gunfight at Flavion

[Arthurmoment]

More like slaughter at Rosee. How are you supposed to take out those Frenchie tanks with your little panzers? This isn't really a thread - just frustration at not being able to live up to Rommel's expectation of me! Has anyone one gained a Major Victory on this one? I keep getting shot to pieces...

[big dawg]

I had my a$$ handed to me too.
 
You win some & loose some. 

[1925frank]

I was hoping someone else would provide some suggestions.  It's been a long time since I've played that one, and I'm not sure if I've ever won a major victory, but I think I've managed a minor victory.
 
The French B1-bis require, I believe, 50 action points to fire.  That means if they move at all, they can only fire once.  If you can, try to get them to fire at your while you're in a village or woods and preferably at a distance, then rush them with a Panzer 38(t) and fire at close range and hope for a disruption.  If you've got a Panzer IV handy, use it to assault an isolated B1-bis, preferable with a friendly unit on the far side, even if it can't assault, so you have a chance of capturing the B1-bis.  I think assaulting the B1-bis without a friendly unit on the far side might do more harm than good, because it'll just retreat, and then it'll get to fire at you at close range on its next turn.  I think the Panzer IIs are very mobile, and they can be used to box in the B1-bis as well.  If you can, after you've fired and assaulted, try to get your tanks as far away as possible and, again, preferably in a village or woods before you hit the "Next Turn" button.
 
I don't recall if the Germans have any Panzer III tanks, but they tend to be better against hard targets.  I think these early Panzer IVs are relatively poor against hard targets but are very good at assaults, which is why I'd try and reserve them for your assaults.
 
If you can find the French HQ and, if nothing else, keep it moving, you stand a chance of engaging the B1-bis while they are low on ammo, which might also even the odds a bit. 
 
If you get a B1-bis disrupted, that evens the odds too, so keep at it and try, if nothing else, to keep it disrupted. 
 
I'd welcome some strategy tips as well, because, as I mentioned above, I don't believe I ever mastered this scenario.
 
 

[Arthurmoment]

Thank you for the tips and advice Frank. If I can crack this one I think it will set me in good stead for the campaigns. This forum is extremely useful. Thanks to everyone who takes the time to help.
John

[junk2drive]

I played this as French vs big dawg PBEM with the TS version. IIRC we played with armour facing rules on and the dawg had some success taking out my B1 bis with rear shots after getting them to retreat.
 
It did seem to be a very one sided scenario. Move on to something else and try again after you gain some experience. Or be satisfied with a minor loss instead of a major loss [:D]

[Krec]

Got to get flank and rear shots if possible[:D] ,  as stated 50 to fire means you have moble advatage[;)] .   never frontal shots[:-] ,  they are a waste .  Tough scen for sure[X(].
 

[1925frank]

I don't know if Arthurmoment is playing against the AI or a human.  If he's playing against the AI, then the armor-facing rule should be off. 
 
I don't think the scenario was designed for human v. human.  One of the things that gives the German player hope is he is playing against the AI, and the AI will usually accomodate you with poor opportunity-fire shots if you can figure out a way to coax a few bad shots off away from your main tanks.
 
I don't know if the Germans have smoke, but if they do, that too can be used.  Smoke can block sight, or it can reduce the effective firepower going out or going into a hex.  Smoke doesn't affect assaults. 
 
If you see the French tanks move, I think that means they'll have, at most, only one opportunity-fire shot.
 
If I remember correctly, a lot of the French tanks are in the open in the middle of the map early in the game and, thanks to the AI, will remain in the open.
 
I won't say where the French HQs are, but you can probably figure that out by the Victory Point hexes.  Now, whether you can get tanks there to harrass the French HQs is another question.

[asiaticus]

Check out this post about the real battle.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=76649

If you get a major win as the Germans you will be doing way better than historicical.

The smart play was probably Rommel's. Bypass them and shoot up their supply lines so they run out of gas.

[vadersson]

I played this one too recently.  I got a draw.  I was pounding those darn tanks and they took all I had and more.  The flavor text of the scenario makes me thinkg that with armor facing on it would be more interesting, but the computer is not able to handle that.  I normally leave AFR off, but in this case it might be needed.

Good luck,
Duncan

[1925frank]

Thank you, Asiaticus.
 
Arthurmoment, that should be some consolation.  It wasn't easy for the Germans either.
 
I'm not sure if the scenario designer attempted to reflect the fact the French were very low on supplies.  There's one other scenario from the May-June Campaign where the Germans had outrun their supply, and the French attacked them, and you play as the Germans.  The out-of-supply status was reflected by having the German units start the game with the empty bullet (low on supply) and with the German HQs exposed, which required moving them and further delaying the resupply of the German units.  I believe the Germans started with many units disrupted and some with their morale lowered a couple steps, which meant those units required several turns to regain their nondisrupted status.  With the fog of war on, I know you can tell if an enemy unit is disrupted, but I don't recall if you can tell if it is out of supply.  I know you can't tell its morale.  If you study the "Gunfight at Flavion" scenario so you can see the status of the French tanks, you might conclude you have to strike early and hard, while they are low on ammo and disrupted.  My recollection is the French do not start disrupted, and I have no clue whether they start low on supply.

[1925frank]

ORIGINAL: vadersson

I played this one too recently.  I got a draw.  I was pounding those darn tanks and they took all I had and more.  The flavor text of the scenario makes me thinkg that with armor facing on it would be more interesting, but the computer is not able to handle that.  I normally leave AFR off, but in this case it might be needed.

