war and not WW1.
 
There was some suggestion that British land deployment might be curtailed if Belgium was not invaded.
I can't remember what the outcome was in that regard.
 
 

[Bossy573]

ORIGINAL: 7th Somersets

I believe that the idea behind having Britain involved at the start is that the game would otherwise be another Franco-Prussian war and not WW1.

You have to figure the Huns roll to an easy victory without Britain in the picture.

A truly staggering "what if" as well. Germany victorious in Europe, France prostrate and irrelevant, Russia smashed, perhaps broken up, a German super-state facing a still undefeated and uncommitted Britain, the U.S. hiding behind a curtain across the pond. What a weird world that would have been......