Siberians

[SMK-at-work]

We had a little "discssion" a while back about thte numbers and effect of Siberian units arriving at the West in late 1941, and I said I was waiting for some into to arrive.

WEll it finally arrived in the form of Vol VIII of Charles Sharp's series on the Soviet OOB for WW2 - this volume deals with all hte pre-war Soviet Rifle Divisions.

By taking hte OOB of the Far East Front from Glantz's "Stumbling Collossus" I have put together the following:

The following RD's were in the Far Eastern Army on22 June 41 - there were also other units of course, but I've only got the volume dealing with RD's at the moment.

3rd - stayed in the far east all war - sent 14,000 replacements to the front 41-43
12 - stayed in far east
21 - arrived in the west September - defended Svir River vs Finns, stayed in Finnish areas all war.
22 - Stayed in far east all war
26 - went into action "off the rails" 6 Sept 41 at Luzhno-Krasnya in 11th army - suffered heavy casualties
32 - had fought at Lake Khasan in 1938, arrived Moscow area 9-12 October at full pre-war strength - 15,000 men, 8600 rifles (ie riflemen), 872 vehicles, 444 mg's, 286 artillery pieces and mortars, went into action on Borodino battlefield on 13 Oct accompanied by some smaller units & fought 10 Pz & Das Reich to a halt. was the 19th before any more divisions arrived. Was at 1/2 strength by November. Took part in Moscow counteroffensive.
35 - stayed in far east
39 - ditto
40 - fought at Lake Khasan 1938, stayed in far east
59 - stayed in far east
66 - ditto
78 - arrived in west 31 October 41, joined 16 army. Was 14,000 strong including many party members and Komsomols. Had 130 arty pieces, 60 mortars 81-120mm, 450 trucks. stopped 3 Pz Groups advance on Volokolmask for 1st 2 weeks of November. Became 3rd Guards RD on 26 Nov.
79 - Stationed on Sakhalin Island for the whole war - occupied sthn half of the island in 1945
92 - started moving west 14 Oct, arrived in west in time to go into action 30 Oct with 4th army near Tuikvin. Had over 13,000 men, 60 T-26 tanks, 40 45mm AT guns, 140 76-152mm arty and mortars, 8 76mm AA guns, 20 AA machineguns when left far east. By end of december its 3 rifle regiments commanded 331 men total.
105 - stayed in far east

So a total of 5 rifle divisions were sent west!! Of these figures are given for 3 showing them all to be at very strong pre-war establishments which are much stronger than those one expects from other RD's at the time.

The source notes for most of the divisions that remained in the far east that they retained their large pre-war organisations into 1942 before adopting smaller wartime ones, and presumably releasing the surplus troops.

As I said above I don't have the info on the various other divisions in the far east - there was a mountain and a cavalry division, a tank corps of 2 tank and 1 mech division, another tank and mech division, a few brigades.

I'll do a similar list for the other non-European military districts shortly.

[SMK-at-work]

Rifle divisions of the Trans-Baikal Military District:

65 - arrived near Tikhvin by 15 November with full pre-war org, in 4th army, and was one of the main units that drove hte Germans back from there in Nov-Dec.
93 - known/named as the "East Siberian" division.  Arrived in 43rd army from 21 October, took part in attacks of early December.
94 - stayed in Trans Baikal
114 - faced the Finns in Karelia from September


The Central Asian Military district
238 - forming in Khazakhstan as war was declared, finished forming using July 41 TOE (10,800 men vs 14,000 for pre war ones), sent to Leninsk north of Tula and straight into action on the 10th of October, participated in the winter counter attacks

Central Asian MD also had 3 mountain rifle divisions, a mechanised corps (2 tank div, 1 motorised), and 3 mountain cavalry divisions..

And that's it - that's every rifle division west of the Urals on 22 June 1941 accounted for. 

A total of 9 of them sere sent to the west, of which 2 went to face the Finns. Only 1 was a veteran of any clashes with the Japanese pre-war, and one non-Siberian division was brand new.

Assuming the 6 "old" divisions not facing the Finns were all up around 13-14,000 men at full pre-war TOE's that's 90-95,000 men.

Other troops I don't have the info for are 2 Mech Corps (each 2 tank and 1 motor rifle div's), another tank and motorised divisoin, 4 mountain rifle divisions and 4 cavalry divisions.

For the 2 Mech Corps Glantz gives some figures for their tank strengths on 22 June - 27 Mech Corps in the Central Asian MD had 356 tanks, 30 Mech Corps in the Far East had 2969.  he also notes that the 27th was destroyed in the Viazma pocket by October 41.

Found another - the 239th motorised rifle division of the 30 Mech Corps from the Far East actually never finished forming as a motorised unit, and instead  became the 239th Rifle Division.  It arrived at 10 (reserve) army south east of Moscow on 21 November, but was in such poor condition that it was left out of the attack in early December - and that was with the 10th army complaining that it's other divisions were in no state to attack (ie it was really bad!!)  Eventually joined the offensive in late December and fought under both 10 and 50th armies.

So make that 100-105,000 men in rifle divisions sent from east of the Urals in 1941.

[IrishGuards]

Yep .. But I always prefer to look at the big picture on events .. Especially on this scale ..
Nay Europa .. Or WiE .. Certainly not WiF .. [&o]
MV is correct in his post .. [:'(]
Let's begin with the Russian buildup in the Far East .. 39 ..?? Wee fight witht the Japs ..
OOB figures ..???  . ... After being redeployed ..????
This will give a more complete picture .. Its like playing a game .. You only play a limited amount of really good games ... Thats all ya know .. [X(]
Reading Waikiki is not a realistic comparison compared to having READ .. [8|] Completely .. Many different accounts .. [:-]
Besides the fact of having a broad and firm understanding of comparitive Balance of Power .. [&:]
Thats called Wargaming .... [:D]
IDG
 

[SMK-at-work]

The "wee fight with the japs" didn't involve any build up at all - it was done entirely with forces that were already there - 3 rifle divisions, a couple of tank brigades and a few other brigade sized units.

I have no idea what hte rest of your post is about??!![&:]

[IrishGuards]

Wow ... are you serious .. [:-]
Zhukov .. when deployed to the Far East to deal with the situation ... I guess you don't know this either eh .. !!
From memory alone .. Here goes ..
Brought in 1000 Tanks .. 1500 Air .. Not to mention ground troops ... [X(]
I will look it up in Total War tomorrow and quote it .. OK ..
I guess thats what happens when you go by Waikiki ... [:D]
Oh and I am starting to understand clearly that you nay understand .. Oh Dear .. [:'(]
IDG

[SMK-at-work]

Zhukov had 2 tank brigades and a Mongolian tank battalion totalling 304 tanks (according to Zhukov's memoirs, page 183 of vol 1, 1985 edition, Progress Publishers), and about 500 aircraft (the VVS order of battle is at http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/Geor ... battle.htm)

Where did hte figures you gave come from?

Certainly the forces at Khalkin Gol had been increased - but they were troops, aircraft and tanks already in the same area - ie the Far Eastern Front.

And you might want to look at where some of the wiki info comes from before you dis it so merrily - papers from the US General Staff College for example, form the basis of the article on Khalkin Gol - I suggest you go look at those links. They're really quite informative.

[IrishGuards]

Ire will be going to the library .. or the brethrens .. he has my books ... lots of them ...
As far as CEAW's limitations in the game structure ... just give Russia 3 corps .. tank .. mot and inf w a leader as siberian reinf ..
IDG