Good luck,
Duncan

What I like about the scenario is it illustrates the Germans weren't fighting with a technological advantage. In many respects, their tanks were inferior. I think even the French light tanks have defense values of 6, which is two points better than anything the Germans had.

When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941, they encounted the T34, which was, I guess, a whole generation better than anything the Germans had.

I guess the assumption is that a person can win a major victory in every scenario, but I'm not sure that's true. A reviewer of "Beyond the Dnieper" (a different Matrix product) thought a draw was the best the German player could do. There's an East Front scenario where you play as the Soviets and you lead a cavalry charge against Geman machine guns. There were a couple Divided Ground scenarios that I thought were simply unwinnable. Some scenarios are designed to teach you something that you can only profit from when you play some other scenario. I don't know if anyone else shares this view. It might just be my inability to master the game.

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

It might just be my inability to master the game.

I have played this game since its first release and I have yet to master it.

Jason Petho

[junk2drive]

My assumption on the Armour Facing Rules is that the AI cannot plan for shooting you in the rear or rotate it's armour to prevent you from rear shots.
 
The recommendation to not play with AFR vs AI is to give the AI a better chance.
 
In this scen, I doubt that you can roll a kill against the front of a Char B1 bis. If only the French had...

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

My assumption on the Armour Facing Rules is that the AI cannot plan for shooting you in the rear or rotate it's armour to prevent you from rear shots.

That is correct.

Jason Petho

[TAIL GUNNER]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

My assumption on the Armour Facing Rules is that the AI cannot plan for shooting you in the rear or rotate it's armour to prevent you from rear shots.

The recommendation to not play with AFR vs AI is to give the AI a better chance.

In this scen, I doubt that you can roll a kill against the front of a Char B1 bis. If only the French had...

I think it should be an exception in this scenario.

It would more accurately simulate the German's superior armor doctrine.
I remember reading about some battle (maybe this one) where the Germans would literally "plink" the slow moving French tanks from all angles with 37 and 20mm shells until the French lost their nerve and abandoned or surrendered their Chars.
Vehicle abandonment due to low morale is well represented in Steel Panthers.....not sure if it could work in CS.
Would be cool though![8D]

Oh, and don't forget about the German leaders in this scenario. The Regiment leader has a "4" rating....makes a difference!

[Arthurmoment]

Hello everyone!

Whilst I've been grinding out another famous minor defeat you've all been busy leaving posts that make me feel an awful lot better. I think the most telling comment was that a major victory is not actually achievable in every scenario. That makes sense - I'd not really thought about it like that - its easy to forget that these are designed to reflect reality but I think (up to now) I had thought a major victory was the aim of "the game". I like this game - I think it is going take a long time to master (if ever).

Many thanks

John

[1925frank]

ORIGINAL: Juggalo
Oh, and don't forget about the German leaders in this scenario. The Regiment leader has a "4" rating....makes a difference!

There you go! Now that's good advice. That "4" leader would be an incredibly useful card to play.

Arthurmoment didn't qualify his request to only good advice, which was why I felt qualified to chime in.

[Krec]

what i do in this one is, disrupt, surround and capture.  you can pull this one out with this tech.  altlthough against a human i think this scen is almost impossible to win as Gmen.   The Ai will help you out by charging straight into your traps!![:D]  

[1925frank]

I replayed "Gunfight at Flavion."  I ended up with a minor loss.  If I hadn't carelessly lost a battalion HQ, I would have had a draw. 
 
Maybe I wasn't so careless in losing my battalion HQ.  Maybe the French were lucky.  Both SPs lost in one shot from a distance of about six hexes. 
 
I knocked out the French battalion HQ very early. 
 
I took the northern 50 point Victory Hex early, and, basically, the AI never mounted a serious counterattack.  Because of the height advantage and the woods, I could defend it well.
 
I took the southern 25 point Victory Hex next, and the AI mounted repeated counterattacks.  I hid in the village hex, blasted away when the B1-bis retook the Victory Hex, retook the Victory Hex, and retreated back into the village hex to repeat the process.  I managed to keep the Victory Hex.
 
I didn't recall the large number of B1-bis platoons.  Encircling disrupted platoons was difficult because the AI had the B1-bis platoons layered, and when my tanks sought to encircle, they'd get blasted from the second echelon of B1-bis tanks that were waiting in the rear.
 
I was never able to mount an attack on the eastern 50-point Victory Hex.
 
Humbled.
 
 

[1925frank]

Some additional thoughts on my first replay of "Gunfight at Flavion" in years:
 
I think I ended up with 83 points.  When you subtract the 75 points for the Victory Hexes, that leaves an 8-point advantage in the actual fighting.  I think the battalion HQ I lost was worth 24 points (each step valued at 12), so, if I hadn't lost it, I had a 32-point advantage in the actual fighting.  I tried to always engage from higher elevation, from woods or villages, or from behind stone walls. 
 
I was able to get off some successful assaults, but it was difficult for the reasons set out in my prior post, but there was another reason.  The B1-bis traveled usually in 3 platoons.  To assault successfully, I usually would want all three platoons disrupted, but getting all three disrupted at one time was difficult to do.  After getting all three disrupted, you still had to have sufficient forces to assault.
 
To get a major victory, you'd need all three victory hexes, valued at 125 points total, and a 75 point victory margin in the actual fighting.